Ugly hooves!

Oh and by the way I agree ..: it doesn't matter what previous trimmer was doing. What does matter is that by your reckoning is that this horse should have perfect feet ... given its work routine over the surfaces it faces daily :.. but it doesn't ... well ... now it does ... but surfaces and walking alone didn't do that
 
wild at hoof said:
Oh and by the way I agree ..: it doesn't matter what previous trimmer was doing. What does matter is that by your reckoning is that this horse should have perfect feet ... given its work routine over the surfaces it faces daily :.. but it doesn't ... well ... now it does ... but surfaces and walking alone didn't do that
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I did not say that. For a start, it DOES matter what the previous trimmer was getting wrong. I'm in no position to judge what went on with that one horse. I have not seen the horse and I can't make any judgments about how it was kept and ridden.

My dilemma is, do I trust you, someone I don't know at all, to have described accurately exactly and completely how one horse has been managed, including by the previous trimmer, or do I trust what I have seen with my own eyes over and over and over again?

The main problem I had with the advice you gave, by the way, was not trimming the long toe. It was the assertion that a long toe can pull the whole foot forward into an under run shape. That I can't get my head around at all. And I politely pointed out that there was an alternative point of view, one which is well documented.
 
Why don't you think a long toe can pull the hoof capsule forward?

It's simple physics. The hoof cannot generate more hoof horn for a long toe, it's simply not possible. So the shape of the hoof changes to accommodate the fact the toe is forward from where it should be. That results in straighter quarters and often heels forward of where they should be. If you get a rubber ring, secure one side and pull the opposite you will see what it trying to describe.

I don't see why you should trust me at all. Although I trust everyone... which I guess is a flaw. I suppose one reason to trust me is that I don't hide behind a name on here. A quick google would tell you exactly who I am. Not that I suppose that would make a difference.

Again, I suggest you keep an open mind to different options where horses are concerned. As it would appear you lack that.

As for rat poison, it does the same thing to the rat as it does to your other half... it's just the dose is higher. That is why he dose is so controlled. Interspecies links are tedious... what's good for one is very often deadly to another. Thankfully chocolate and coffee is only poisonous to dogs!

Have you any studies to show formalydehyde being beneficial to living tissue?! Or evidence to show it isn't a carcinogen?
 
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wild at hoof said:
Why don't you think a long toe can pull the hoof capsule forward?

It's simple physics. The hoof cannot generate more hoof horn for a long toe, it's simply not possible. So the shape of the hoof changes to accommodate the fact the toe is forward from where it should be. That results in straighter quarters and often heels forward of where they should be. If you get a rubber ring, secure one side and pull the opposite you will see what it trying to describe.
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It's not simple physics. A horse's foot is capable of being stretched, but not like a rubber ring. It's perfectly possible to have a long toe with a heel that's in the right place. I've got a horse like it. It's physically totally possible for the hoof tubules at the toe to be at a different angle to those at the heel.

And of course a hoof can generate more hoof in one part of the foot than another. Laminitics do it all the time and anything which inflames the coronet band will produce the same result. There are horses everywhere with growth rings that are kinked, showing faster foot production in one area than another.

I don't see why you should trust me at all. Although I trust everyone... which I guess is a flaw. I suppose one reason to trust me is that I don't hide behind a name on here. A quick google would tell you exactly who I am. Not that I suppose that would make a difference.
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My name is cptrayes and you will see years of posts under that user name, which is now disabled and I can't use it.

Again, I suggest you keep an open mind to different options where horses are concerned. As it would appear you lack that.
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Ah, personal attack, the standard fallback of someone on the defensive. I suggest you take a couple of weeks non-stop, reading my barefoot posts from start to finish before starting with the personal insults. Can you please just discuss your ideas on a professional level? I don't think you've answered my request for information about frog trimming on the other thread yet?




Have you any studies to show formalydehyde being beneficial to living tissue?! Or evidence to show it isn't a carcinogen?
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Hoof wall, sole and frog surface are not living tissue.




I'm trying an experiment WaH. I have just come in from the yard where, with my closed mind and a sharp rasp :D, I have rasped back the breakover of my long toed horse. I am going to do them every few days for three months, (he'll put them back in a week if I don't) and see what happens. I tried doing this two years ago when he arrived, but it made him less capable on stony surfaces, so I stopped. I'll let you know in three months time what the result is, if you are interested? Unless it makes him less sound, of course.
 
Sorry it wasn't meant to be a personal attack just a simple statement that you wouldn't acknowledge another's option to achieve a desired result.

Sorry it took so long to reply this time I've been out working trying to decide whether to give save edge another shot and blow 200£on rasps with them again or to try another brand ... if only they would make them all the same sharpness. I'm in for lunch after a morning trimming ... back out later I think to do my own.

This is my career. I wouldn't have a career if what I did made horses lame or made their feet worse.

I am more than happy to discuss at length any of my case studies, share photos of development from each trim and even discuss the difficulties I've had with achieving those results.

I know toes can more forward without bringing the heels. But you always get narrow quarters with long toes. Also something I'm seeing a lot of lately is run forward feet i.e. Toe and heel angle the same but broken back hpa, sometimes with a long toe sometimes not. Which is an odd one.

I have never once disagreed with you. I would truest welcome the opportunity to share what I know with you so maybe we can both learn something. I love rockley. I would love to have my own place like that. And I hope to visit when one of my own clients goes there when there is space.

All I ever was trying to explain was that there are things you can do with a trim that does help.

Hope that makes sense
 
When you two have quite finished :p barefoot threads had been less confrontational compared to years ago :p

Fwiw re franks toes I didn't trim them because of concerns about leverage it was because if he was allowed to perpetuate his wear pattern he would have gradually made his action more wonky and we wanted him rolling off as straight and quickly as possible given his prior issues. I'm not sure if he'd worn properly :p he'd have then been self trimming given his growth rate as he did plenty of abrasive surface work. Assuming same growth front and behind he would have have been fine I guess.

After a few months delay or ridiculous growth now he is doing only a couple of hacks a week he actually seems to be more self trimming than when doing lots more!

Oh and I think Rockley is great but I wish they didn't only concentrate on following up only the most successful post rehab.
 
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I agree with you Ester. We need a lot more information on the ones which don't work. We know more that barefoot works a lot more often than anything else. we need to know why it doesn't work when it doesn't work.

I've had one. She had a spur on the navicular bone. Not just a rough edge, a clear bone spur. A small number of people have described cases that didn't work on the forum, but I can't remember any of them that had the what I would expect t to put in as the required amount of work/miles.
 
Yup the ones that I know that have struggled have not had the slow straight line mileage I think really helps. Probably not crucial for all but likely for some at least. I think it pretty much a lot of horses best hope but they aren't all going to end up rock stomping.
 
Yes, it was a persuasive article but the conclusions were very unscientific and not justified by the experiment results. If you are going to use dead feet, you can't tell what effect it will have on the living tissue of a live horse.

The claim that it will create infections in live horses is easy to test - use it on live horses and test against a control group. They should have done that before making that claim.

They should also have balanced that view against the fact that bruises can cause abscesses and hardening the sole can prevent bruises.

Keratex hoof hardener has been being used on live horses for thirty years. I don't know a single person who has ever claimed that it gave their horse a foot infection.


And before anyone says 'I'm one' there are zillions of horses that get for infections that aren't being treated with formaldehyde, so prove it was the formaldehyde. After all, it was being used in the first place because the horse had the kind of weak feet that get infections easily.
 
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TheSylv007 said:
Apologies, I'm still confused,you said the hoof wall etc aren't living tissue so why does it matter whether the limb it is attached to belongs to a live or dead horse?
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Well I'm not explaining myself very well, then, am I :) ?

The claim made in the article was that brittleness and micro fissures - found when an unspecified strength of formaldehyde was applied to dead horses' hooves - would cause infection and other problems to live horse's live tissues.

This claim cannot be reasonably made unless it is tested on live horses. And since that's a very simple and cheap thing to do, I don't understand why these 'scientists' haven't done it before writing articles about how harmful formaldehyde is.
 
Ah, got you! That makes sense . I guess they surmised that the effect of the formaldehyde was to change the structure of the tissues so that they might be more susceptible to infection in theory but they couldn't state that it definitely would in real life.
 
TheSylv007 said:
Ah, got you! That makes sense . I guess they surmised that the effect of the formaldehyde was to change the structure of the tissues so that they might be more susceptible to infection in theory but they couldn't state that it definitely would in real life.
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Problem was that as I read it, they did state that it definitely would. They appeared to leave out of count the fact that formaldehyde is an extremely powerful antiseptic, and that harder soles will bruise less and lessen the risk of a bruise causing an abscess.

I would not recommend long term use of formaldehyde, but I'll stick with short term use at 8%, to help a horse out for a few weeks, until somebody does the live animal tests. I suspect Keratex already have that info, I might go and look for it.
 
ycbm said:
I'm trying an experiment WaH. I have just come in from the yard where, with my closed mind and a sharp rasp :D, I have rasped back the breakover of my long toed horse. I am going to do them every few days for three months, (he'll put them back in a week if I don't) and see what happens. I tried doing this two years ago when he arrived, but it made him less capable on stony surfaces, so I stopped. I'll let you know in three months time what the result is, if you are interested? Unless it makes him less sound, of course.
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An update on this experiment, now three weeks in. I am taking off the toes every four to five days. This is the length of time he takes to put the hoof wall back higher than the sole callous.

After two weeks, he grew the outside heel at least one third of an inch higher than the other on both front feet, so I am now leveling those every four to five days as well.

Today he was standing toe in, which he's never done before.

His feet look better than they ever have. The heel is further back and higher, the feet themselves are round instead of oval.


He isn't in much work at the moment and he doesn't seem any less capable, so I will let the experiment continue.

But if it ends with him remaining toe in as spring approaches, I will go back to letting him self trim and keep his long toes if that's what he needs to stand and move straight.
 
ycbm said:
An update on this experiment, now three weeks in. I am taking off the toes every four to five days. This is the length of time he takes to put the hoof wall back higher than the sole callous.

After two weeks, he grew the outside heel at least one third of an inch higher than the other on both front feet, so I am now leveling those every four to five days as well.

Today he was standing toe in, which he's never done before.

His feet look better than they ever have. The heel is further back and higher, the feet themselves are round instead of oval.


He isn't in much work at the moment and he doesn't seem any less capable, so I will let the experiment continue.

But if it ends with him remaining toe in as spring approaches, I will go back to letting him self trim and keep his long toes if that's what he needs to stand and move straight.
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any hoof pics of this experiment?
 
As I walked away this morning I knew people would ask that. I don't want to risk my new tablet outside in that environment, I only just got it for Christmas. And if I use my ancient phone I'll have to ask the OH to download it to his computer and then email it to mine and it's all too much of a fag. You'll just have to go by word pictures atm, I'm afraid. They are pretty feet though!
 
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