ulcer/blister cause?

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Fantasy_World

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I was looking on here tonight for some information about ulcers and blisters in a horse's mouth and found a thread which I was going to post on but didn't want to jump on that person's thread with a question of my own.
My mare has developed a sore which looks very similar to the one that was posted about.
I had the vet out to do jabs on another horses yesterday and wish now I had asked them about it but didn't know that she had in then.
She can be moody throughout the month and often doesn't like you getting close to her face and as she has not been ridden for at least a month then I am not sure if she has had this longer than thought and if it was something small which has grown.
I had spoke to the vet about weight loss yesterday though as she has lost weight again the last month. When I moved yards two months ago she did then as she went from lush grass to bowling green paddocks. All my horses have been having hay put in the field since around that time by me due to the grass simply not growing. I am awaiting some more paddocks to be sorted to then move them to fields where there is more grass.
She with the others were wormed before moving but didn't worm again after the move. I do poo pick the fields though. I am waiting until they move fields which should be in the next 2 weeks to worm them again.
When she dropped a little weight before she soon picked it up again with a daily feed of rowan barbary extra mash. She was going out for hacks then though too.
I have not been giving feeds for just over a month though as she had picked the weight up and previously I have never had to give her any feeds in summer, only winter as she can get stressed in the stable.
I have also rugged her up the last few weeks due to it getting cold but this week have taken the rug off with it being nice and that is when I noticed she has dropped weight. As she seemed fine otherwise and was growing her winter coat on neck, seemed bright as usual and eating/drinking the same I didn't think anything of it.
She is now having daily feeds again though. The vet I spoke to didn't seem concerned when I told her and what my plans were but I did say that if I didn't notice any improvements within 2 weeks I would re-worm and have the vet come out to check teeth, and maybe blood test.
She last had her teeth done in December whilst on loan and the time before was the previous November with me which was the first time she had had her teeth done for a long while, the vet thought. Not due to me, but previous owners.
The reason I am saying all this is to give some background on the horse to see if there is any link to this sore on her lips.
I can only see the one in her mouth but she won't let me get a really good look at it as she in one of her mood times at the moment.
It is not affecting her eating though as she has wolfed down her feed both times and tucks into the hay well and can graze also.
Now for the field, I have already mentioned that the grass is very low and hay has been given daily to all mine ( she shares her field with one other horse). When I moved on I put up new boundaries at the bottom of both fields as there was bracken growing on the other side of it. Knowing that it is poisonous and there not being much grass I didn't want them to eat it. Now I have discovered that she has got over this fence at least once that I know of and so have my other horses and eaten some bracken. I mentioned this to the vet and we both shared concerns of it. Most of the bracken has now been cut down by us and I have also now attached our fencing to the main electric fencing to stop them getting through. I also know there were nettles and bramble on the other side, as well as thistles. There was also another plant which I could not identify that was a crawling plant across the ground, had almost heart shaped leaves and had a smell to it when pulled up. I know this was on the side of the other horses but not 100% sure in her field.
I have not seen any buttercups though. There has been ragwort which we have got up properly every time it was spotted.
I have read all sorts about these blisters such as nettles, buttercups, bot flies emerging, summer sores and so on.
Before I call the vet out does anyone have an idea of what may be the cause of this ( see pictures below) and in the meantime what is safe to use on her that may make it a bit more comfortable as it does look sore.
Thanks for reading
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Hi Cazee - no experience directly of the ulcer your horse has, and I admit I found your story hard to follow, but if that was my horse I'd definitely have the vet out. It looks suspicious to me and could be a sarcoid. In any event, it looks very painful and I'm not surprised the horse has been losing weight because eating must be very painful. If you watch a horse grazing, they use their lips constantly so such an ulcer must be torment. Vet asap.
 
Thanks for your reply I said what I did so as to try and write out all the history leading up to this. I know whenever I explain anything to the vet I always talk about anything that may be relevant or related, even if it turns out not to be the case then at least the vet is aware of the full picture.
After much researching online last night I believe it is a summer sore, she also has another, a smaller one on the other side of her lip which I found today. I have checked my other horses and none have any on them.
The thing is though she is eating well. She always eats any hay I put down for her and doesn't show any signs of discomfort when eating it. She has also wolfed down her food today. After a couple of days of brushing and feeding she looks better already especially in her coat. It looks as though she may have been sweating under her rug and it had caused dander which has now been brushed out.
I have also wormed her today with an ivermectin wormer today and also applied some direct to each of the sores as ivermectin is often used to treat the condition.
See here http://azequine.com/summersores.pdf

and http://forums.horsecity.com/index.php?showtopic=47042908

and http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vmth/large_animal/equine/pdfs/UCD_Equine_FS_Habronema_pamphlet.pdf

Both the sores that she has do have the yellow granulated areas that are often referred to in summer sores. So she has been wormed and also had some of the wormer rubbed into both sores as this appears to be the norm. It is more prevalent in the USA however cases have been reported in the UK from what I read last night online.
I am wondering therefore if she has cut her mouth either on something in the hay or by attacking bracken, or nettles etc and the flies have then deposited the worm larvae onto those areas which have caused the sores.
She seems bright and responsive and not bothered by them much. Today she let me give both of them a clean and have a good look at them which confirmed the granulation of the skin. I am going to keep an eye on them over the next few days and if there is little change or they get worse then I will be getting the vet out.
 
just leave them alone and they will heal. ;)

my yearling had two this spring. i thought initialy that she had rubbed her mouth on the bars of the stable- but she's only ever in for handling so that didnt make real sense.

i got the vet and he had never seen them before, advised to leave them alone and just monitor them.

i wormed for bots (again!) and moved them into a clean paddock, and within a few weeks they began to heal- once they started they cleared up very quickly.

they werent sore, and they never stopped her eating- so i doubt very much that they are in any way related to your mares weight loss. ;)

i have no idea what causes them- there are no definitive answers- everyone seems to have their own theory. all i know is that i left her be and they went away.

xx
 
Hiya thanks for that x I haven't messed with them much just a sponge off to clean off food bits before I rubbed the wormer on them. Also so I could have a better look at them. They are strange things though, like shallow craters.
Very odd though as I have never come across them before. I am going to reworm her again when they all move pastures as there is little point at the moment as the grass they are going on has had a lot of horses on and I don't know if they were wormed or when? Plan is to poo pick the new paddocks before they go on and worm all of them.
If these things get worse though or don't show any signs of improving I will get the vet out though because of their location and ability to heal.
To be honest she has never been totally right since coming back from being on loan. Wish I had never sent her now, but had no choice. Tip, never offer to help out anyone that you know if that involves you then putting yourself in a position where you have to make difficult decisions. She came back from being on loan in May, and was a picture when I took her up last September. She returned thin, hanging on to her winter coat and louse ridden. For the last two years ( before this) I have never had to give her any hard feed during summer, maybe as a treat but certainly not to maintain or put on condition.
She put on weight when she came back after being wormed, de loused and on good pasture with hard feed. I then moved yards and she did drop slightly which meant I gave her more hard feed again. She picked up and then has gone like she has, almost to what she was like when she returned from loan.
I am now though starting to question the care and nutrition she did receive when she was on loan and if she has been eating something that she should not have. I may be clutching at straws but why would a horse that has previously looked a picture and could maintain weight just out on grass, even when having 4/5 hacks suddenly start struggling with keeping condition on? To me it doesn't add up. Are there any plants that can cause any long term damage to horses, besides the obvious ragwort? I do know that the first yard she was at when on loan had fields that were very hilly and like moorland. Obviously I understand that hill ponies live on this terrain but they wander about and are not enclosed in a field.
The second yard was where I think the weight loss occurred, or the major weight loss judging by the pictures I had previously and what she looked like when I collected her. I didn't get a good look around the place or fields though as just wanted her home. Things just don't add up. How can a horse that I had turned around from a state over 2 years ago and who was previously a good doer go on loan and then come back a different horse who seems to vulnerable to weight loss and other ailments. It is odd :(
She had her teeth done in December by an edt and there was nothing of any major concern on the report which I had given to me. She had teeth floated etc and was due again twelve months time.

She does look to be picking up now though in the last 2 days and looks better with the sun on her back too. Have just ordered some herbs for moody mare and also for skin health to include in her feeds to help with that. But to be honest I think it is well worth me getting the vet out in the next couple of weeks to do a blood work up to see if anything shows.
I know that my big lad who is in with her has also lost a bit since moving yards but looks a picture of health otherwise, as do the others with gleams on their coats. He has not lost enough to cause me concerns though. So I don't necessarily think that is related. They have been having hay supplemented from virtually when I moved on too.
Thank you for confirming though that there are cases in the UK though because most of the information online relates to the US x
 
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well i wouldnt worry about her mouth! ;)

you know your horse, and if you are worried about her weight and possible causes then i'd phone the vet.

how old is she? how long was she on loan? could it be possible that she had a foal whilst out on loan?? my mare lost a lot of condition after having her foal, and it took a good few months post weaning to get her back to her normal weight. just a thought. ;)

if she was lousy then this would explain her dull coat, and could have affected her condition also.

horses can change though- in my experience...! my mare was the opposite though- used to need a lot of feeding in the winter to maintain condition, and now relatively little?! (im not complaining!)

moving yards can be stressfull- and she may have been at the bottom of the pecking order?? these may be the cause?

xx
 
My mare is 18 and she was out on temporary loan from the end of September last year and I collected her the start of May this year. So she was on loan around 8 months. She could not have had any foals as her last ones that she had before I got her all died so she had become barren.
She was very pleased to be back though and instantly recognised her field mate who is a heavy horse cross and is 20 himself. She had previously been with my other horse too but as I have a youngster as well and he had not been with them from the start then my horses are divided into pairs in separate paddocks now. I can understand what you mean about the pecking order as I have seen horses get bullied when in herds however as she is in a pair it is not too bad. He can boss her around at times but they both get around the same levels of forage. She doesn't seem stressed though.
Perhaps the move took more out of her than I thought it would I don't know? However this is the third yard move she has had since she has been with me ( not including the loan home) and she does normally settle straight away as all mine are laid back and sane which people have always commented about.
It may have been due to the grass having little growth that has not helped her, however although my others are all native types they have all been fine. I suppose one could argue that TB's are not as hardy as many natives and can lose condition and I suppose for many that is true. However she is a good doer. She grows a real woolly coat in winter. When I first had her over 2 years ago and she was in a state she did recover pretty well so much so that in less than 6 months she was taken to a local show and finished second in an inhand ex racehorse class. She went to the same show this August, just after moving yards and was 4th in that same class and placed 4th in the veteran too. She didn't look as well as I had her in 2009 though but since she had returned just 3 months before in a bit of a state there was less time to get her right.
When I look at photos I have taken of her in August she has lost weight since then. I had rugged her up though since then as it had started to get a bit cold and I wanted to try and help keep as much condition on her as she has looked her thinnest this summer compared to the last two.
I will get the vet out anyway in the next few weeks to re assess her teeth in case there is a problem there, but I doubt it. Will also discuss with them about her too as they have known her since I first got her and know the all the effort it has taken to get her right.
My concerns about her though are not just her coming back from loan in a state but how she has managed to lose so much condition considering I have been giving her extra forage to help compensate against the short growing grass. I haven't been able to bring in to give extra hay/haylage yet as she would stress without her fieldmate and they already call out to each other when not in view or when she has gone out for a ride.
I never had this separation anxiety before with either of them until she came back from loan. Before they were all quite happy if any of them left the field and even though they are next door to my other horses, these two don't seem to acknowledge that their other mates are right by them.
It is as though she came back from loan a different horse, a bit clingy perhaps. I know that I will get to the bottom of it all in the end but it still makes me mad and I now have the view of don't ever put your horse out on loan unless you are 200% sure!
In my case I did simply have no choice as had to move and there was not enough space for all 3 to move. She was the only one that was suitable to loan out as other two I rode and the other a youngster I was not going to send anywhere having spent time working on groundwork, taking to a show and teaching manners. Typically before they had to come in for winter a stable came available but she had already been on loan for nearly two months and I had signed an agreement for her to stay until May.
I guess I am just a little psd about the whole situation really but you live and learn don't you. I guess it has taught me a few things about people and situations and I know that I will not make the same mistakes again and be so trusting again on all counts!
Sorry I am venting a bit but this has caused a whole lot of hurt and anguish as well as not being the best situation for my mare too. I will let you know the outcome and what I find out when the vet does see her.
best wishes
X
 
its a shame that you had to put her out on loan. i dont think i would never be able to do that. :(

at 18 she is technically a veteran, so it may just be her age catching up with her- all horses are different- some are "old" at 18, some (like my sisters pony) only start to slow down at 40!

if she has had foals in the past, this takes a huge toll on the mare and in general they will be old before their time. ;)

just to make you feel a little bit better: tego, the afore mentioned 40 yr old has only this summer started to look old and a bit boney. you'd have never guessed she was as old as she was until now. every year she has always been a "good doer" until all of a sudden this summer she didnt look as she normally would after a whole summer on good grass.

her teeth are to blame- her age has caught up with her at last. what im trying to say is that it may just be nature taking its course, and all you can do is manage it from here on in. AND that it can happen in the blink of an eye. ;)

ets: please do let me know how she gets on. good luck. ;)
xx
 
Yes it could be that age has suddenly decided to catch up I am not sure, however I will pm you some photos of her to show how her condition has changed over the last 2 and a bit years.
I have also got her last dental report and can make out the following. farside right, unrestricted before and after work with molar table angle 10-15% and same after I think as there are ditto marks. Percent of occlusion 95% and after the same. caudal and rostral movement unrestricted on both. Nearside left unrestricted on both. Percent of occlusion 95% and after the same, with molar table angle 10-15% incisor table angle slant before and after work. Also notes saying very sharp something? upper lingual? lo....? cannot decipher the writing. Looking at the other bits I think it meant she had sharp points on molars.
Now considering the slant on her incisors I am wondering if that is due to how she does chomp at the grass and chew. When I had her, her teeth were in such a bad state she would chew haylage like a camel but did cope with grass ok. My vet said at the time that she may still have the action even when her teeth are fine because of the memory of the repeated action of eating like that. Obviously I will be getting her teeth done this winter again as I do know that with veterans tooth care is especially important.
Your boy is doing very well for 40! I don't know if any of mine will ever reach that age, perhaps the two cobs have the best chance as they have not had that much work and the one that is a youngster won't be rushed either. The TB mare had raced since she was 2 on flat and then over jumps and bred 5 foals in total, 3 died. So I suppose you could say that she has had a busy life. No one believes her age though when I tell them as people think she looks younger in face and body. The big man does not look 20 besides a few grey hairs. I have had him for 5 years now and besides doing a few long distance rides he has had an easy life with me. Before then he has jumped and hunted in the past and used to be lent out to people so don't know exactly how much he has done. I do know though that this previous life has probably affected his joints and his bone spavin has most likely been brought on by his younger days of jumping and hard work. He like the mare do get joint supplements though, more so in winter when the cold and wet sets in and also due to the reduction in exercise due to being partly stabled during the day.
I will let you know how she gets on and what the vet says when I get them out to her.
take care xx
 
tego has been incredibly fit all her life- and i think that this has played a part in her lasting so well.

when we bought her she had been outgrown, but had been an active pony clubber, one day eventer, working hunter pony etc etc. we didnt do much competing with her as we are so ar away from the shows, but she was in hard ridden work up untill my sister was at uni. then she was worked less and eventually retired to the field!

up until this year the only give away was her greying face... but she is starting to look a bit old! ( although in all seriousness she doesnt look 40!! :D) since she has been getting her two feeds a day of fast fibre and veteran vitality she has really picked up. ;)

id be interested to see the pics. ;)

xxx
 
popularfurball thanks for that yes I will mention that to vet too when I get her bloods done. Whisp&willow it sounds as though she led a very active life then, still it is a very good age to reach 40 so well done :)
I will sort the photos out later as I've got some sorting to do at the yard this afternoon and in this heat :( It is waaaayyy to hot at the moment, wish I was on holiday lol.
Will send you the link this evening, take care xx
 
Update on mare. On Sat I had to have the vet out as an emergency as she had collapsed twice. Once after eating her feed she just went down on the floor and groaned but then got up. She also went down back in the field and was eating hay whilst lying down. The horses had water even though I admit it was hot on that day. She was also in season at the time. She did a strange thing twice though as I went to check her backend and then cleaned it because as I moved her tail she almost went down on her back legs and peed.
She wasn't showing any signs of colic and seemed ok otherwise just sluggish when leading. Eyes were normal and skin pinch test showed no signs of dehydration. Poo was a little on the hard side though.
Vet came out and checked her and didn't think in any immediate danger. She was given an injection of bute and was advised best to leave her out rather than bring in which could cause more stress, I agreed with this.
Advised to ring vets to get teeth checked as vet didn't have gag on them and I also mentioned bloods.
I had the vet out again yesterday to do her teeth. They said she had hooks on her very back teeth and there was a bit of food there. These were rasped off and also she had some rasping done to her other molars on top and bottom jaw as she had a small ulcer on one side. They said teeth were not that bad but enough that it would have an effect. She was such a good girl when she had it done and didn't need a sedative either. Obviously gave her bute afterwards and she had been having it over the weekend anyway in her feeds. Bloods were taken and a full work up done which showed clear.
Have now discussed having her teeth done every 6 months because either she needs it or those hooks were not addressed in December. I showed vet the EDT report and they said it didn't show anything untoward. Vet has advised giving a vit/mineral supplement they do which I need to pick up and also worm with Pramox. I can't do the latter until they move paddocks though.
Both vets agreed though that the ulcers were summer sores and that course of treatment I did was correct, the wormer and said to leave alone otherwise which I was planning on doing anyway.
She seemed a bit brighter today and when I got her in to give a feed she actually put in a little trot which was nice.
Now I am thinking that since she returned home from loan in a thin state and then lost weight so quickly during this month that if poor grazing has been partly to blame. I do know that the fields she was on were very bleak, and at the moment there is little grass which I why I have been supplementing with hay. I do know that grazing on sufficient and suitable grass is supposed to help wear teeth down but not so sure if this also applies to the molars right at the back?
I am also questionning if it is just the teeth because I do know when I first had her her teeth were so bad the vet was surprised she could even eat and yet all that summer she had put weight on by just being out at grass, but it was good grass. Now having seen what the vet took off yesterday and it didn't take long yet was done by hand and compare to the lengthy time it had taken that time with a mechanical device when her teeth which I saw and both felt to be awful, I find it a bit strange that it seems to be the main reason for weight loss?
Strange? but at least now she should start improving I hope.
 
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