Ugly hooves!

[Emilieu]

Shoes have been off since September and horse is doing well - I'm not riding him but he is walking out soundly on all surfaces and no longer flinching at stones. The plan is to keep him barefoot until February and then shoe for work (he didn't cope with work without shoes, see previous threads if you are interested but I promise I tried!) The only problem is his feet are sooooo ugly right now. The new hoof that is growing in looks fab - strong, healthy, good angle - but the bottom of his feet where the last of the old hoof remains is awful. It is now starting to come away in slightly alarming chunks and his toes are all ragged. He is still sound but I am worried that the chunks will leave his white line exposed and lead to an abscess (he is v. prone to them at the best of times). Is this normal for three months in or should I call the farrier to have a look at them? Any tips for management? I'm thinking soaking them might help?

 

[HufflyPuffly]

I'd say totally normal, Doodle had a super alarming angle change which we've finally grown out. Maybe keep on top of cleaning them and thrush treatment to try and minimize the risk of infection of grit travelling up the white line?

I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will be along soon .

 

[Emilieu]

Thanks Alex, that is exactly what I am thinking. Will see what the local tack shop has to offer in terms of products and get scrubbing them

 

[ester]

I wouldn't soak or scrub too hard get a very small screwdriver to remove any bits of grit and treat with red horse sole cleanse, I'd be using it fairly regularly in frog too at this stage

 

[stencilface]

I use a clench if I need to remove small stones from the white line, then if needed you can pack them with artimud or similar from red horse. The cracked bits I wouldn't worry about.

 

[paddy555]

I wouldn't soak, feet are wet enough in the winter.
I would try and sort the cracked bits to try and prevent further cracking and breaking off. It will also make them look a lot nicer!
If you have an old rasp use that otherwise you could get a sanding block (around a fiver from B & Q) and run that around the edges as you would use an emery board. By providing a smooth, rolling edge you will help prevent chipping.

 

[wild at hoof]

He is currently standing in weak horn. Sometimes they need trimming more often to prevent breakages and chips until you have healthy hoof to stand on.

You could try soaking in Milton solution to kill any bacteria which may be present but it's likely to just be weak horn that was grown while the hoof was compromised with a shoe.

On the note of trimming if he top of the foot is growing down at a different angle sometimes you have to bring the toe back so the mechanical forces don't then pull the growth back to where it's always been. That's why going barefoot is more than just pulling shoes off ...

 

[Landcruiser]

Whatever you do, don't use Keratex or any other hoof hardening product. And as Wild At Hoof says, more frequent trims might be in order at this stage.

 

[Emilieu]

Thank you. I have run the rasp around them the last few nights and they certainly look better. Keeping them as grit free as I can. Out of interest Landcruiser, why would you avoid Keratex?

 

[Goldenstar]

I pick little stones and bits of grit with a clench .
It's normal for them to look terrible when they are cracking back my horses take just under three months to get the nail holes out then they look better .
If you possibly can wait to shoe until the new horn gets down to the bottom .
I have found keratex useful at certain stages my trimmer is relaxed about using it too .

 

[Emilieu]

I pick little stones and bits of grit with a clench .
It's normal for them to look terrible when they are cracking back my horses take just under three months to get the nail holes out then they look better .
If you possibly can wait to shoe until the new horn gets down to the bottom .
I have found keratex useful at certain stages my trimmer is relaxed about using it too .

My farrier agrees with you GS. I had originally planned to have him shod this week but we have agreed to wait until Spring. I used Keratex in the first few weeks and fund it made a huge difference to him. He doesn't need it so much now

 

[Goldenstar]

My farrier agrees with you GS. I had originally planned to have him shod this week but we have agreed to wait until Spring. I used Keratex in the first few weeks and fund it made a huge difference to him. He doesn't need it so much now

You know if keratex is keeping him comfortable don't let people put off using many things can be slightly less than ideal and still be the right thing in your situation .
Your putting it on his feet not bathing his skin in it .
My vet my farrier and my trimmer all take this relaxed view.
It's a great idea to give the farrier a hole free foot to work with if you can .

 

[Thorwood]

Studies have shown that topical hoof applications that contain formaldehyde (ie keratex hoof hardener) actually dry out the hoof making it appear tougher, however the process of drying actually creates tiny fissures that are easily infected.

they have shown that healthy hooves are least affected but those with existing issues can actually deteriorate very quickly.

Same goes for products with pine tars and oils.

in my opinion i wouldnt put anything on my horses feet that i would be prepared to get on my hands ...

 

[ycbm]

Studies have shown that topical hoof applications that contain formaldehyde (ie keratex hoof hardener) actually dry out the hoof making it appear tougher, however the process of drying actually creates tiny fissures that are easily infected.

they have shown that healthy hooves are least affected but those with existing issues can actually deteriorate very quickly.

Same goes for products with pine tars and oils.

in my opinion i wouldnt put anything on my horses feet that i would be prepared to get on my hands ...

Can you point us to those studies please?

My experience is that the drier the weather and the ground and the drier horse hooves are, the stronger they are. Next best is possibly constant damp. Wet/dry/wet/dry seems to cause most problems.


I wouldn't put nail varnish remover on my hands, but I'd use it on my nails. I am another user (and confirmed barefooter) who has seen formaldehyde help, though I would never pay keratex over £40 a litre for an 8% solution. If I need it I get a litre of sheep foot dip from a farmer (35%) and water it down with three parts water. Works just as well.

 

[ycbm]

On the note of trimming if he top of the foot is growing down at a different angle sometimes you have to bring the toe back so the mechanical forces don't then pull the growth back to where it's always been. That's why going barefoot is more than just pulling shoes off ...

There are alternative views on this. At Rockley they never trim toes back, and they never see the toe pull the foot forward. It just comes back when it's ready. That's my experience too, but if you don't have a track system like they do, you have to get enough movement on abrasive surfaces into the feet some other way. With rehab horses, I spend hours hand walking them.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

We left Doodle's feet as well, her extreme angle change never altered despite the toe, the ex-farrier said it would revert as well but she's nearly all done now and her feet look so much better!

Adding: that I rehabbed her myself and was somewhat tardy with walking her , she's done ok despite me .

 

[Landcruiser]

Sorry, I only just got back to this thread and see that someone else has stepped in with an answer. My trimmer says that keratex causes the hoof to become brittle and stop it breathing properly, and as a hoof is meant to flex and Keratex works against this, it can also interfere with the natural function. Plus it costs a fortune, and I wouldn't want to be using formaldehyde on a living creature since it has a probable cancer risk.

 

[wild at hoof]

http://www.thehorse.com/articles/13369/hoof-dressings-what-studies-show

for one.

And also personal experience ... nail varish remover isnt formaldehyde - its acetone ... that dries and removes oils - very different!

I have use nail harder on my own very strong nails - just to test it ... on one hand - i worked in an office at the time and was bored ..

the next week 3 nails broke on the hand i had painted with nail hardener (formalydehyde) ... my nails NEVER break ... and they wernt even long and i wasnt doing anything daft (unusually!)

I used to use keratex on the recommendation of my farrier years ago ... before i read what was in it and understood why it worked...

its the same as putting wedges on a horse with low heels - it stop the low heels being a problem but doesnt fix the heels.

Using a drying/hardening agent will stop the soles being soft but it wont encourage the sole to thicken.

 

[wild at hoof]

There are alternative views on this. At Rockley they never trim toes back, and they never see the toe pull the foot forward. It just comes back when it's ready. That's my experience too, but if you don't have a track system like they do, you have to get enough movement on abrasive surfaces into the feet some other way. With rehab horses, I spend hours hand walking them.

YCBM, i know you are friends with Nic at Rockley, and i am definitely not debating the amazing work they do.

However, i have found 100% (BIG CLAIM but its true!) of the horses i trim that display pathologies such as run forward toes and underrun heels improve when bringing the break over back. It was what i was taught and trained to do and it works. Obviously walking over different surfaces will also do this too.

I would love all my clients to have track systems, but unfortunately they dont, so we have to mimic what we can with a trim. But what i do have is alot of healthy happy horses out eventing and competing ... so i cant be doing too bad ...

 

[paddy555]

However, i have found 100% (BIG CLAIM but its true!) of the horses i trim that display pathologies such as run forward toes and underrun heels improve when bringing the break over back. It was what i was taught and trained to do and it works. Obviously walking over different surfaces will also do this too.

.

Maybe it is different if you have a hard track, I don't know as I don't have one. I have however found it works just as well and probably more rapidly by trimming the break over back.

 

[ycbm]

YCBM, i know you are friends with Nic at Rockley, and i am definitely not debating the amazing work they do.

However, i have found 100% (BIG CLAIM but its true!) of the horses i trim that display pathologies such as run forward toes and underrun heels improve when bringing the break over back. It was what i was taught and trained to do and it works. Obviously walking over different surfaces will also do this too.

I would love all my clients to have track systems, but unfortunately they dont, so we have to mimic what we can with a trim. But what i do have is alot of healthy happy horses out eventing and competing ... so i cant be doing too bad ...

They would have improved whether you trimmed the toes or not.

The cure for a long toe is in the strengthening of the heels, not in the cutting back of the toe.

A track system is not a requirement, it just shortens the transition time.

 

[ycbm]

http://www.thehorse.com/articles/13369/hoof-dressings-what-studies-show

I would need to see the published study for this to convince me. As this article reads, the research into formaldehyde was done on the hooves of dead horses. It does not say what strength was used. They then claimed that what they saw in dead hooves would cause increased levels of infection in live horses. That's one claim too far for any serious study to make - for a start it doesn't prove that the same effects will be seen in live hooves, and it doesn't prove that live horses get more infections. It doesn't take into account the fact that formaldehyde is an extremely powerful disinfecting agent and if use is continued until a healthy foot has grown down, the formaldehyde itself will stop infections until such time as the hoof is in good shape to avoid them anyway. And it doesn't balance the risk of increased brittleness with a reduction in bruising (which can cause abscesses) due to harder soles.

Keratex has been in use for thirty years. I think we would be seeing some court cases by now if the scare stores we hear about it were true.

I will continue to support short term use of formaldehyde to help a transitioning horse until better studies have been done on significant numbers of live horses.

 

[FfionWinnie]

I would never use formaldehyde on hooves. Have seen the effects of it on sheep and just wouldn't ever use it on a horse. It masks problems in sheep but stores them up for later!

 

[ycbm]

I would never use formaldehyde on hooves. Have seen the effects of it on sheep and just wouldn't ever use it on a horse. It masks problems in sheep but stores them up for later!

My sheep farming friend says the same, that it seals in infection that then gets worse before it breaks out. I think the difference is that he runs two hundred sheep through a foot bath without checking them first. No-one I know would put formaldehyde into an existing infection in a horse's foot. I suspect the keratex instructions specifically say not to do so.

 

[wild at hoof]

They would have improved whether you trimmed the toes or not.

The cure for a long toe is in the strengthening of the heels, not in the cutting back of the toe.

A track system is not a requirement, it just shortens the transition time.

May I ask how many horses you have trimmed where this has worked?

I recently took on a horse who is ridden barefoot around the local forestry about 6 times per week ... completely sound and pretty much self trims. Was being trimmed by a daep. I've trimmed her 3 times now.
The first trim I noted to the owner the long toes, and said what I was going to do re bringing break over back.
3 trims in and her feet are round. And best of all she hasn't tripped once while being ridden since I have been trimming her that way.
I can send you pics if you like.

So your theory of 'that would happen anyway' is incorrect.

Another note. It always seems to be you questioning my advice when it comes to trimming . May I ask where you trained as a trimmer?

 

[wild at hoof]

I would need to see the published study for this to convince me. As this article reads, the research into formaldehyde was done on the hooves of dead horses. It does not say what strength was used. They then claimed that what they saw in dead hooves would cause increased levels of infection in live horses. That's one claim too far for any serious study to make - for a start it doesn't prove that the same effects will be seen in live hooves, and it doesn't prove that live horses get more infections. It doesn't take into account the fact that formaldehyde is an extremely powerful disinfecting agent and if use is continued until a healthy foot has grown down, the formaldehyde itself will stop infections until such time as the hoof is in good shape to avoid them anyway. And it doesn't balance the risk of increased brittleness with a reduction in bruising (which can cause abscesses) due to harder soles.

Keratex has been in use for thirty years. I think we would be seeing some court cases by now if the scare stores we hear about it were true.

I will continue to support short term use of formaldehyde to help a transitioning horse until better studies have been done on significant numbers of live horses.

Just because something has been used for 30 years doesn't make it ok. If that was he logic we'd all be keeping our horses shod!

Also smoking was good for you until recently!

So again your theory is slightly skewed lol.

I find it strange that you promote natural movement to trim but are then happy to put a hideous chemical on your horses feet... doesn't make sense

 

[ycbm]

Just because something has been used for 30 years doesn't make it ok. If that was he logic we'd all be keeping our horses shod!

Also smoking was good for you until recently!

So again your theory is slightly skewed lol.

I find it strange that you promote natural movement to trim but are then happy to put a hideous chemical on your horses feet... doesn't make sense

I support what I see work. There are plenty of 'hideous chemicals' that have good uses. My OH takes rat poison every day to keep him alive

 

[ycbm]

May I ask how many horses you have trimmed where this has worked?

About fifteen,-personally. Seen more than a hundred.

I recently took on a horse who is ridden barefoot around the local forestry about 6 times per week ... completely sound and pretty much self trims. Was being trimmed by a daep. I've trimmed her 3 times now.
The first trim I noted to the owner the long toes, and said what I was going to do re bringing break over back.
3 trims in and her feet are round. And best of all she hasn't tripped once while being ridden since I have been trimming her that way.
I can send you pics if you like.

No thank you. I don't find samples of one where you don't know what was being done to the feet by the previous trimmer helpful. I don't define a horse who needs its toes rasped back as self trimming. Self trimming usually requires abrasive surfaces which would have removed those toes. Not everyone has the facilities to do it, and some horses never seem to manage to keep on top of their growth rate, like Ester's Frank.

Another note. It always seems to be you questioning my advice when it comes to trimming . May I ask where you trained as a trimmer?

It's always me because I speak my mind and most forum users shy away from potential confrontation. I challenged you because there is another point of view, supported by a large amount of evidence.

I am not 'trained' at all, but I've read the same books and papers you've read. And I have more experience of really hard work with barefoot horses, hunting and competing BE a bigger variety of horses with no shoes on than anyone else I know of. If you don't feel what I write is correct, then challenge it just as I do you. That's what the forum is for.

 

[wild at hoof]

About fifteen,-personally. Seen more than a hundred.



No thank you. I don't find samples of one where you don't know what was being done to the feet by the previous trimmer helpful. I don't define a horse who needs its toes rasped back as self trimming. Self trimming usually requires abrasive surfaces which would have removed those toes. Not everyone has the facilities to do it, and some horses never seem to manage to keep on top of their growth rate, like Ester's Frank.



It's always me because I speak my mind and most forum users shy away from potential confrontation. I challenged you because there is another point of view, supported by a large amount of evidence.

I am not 'trained' at all, but I've read the same books and papers you've read. And I have more experience of really hard work with barefoot horses, hunting and competing BE a bigger variety of horses with no shoes on than anyone else I know of. If you don't feel what I write is correct, then challenge it just as I do you. That's what the forum is for.

That is fine.

I also have experience of horses competing... especially my own clients hunting and competing barefoot at BE level.

Please don't assume that people doing things differently to yourself are wrong. Which is kind of what you are doing.

The horse I refer to is ridden on very abrasive surfaces daily ... as are the other horses. But as you say some horses never manage to keep on top of it ... which Is why as a trimmer I help them out.

I certainly don't need you to tell me what I'm doing is right. I have plenty of happy clients and horses that do that for me. And I certainly won't shy away from confrontation. Especially when I pride myself in being very open minded to all approaches ... and especially when I have actually agreed with you on the track method lol.

It would seem that you are a one person rockley marketing team on here lol. They are pretty awesome at what they do ... I'm not sure they need the advertising

 

[ycbm]

I know you haven't been on the forum long, but to call me a one person Rockley marketing team . There must be thirty of us on HHO, at least. And no, they don't need advertising. They've had a waiting list for as long as I can remember.

I should remember to preface some of my comments with 'I think', because that's all any of our posts are, what we think or believe. So in your toe example, I should have written 'i think they would have come back anyway' and not written it as if it was an absolute fact. I often forget to do that, my bad.

You seem to be taking this very personally for someone doing this for a living. Just discuss your ideas openly and we'll get along fine. I've asked you advice on another thread, if you haven't noticed it yet.