Ulcer questions and what next...

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LittleCob

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Hi,

This is my first post and could be a long one, sorry! I think my horse may have ulcers and will be phoning the vet tomorrow to arrange a scope but wanted to ask some questions in the meantime.

I'm wondering if a horse with ulcers could react to the girth fine one day then explode the next day? Or would they always have the severe reaction?

Also is the scope definitive? I'm sure I read somewhere that some ulcers can't be seen on scope (hind gut maybe?!) - if so, how can I rule these out?

Bit of background: my horse started getting a bit girthy last year. First of all just grumpy faces then trying to nip when he girth was put on. Vet was due out for routine vacs so had him take a look. Vet couldn't get any reaction so put it down to behavioural issues. Had his saddle checked (fine) and massage lady couldn't feel any back issues. Anyway a couple of weeks later the girth reaction had become much worse; horse had started pawing, lifting back legs, chewing on stable bars, etc.

Took him to vets. Checked his back (fine) and did nerve blocks around the girth area that did seem to help. Then he had an ultrasound of girth area and xrays of his ribs (and his back purely because you could see it in rib xrays) - nothing of any concern was found. We then did a bute trial which I had to stop half way through because horse coliced but the bute made no difference.

Before all the above treatment I asked if it could be ulcers but vet thought not (cant remember the reason why!).

Anyway, never got to the bottom of it, I let him have a couple of months off then started riding again. Horse wasn't as bad but still not entirely happy about being girthed but more just grumpy faces. He would also sometimes arch his back when you first mounted. Again girth reaction got worse. Rather than girth him I've been walking him out in hand and pootling about bareback just to try and keep the weight off. He seems ok with this.

Tonight I weigh taped him and got the 'girth reaction'. I have been doing this once a week for last month without any reaction? So phoning vet to get him booked in for a scope even if they don't think it is ulcers. To me, it screams ulcers but obviously I'm not a vet and relatively new to horses (owned him for 4 years).

Thanks for reading!! I really need to get to the bottom of this.
 
Ulcers certainly can cause on-and-off girthiness, as much as constant girthiness, so I think you're doing the right thing. It's also well known that bute can aggrevate (and cause) ulcers so I think it's useful to take on board that the horse colicked during a bute trial. They can also cause a lot of muscular pain around the thorax, pectoral, girth area - as well as in the shoulders and underside of the neck in some horses), so in my view, you're doing the right thing to scope. It is correct that there are often acidity or irritation issues in the gut which you can't see on a scope. This is usually referred to in a blanket approach as 'hind gut ulcers' but actually covers a range of things from acidity to irritation to ulceration which is different from gastric ulcers but just as painful.. but by scoping and then treating what you find in the stomach (and confirming they're cleared by scoping again) you will be able accurately to diagnose whether there are further issues in the gut. Some horses are nice and simple and give you a really clear demonstration that they are more comfortable on one or other kind of treatment, so there are a fair few people who would treat and watch for improvements as a way of 'diagnosing'... but IME with my current mare this would have given us a false negative as she took a very long time to stop reacting, had also been on and off in her symptoms, and needed further osteo work and support for the hind gut in order to stop being symptomatic. Had I not scoped and then rescoped and seen she was clear in the stomach, I woudln't have known to move on to finding and dealing with the next layer of the problem, if you know what I mean, which needed dealing with in a different way. Anyway, that's my theory on why scoping was right for her rather than treating and seeing what happened.
Some vets are more up to speed with ulcers than others, and knowledge is increasing all the time on signs and symptoms, but on the whole with something like this I'd trust your instinct.
The good news is that there is a lot more understanding now of how to manage and prevent them recurring. The bad news is that you'll get a bit dizzy with the suggestions from people of what has or hasn't worked for their horse in terms of treatment and supplements, as it really does seem to be horses for courses on this one. I won't repeat them all here, but if you do a search you'll get a million threads full of info :) Good luck, let us know how you get on.
 
My mare had very similar symptoms to your horse, and I've been using egusin SLH with great results. In fact, she did the 21 day course and it ran out on Christmas Eve. Over the last week her symptoms returned with a vengeance and she was vile to say the least. I got my new batch 48 hours ago and tonight she was lots better in the school. I think it's a case of trial and error really to see what suits your horse. Management and diet is key. Most people find hay better than haylage and stress that the horse needs constant forage. Often alfalfa is said to help, my girl has responded well to having simple systems simplycomplete as it has alfalfa and linseed which is also good for soothing the stomach. Staying away from sugar rich feed e.g mixes and molassed chaff is usually beneficial.
 
80% sounds much more acceptable! Thanks for the info, I like to know how everything works (although I tend to over analyse everything :D ).

I'm really hoping something shows up in the scope. I feel a bit pressurised to get on with it and just ride him by friends/liveries saying 'some horses are just girthy or he's just taking the mick'. So fingers crossed!
 
Good advice already above, but to add, ignore those horrid friends and liveries - you know your horse, listen to him.
 
Kelpie said:
Good advice already above, but to add, ignore those horrid friends and liveries - you know your horse, listen to him.
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This :) I had an instructor and various helpful types telling me to put mine in draw reins for her head tossing (poll pain diagnosed, treated and she's never done it since)... to hit her when she was naughty (read: mildly panicking) at the prospect of jumping a grid (splash ulcers diagnosed, treated and she's never done it since)... and to strap her mouth shut when she poked her tongue out (noseband loosened and bit simplified and mouth now stays closed because she can relax her jaw more easily). Trust your instincts :)

Let us know how you get on.
 
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Yes, I'd come across the 30% statistic too. Mine has pyloric ulcers & a month of GG has made no difference. We are now trying GP & after just over 2 weeks, there is no change on that either, but I've sent all his bloods to Equine Science & they're having a look to see if we need to change anything. Apparently sometimes there can be an absorption problem. I'm not a science person, so can't pretend to understand any of it!

T x
 
Lucky Lady said:
I think where the 30% not working of the GG came from a clinical trial that Richard Hepburn did.
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Think the OP had read it as only effective in 30% :) 30% not working isn't far off what he thought when he diagnosed my mare before the national trial (20%). I'd be really interested to hear if they include GP in a trial, I know a lot of people who really swear by it, in particular those whose horses haven't responded well to GG. I tried GP with mine for her residual gut discomfort after her gastric ulcers had cleared up and didn't get an improvement but did with other supplements, but I would definitely be up for trying it again if her stomach ulcers recur. Research can't develop quickly enough as far as I'm concerned, I think a lot of horses are struggling in silence with these issues and a lot don't have owners so willing to work so hard to find an answer!
 
Reading this thread with interest as I am having real problems with my horse. He has always been a bit "girthy" but recently it has got so bad. He was scoped in August and treated with gastrogard as he had little pin pricks that could have been ulcers but not even grade 1. It didn't make any difference and he then had his droppings tested and they contained quite a bit of blood which could indicate hindgut ulcers. He has been on succeed for 3 months now and he is still getting worse. He gets ad lib hay. No cereals etc in feeds. Lots of turnout time.
He is now almost sitting down when he is mounted even with girth being done up slowly, walked around etc. he is grumpy and almost aggressive in the stable when u touch time, rug him up, groom him etc. it's horrible to see and I'm at a loss at what to do!
 
squirrelc17 said:
Reading this thread with interest as I am having real problems with my horse. He has always been a bit "girthy" but recently it has got so bad. He was scoped in August and treated with gastrogard as he had little pin pricks that could have been ulcers but not even grade 1. It didn't make any difference and he then had his droppings tested and they contained quite a bit of blood which could indicate hindgut ulcers. He has been on succeed for 3 months now and he is still getting worse. He gets ad lib hay. No cereals etc in feeds. Lots of turnout time.
He is now almost sitting down when he is mounted even with girth being done up slowly, walked around etc. he is grumpy and almost aggressive in the stable when u touch time, rug him up, groom him etc. it's horrible to see and I'm at a loss at what to do!
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I have found equishure to be successful for the hind gut. May be worth a try
 
Squirrel - that sounds awful hope you find something that works soon. I'm really hoping we do find ulcers, half the battle if u know what you're dealing with.

we're booked in for a scope and general review on Thursday :)

Not looking forward to the fasting beforehand!!
 
Try not to worry about the fasting. I was really worried about it first time through but with no need. I was really surprised with how well my mare seemed to cope with it, even though she was a handful at the best of times. Horses live in the moment and aren't sitting there the same way you are thinking 'six more hours of no food!' If you think about it, when they're out hunting they'll go for hours without eating. I know it's not the same, but you know what I mean!
One word of warning though - if the vets get you to put the horse in a stable when you're waiting for the scope, don't take their word for it that there's no food in there. A nurse directed me to what she thought was a food-less stable when I went in for one scope, but she hadn't reckoned on the horse's ability to sniff out the tiniest strand of hay hiding under the shavings. It's bloody frustrating if all your horse's effort at fasting is jeopardised at the last minute.

You can take some chaff and wait for the sedation to wear off so horsey can have something to eat before you set back off home again.
 
Mine survived the fast too! My stables are about 10 metres from the house, & the first time we did it, I stayed awake virtually all night, worried in case he colicked. He didn't, but when they scoped him, they found that he'd been eating shavings! So for the rescope, I put him in a bare stable, & felt v mean. But slept a bit better.

So far, Equine Science has looked at Trev's bloodwork & said that he needs a custom-made formula. GG hasn't worked; 'normal' GP hasn't either so far. So we can either continue our journey with Equine Science or... give up? PTS?

Hope yours is easier to solve!

T x
 
LittleCob said:
Squirrel - that sounds awful hope you find something that works soon. I'm really hoping we do find ulcers, half the battle if u know what you're dealing with.

we're booked in for a scope and general review on Thursday :)


Not looking forward to the fasting beforehand!!
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Good luck for Thursday.

And thank you to everyone for the advise. Will try the gastro plus and egusin. Anything has to be worth it to make him more comfortable.
 
Smiling at your horse eating the shavings.... Hopefully mine won't try that!! I just need to put up a notice that no-one should take pity on him and slip him a treat! He does tend to talk very nicely to everyone that passes his way!! :)

Didn't realise the trouble some people have with ulcers. I just thought 'ulcers, gastrogard, done!'

I think it's worth a go with the custom made formula :) fingers crossed for you
 
Alfalfa is good for helping with ulcers.

Research has shown that horses on full turnout have less occurrence of ulcers than stabled horses.

Feeding fibre prior to riding can help as well.
 
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catembi said:
Mine survived the fast too! My stables are about 10 metres from the house, & the first time we did it, I stayed awake virtually all night, worried in case he colicked. He didn't, but when they scoped him, they found that he'd been eating shavings! So for the rescope, I put him in a bare stable, & felt v mean. But slept a bit better.

So far, Equine Science has looked at Trev's bloodwork & said that he needs a custom-made formula. GG hasn't worked; 'normal' GP hasn't either so far. So we can either continue our journey with Equine Science or... give up? PTS?

Hope yours is easier to solve!

T x
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Would be really interesting to hear what they think your horse needs that's different from the usual forumla, and how you get on with it. Can't remember whether you'd said you'd tried Egusin too or not, but that would be worth a try if the GP doesn't sort it. Did they try antibiotics alongside the GG too? I know the whole bacteria thing is still up for discussion, but it's certainly the case that some horses do need ABs to help them clear them...
 
I always would demand AB if the horse has pyloric ulcers gastroguard Is just too expensive to find out you need to treat a second time.
 
LittleCob said:
Hi,

Thanks for reading!! I really need to get to the bottom of this.
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I suspect my horse may possibly have gastric ulcers as did my vet when she came out to his colic last but the other vets from the practice disagree. I put my horse on slippery elm which is a mucilage i.e. when mixed with liquid from the stomach goes into a gluey type of porridge which coats the stomach lining and helps to soothe.

Its very effective and has helped my horse with his girthiness issues and when he is groomed (used to get very nasty at times especially around his stomach and girth area). Not explaining myself very well as short on time (meant to be working) but I find it very good. You need to come off it for a while when feeding any drug that is absorbed through the stomach lining i.e. bute but its very effective. When my horse was injured and was coming back into work he was alarmingly lame on two danillon a day until I read on the internet about the absorption through the stomach lining and how slippery elm prevents this! I then took him off the slippery elm for a couple of weeks and he became sound and then gradually petered off the bute and he remained sound. He's back on the slippery elm again. I buy mine from someone on ebay (I can PM you the details if you want). I find it very cost effective and only give a rounded teaspoon once per day in his feed (which he takes as its palatable).



Here is a description from a website:

Slippery elm for horses provides essential and effective support for the delicate digestive system of the horse. Unlike other compounds used for gut health, it does not have a negative effect on your horse’s digestive system in the long run. Slippery elm prompts the horse’s intestinal tract to increase its own mucus secretion - which is what is believed to support the gastrointestinal tract.

You can also mix slippery elm with water to make a poultice to soothe and calm body tissues or aid natural healing of wounds, and it may also provide support to the respiratory system.


Slippery elm has no known side effects or toxicity even if it is used long-term. No adverse reactions have been reported if slippery elm is taken alongside treatments - although it may slow down the absorption of other drugs or herbs because of the way it coats the digestive tract.


Slippery elm contains:


•Substances derived from the inner bark of the slippery elm tree which contains mucilage - a substance that becomes a gel when it combines with liquid. It coats and soothes the intestines and contains antioxidants that help support good gastrointestinal health.
Feed to:

•Support gastric health and aid natural healing of the bowel
 
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Yes, we had 2 weeks' ABs & also something that I can never remember to coat the ulcers. A white liquid.

We've tried abler omeprazole - fab response for 3 weeks, then petered off. Ditto Egusin, but tailed off within a week or so. We've also tried ul30rex (or how ever you spell it), acid-x, Happy Tummy, random other-brand activated charcoal, coligone, LifeForce, pronutrin, protexin, fennel seeds (which did actually work consistently, but only pulling him up from a 2/10 to 4/10)...

Atm he is out in the day with ad lib hay (enough so there is some left), in at night with plenty of hay, he is fed Healthy Tummy & Rowan Barbery mash & gets a bucket of alfa-a as a late feed. I've always fed alfa before any sort of work.

Apparently his bloods show that there is other stuff going on. One can never be certain whether one is being led up the garden path in order to facilitate the emptying of the wallet... but I feel that I literally have nothing else to try. I laid awake for ages crying Sun night as he looked at me so earnestly as if asking me to help him, & all I could do was pat him & tell him that I'm doing my best. Which pretty well amounts to f-all for all practical purposes. I feel so useless sometimes.

T x
 
Oh Catembi you have been through it. Have they said what 'other stuff' they think is going on?
I certainly know from my mare that hers have recurred once in response to a trauma and some pain: we had a fall last Feb and everything management-wise stayed the same but by the time I got out of hospital she was biting at her sides bless her. I know they're only just beginning to understand ulcers as a secondary issue, so maybe there'll be an answer there for you.

You're probably dizzy with suggestions but Moorcroft the racehorse rehoming people say they've had good results with Aloe Vera - though it has to be syringed rather than added to feed and amounts need to be higher than many use. So we're talking 100ml syringed, I think twice a day...
 
No real explanation, P. Apparently his bloods show a pattern, so they are making him a special formula to address it. One of the things is his extreme behaviour - he is either super-chilled or flipped out, with not a lot in between! But my understanding of science is pretty well zero. All we can do is suck it & see.

Yes I'd heard something re aloe. I do hate syringing things tho, & 100 ml is 2 big syringes twice a day. And I would imagine quite £££££. Might have to try that after the GP, if all else fails!

T x
 
Re the Aloe, it's not too bad. I syringe 100ml of minerals down my girl every day because she doesn't like the taste so won't eat them in her food. She's completely used to it now and doesn't seem to mind, even looks forward to her treat she gets afterwards. I find it far less stressful than worrying that she hasn't eaten her dinner and got her ulcer supps down her.

On the Aloe front, it's not too bad price wise to be honest. The moorcroft guys reckoned 6-8 weeks of 100ml a day. You'd ideally need a gel so something like the AloEquine stuff, which is about £30 for a 3.75L bottle...
 
How long were you told to fast for? Iv been told 16hrs.... Just seems so long!! Should I stick to it religiously?? Part of me thinks yes no point having to do it again, and the soft/guilty/paranoid side of me thinks give him an extra couple of hours grazing. Someone give me a boot up the bum please!

I think I'll need a drink tonight to get to sleep!
 
LittleCob said:
How long were you told to fast for? Iv been told 16hrs.... Just seems so long!! Should I stick to it religiously?? Part of me thinks yes no point having to do it again, and the soft/guilty/paranoid side of me thinks give him an extra couple of hours grazing. Someone give me a boot up the bum please!

I think I'll need a drink tonight to get to sleep!
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Both mine starved 16 hours. Its not cheap to scope so starve him properley because you don't want to pay twice! :)
 
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