Ulcers / KS / Something else - thoughts please

MardyMare

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Just wanting to pick your brains really. Horse is now under vet advice but I am frustrated and its all rather slow. Have looked through loads of old posts and still cant come to any conclusion.

Horse is 14 bought as a schoolmaster for myself to low level event. Always pulls it out the bag on show day - usually rider that ruins things. Until recently - stuffy in the dressage and then stopped at 2 SJ so I retired. She has moments like this in the past and always put it down to a bad day but has got worse this year. Pulled out of an earlier event this year as warm up in dressage was horrendous - wouldnt bend - cantering on spot if asked to do anything beyond straight lines. Had some time off and started again - put it down to her first season of the year which started the next day. No change to anything except paddock in last 4 months.

No weight issues - living out 24/7 but comes in a few nights before competition to get her off the grass. Fine to tack up, fine to mount, fine to ride out hacking and perfect on the bit on straight line. Problem comes when you ask her to bend either direction. Starts backing off, tail swishing and then even broncs, would rather canter but still wont go forward when cantering. She seems very lethargic, which unfortunately means you need more leg which means more ears back, more tail swishing and more throwing the shoulder on turns. I think her coat seems dull although I put it down to living out now 24/7 she seems to spend much more time sleeping in field - in fact always seems tired. Nothing wrong with her appetite though. Currently on joint balancer, handful of healthy tummy and electro salts.

Vet came out and started with full bloods. Nothing showing. Everything ever so slightly raised but nothing to think any problems. Coming back this week to see on the lunge. She did have a bit of milky snotty nose so wondered if allergy related to new paddock. Have had her on antihistamines which seemed to have cleared that but not the lethargy, unwillingness to bend. I 'think' she may be in season again but hard to tell since the first bad one this year. After this next appointment have suggested perhaps sending her to a horse hospital for full diagnostics. Horse is insured but dont really want everything excluded if they start checking everything? Now feel that I have stirred a hornets nest although I know this is not her normal behaviour and feel I need to get to the bottom of it.

I mentioned my gut reaction re ulcers but only explanation on the day I could give to vet (apart from what I have said above) was at last competition she kept turning around and looking at my foot - just staring at it for ages. My dressage had been good, soft and over back but just not going anywhere, Judge commented on lack of impulsion and forward movement. Not for lack of trying if you look at video you can tell by the tail swishing and ears back I had my leg on every now and again to try and keep her going forward.

Sorry this is long and I know you are not vets and I have a vet on the case but I am feeling a bit in the dark - is there anything you would think this is pointing towards.
 

be positive

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It could be ulcers but could also be many other things and at her age it is just when age related changes tend to start to show, I am assuming you have had the normal teeth, saddle and physio checks to rule out them being the cause.
If she has altered since the paddock change is anything else different, I have known some seem totally fine but realised they were more on edge because their companion was new and not as relaxed which had an effect or that they have felt less "safe" in a certain field than in another, it can be hard to define but a horse that is tense in it's field may not sleep at night and that could be why you see her sleeping more during the day.

The only other thing is I find it strange to bring in for a few nights before a competition to get her off the grass, that could be messing up her routine even if it worked last year it may have triggered something this year for some reason, I don't see any reason to do this as a change of diet and routine can cause ulcers and to my mind it serves no purpose and has no benefit, mine low level event and are out the night before most events, weather permitting, even if it is an early start as I don't like to chop and change things especially just before a competition, when they live out 24/7 they don't tend to gorge, they do tend to prefer grass to hay so if kept in are likely to barely touch their hay overnight unless they are very greedy. I took 2 out yesterday 1 hardly ate any hay, the other ate twice as much, they were both out until 8am when they came in to be got ready, the greedy one is a tb who came out of racing and now eats as if his life depends on it.
 

MardyMare

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Thanks BP, she has moved with all her mare friends to the summer paddock which has more grass and plants in (too many for my liking) I wouldnt say enough of a change to upset her - Just thought I would mention the change. She seems happy enough out in the field.

She had 2 cheek teeth out last year and is on 6 monthly dental visits from an EDT. Due in next couple of weeks actually. Physio chap says she is looking well. Saddle last checked in April and everything was fine.

I do agree with you re bringing in but its what has always been done (I have had her 3 years and continued what previous owners did) There are also 2 others on the yard that do the same thing and we compete at same shows so its like an unwritten agreement that we just bring in 2 days before competition at night. Again have done it 3 years but I do hear what you say I would be happy to just leave her out and compete her straight from the grass. She does like her food. She will eat hay when she comes in - in fact will finish a huge haynet overnight whereas the other horses dont seem to eat much. If I can sort these problems out I think I will just leave her out and compete straight from the field.
 

JanetGeorge

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I would try 10 days on Nexium (available on E-bay) - say 7 tablets a day. Any improvement in 10 days and it's ulcers (FAR cheaper than diagnosis first, lol) Then, IF you're seeing her coming into season and problems are associated with that time, you could try Regumate for a couple of months - but if you're NOT seeing her in season - or if she's staying in season for a longer time than normal, then I would have her ovaries scanned by a vet who specialises in repro work (the former situation for a Granulose Theca Cell tumour, the second for anovulatory follicle.) GTCT is relatively simple surgery, anovulatory follicle just needs a PG jab.)

And if all THAT fails, I'd try Vit E oil and Acetyl-L-Carnitine (ALCAR) - also available on E-bay in case it's EPSM or one of its variations. All far cheaper than a full vet work-up which would be my next step.
 

tallyho!

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If you suspect KS, you should most definitely call the vet asap.

That aside, I think for cases where it's unexplained, a good old elimination "diet" is the only way to pinpoint the problem.

Tack all fine you say and how is the musculature behind the whither? Well muscled with plenty of flesh or "scooped out"? Has the girth built up any pressure points? Over time they can especially if elastic.

You say teeth all fine and good that EDT is coming, there might be something brewing. Hay and grass forage have different actions on teeth wear. At least this can be ruled out soon. Has the bit got uncomfortable somehow?

Do you notice anything else about her physically? You say she has a runny nose... pollen affects horses too. What about the poo and wee? Any funny smells? Is the wee yellow? Physically speaking, it may be worth thinking about a detox holiday? A bit of R&R for the mind and body. Basically, no "additives" so no vits/mins/feed etc... just hay and grass plus a herbal detox given in soaked grass nuts or speedibeet. I use P45 from Trinity but GH Restore is also pretty good. It just flushes out the system - kidneys and liver. Just like a detox is good for humans, it has benefits for horses. No work whatsoever, just tell her to go and horse for a bit. If things improve, gradually reintroduce everything or if you think it's doing her good, carry on for a bit longer.

Usually some time-out and Dr.Green sorts things out but if not, there is something physical so scope/scan may be in order. Stress ulcers will go away of their own accord with rest anyway and perhaps if it is ulcers, a prolonged period of turning away may sort things out.

I really hope it's something easily sorted, I hope it's not KS.
 

MardyMare

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Thanks, I dont suspect KS - I dont know enough about it. Just came up in post history when I searched ulcers. Vets have done full bloods so I am assuming nothing serious going on with toxins etc.

She is well muscled (she is TB and fairly high withered but not scooped out) and even vet on initial examination said she seems well physically. She poked an prodded all over her. We did not do any lameness / flexion tests and at first tbh were thinking low level virus or something with the snotty nose and lethargy. Obviously now this is not the case hence Vet coming back to have another examination. When she has got like this before I have given her a few weeks off had physio out and then picked up again and she has been fine which still doesnt answer if its structural or internal. Also to mention its not a regular occurence - has happened twice before in 3 years.

Gut feeling says ulcers or reproductive issues but because she is fine on straight lines but not bends made me think KS. I like to hear everyone stories to see if any similarities to mine as I have no experience of any of these. I did have a previous mare that seasoned constantly - she was scanned and put on regumate. she would just bronc all the time at canter - happy to trot but not canter. This horse wants to canter.
 

tallyho!

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Thanks, I dont suspect KS - I dont know enough about it. Just came up in post history when I searched ulcers. Vets have done full bloods so I am assuming nothing serious going on with toxins etc.

She is well muscled (she is TB and fairly high withered but not scooped out) and even vet on initial examination said she seems well physically. She poked an prodded all over her. We did not do any lameness / flexion tests and at first tbh were thinking low level virus or something with the snotty nose and lethargy. Obviously now this is not the case hence Vet coming back to have another examination. When she has got like this before I have given her a few weeks off had physio out and then picked up again and she has been fine which still doesnt answer if its structural or internal. Also to mention its not a regular occurence - has happened twice before in 3 years.

Gut feeling says ulcers or reproductive issues but because she is fine on straight lines but not bends made me think KS. I like to hear everyone stories to see if any similarities to mine as I have no experience of any of these. I did have a previous mare that seasoned constantly - she was scanned and put on regumate. she would just bronc all the time at canter - happy to trot but not canter. This horse wants to canter.

Then there's only one thing for it... scope but this will only cover duodenal and stomach ulcers. I'm not sure if they scope for hind gut, or just treat? You seem sure, so probs best to call the vet out.
 

FfionWinnie

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If it's ulcers I would be wondering what caused them ie they are secondary to something else. When you say everything was slightly raised what "everything" specifically?
 

MardyMare

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If it's ulcers I would be wondering what caused them ie they are secondary to something else. When you say everything was slightly raised what "everything" specifically?

Yes this is what I suspect although I really don't know what which is why I have got vet involved. They did blood test - phoned me with result and it was all a bit confusing. I do remember them saying nothing to worry about. Vet coming back Wed for further examination / to discuss where to go from here - so will discuss properly with them then.

I realise its a case of diagnostics but I guess a small part of me hoped someone would say 'my horse did that and it was ...' Nothing to do but wait and see. I was just impatient and it has been good getting these opinions so thank you all for your opinions.
 

tallyho!

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Thing is it doesn't sound specific enough and without seeing the mare, the situation, it's hard to judge although I know and hope you do too, that we on the forum just want to help.

The one thing we all have in common is that we know the feeling when there's something "just not right" with our horses. It's horrid.

With my old boy, it's was specific (even though it was a number of things that caused it!) and the prognosis was not good. It drove me to find ways to keep him whether it was conventional or not. Thankfully he regained full health and I wish the same for your mare, once you get to the bottom of it. Keep us posted and hugs for Wednesday.
 

Wizpop

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Went through a lot of similar diagnostics with my mare last year- was sure it was back/ ulcer related. Refusing to go forward, humping back, had spine X-rays, tried treatment for ulcers from vet, had ovaries scanned.....After lots of trips to vet, turned out to be her hocks. Just my experience but could be worth a thought.....
 
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MardyMare

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Thanks Wizpop - this has crossed my mind too - vets are up later so will keep you posted. Where do you start - it could be so many things after reading the forum posts. Just had my other mare pts 3 weeks ago and this one is supposed to be the one that just does her job so feeling rather disheartened but like someone said everyone knows their horse and when they are trying to tell you something and feel I need to get to the bottom of it as its not her nature to just be naughty. She always very willing and loves to work.
 

Wizpop

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I do understand how you feel- mine was a bit like peeling an onion- and just when we thought we'd got somewhere it'd start again!! Hopefully this will not be the case for you- as you say, they do try to tell us and we know our horses 😊
 

old hand

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Might be worth hopping on her bareback, or get someone else to so you can watch what is happening. I had this with a horse and it was the saddle despite two saddlers saying it was fine. Muscle worker said it was not and showed me where the pressure points were. There was no muscle wastage at all, in fact both saddlers said what a good back he had. The tell tale sign in his case was a build up of muscle over the back of the scapula, it did not react when I tried it but the muscle worker got a very positive reaction to it. He also was very shiny but has improved with a supplement high in vitamin E and selenium which has softened his muscles generally. He backed off under saddle, swished his tail, changed legs wouldn't go forwards etc. His ribs also looked blown but they have improved for the supplement, he often looked in foal before! Starved as a youngster so ulcers or a sensitive gut could be an issue, but is now fine. The supplement has a gut balancer in it. Good luck and hope you find it.
 

MardyMare

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Thanks guys. 2 vets came and did an extensive work up with her. Bottom line is now either lower back / SI / hock and then potentially to look at ovaries / ulcers. She is booked into horspital for full diagnostics / xrays. the day after she looked particularly stiff behind and almost lame on her off hind. Strange thing is on initial straight line walk and trot up the horse presented sound. the circles and lunging on soft surface seemed to aggravate the problem and then on harder ground. I had to saddle the horse up and her back and saddle were looked at and they seemed happy there was nothing on that part of her back and she had no issue / reaction whatsover to be being tacked up / girthed or being mounted.

I am not sure whether I am supposed to keep riding her as the fact sheet says to keep them in work so that the diagnostic vet can see them lame or stiff or however she is. I feel bad if she is sore though and tbh if I try ask her to work over her back she gets tetchy anyway. I think I will phone vet on Monday to find out. I cant do anything this weekend anyway as grooming for a friend at a comp we should have been at.

Will let you know what happens.
 

tallyho!

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Hi Mardymare... thanks for updating us.

Well if it's back pain it's totally sortable :). In fact it's very common.

I attended this extremely informative and enlightening lecture by Visconte Simon Cocozza who specialises in equine back pain. Let me put up a few links which may help you. He has rehabilitated many kissing spines and back injury horses. Fascinating.

http://www.bevet.com/news_and_articles/under_saddle_core_strengthening_exercises_for_horses/

http://www.bevet.com/files/introductiontocorecorrection.pdf

Sorry that this is in German but it's a key clinical paper on KS there my Dr Matilda Holmer. She found that out of 265 horses that were x-rayed, 90% had spinous processes that were either inflamed, damaged or misaligned. She attributes it to modern ways of riding "weak" horses (I think she means, underdeveloped or developed the wrong muscles) in a position that compromises the spine resulting in pressure points on the c17, T1, 2, 3 and along the spine and most commonly the SI joint. She also found that horses that have back problems often have relating stifle, hock, navicular issues due to the strain placed in working in a "compressed frame".

Mind you these are German horses, mostly out of competition due to "injury".
https://edoc.ub.uni-muenchen.de/5777/1/Holmer_Matilda.pdf

This lecture has come just in time for me as I have a mare that hollows so I will certainly be doing things differently from now on.

Visconte Simon Cocozza is in the UK now so may be worth sending him an email.
 

MardyMare

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Thanks Tallyho - very interesting I printed them off.

Update - ended up having a bone scan after hind limb lameness appeared apparent but xrays showed clean. Bonescan resulted in 'hotspots' in back and pelvis. Futher investigation - Kissing spine and sacroilliac problem. I have appointment with vet next week to go discuss it all. KS is bad - needs surgery - sacro may be able to treat with steriod injection.
 

Lulup

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If the back/sacro is compromised then spending two nights in and eating from haynet rather than her usual routine of being turned out/ground level eating may have just been enough to increase the discomfort beyond her normal tolerance level - hence it showing up more at competitions. Just a thought. I've had various horses with neck/back problems and due to all the lecturing from physios/osteos etc I was concerted and never use Haynets for my horses except when travelling. Worth getting a good chiropractor on board xx
 

tallyho!

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Thanks Tallyho - very interesting I printed them off.

Update - ended up having a bone scan after hind limb lameness appeared apparent but xrays showed clean. Bonescan resulted in 'hotspots' in back and pelvis. Futher investigation - Kissing spine and sacroilliac problem. I have appointment with vet next week to go discuss it all. KS is bad - needs surgery - sacro may be able to treat with steriod injection.

So sorry to read this Mardymare :( .... at least you know there have been many success stories to keep you motivated. It's not the end of the line if you have the right support. Perhaps contact some of Sr Cocozza's clients in the UK for advice. PM if you need a contact, happy to help.

p.s. on the haynet thing - haven't used one for 6 years now... they are awful things I agree with Lulup.
 
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