Ulcers mean bad feet too?

[PooJay]

Just pondering really - has there been any research done which links ulcers to horses with bad feet?

Race horses are the worst for ulcers it seems but a lot of them also seem to have really bad feet as well. Is this linked?

Does anyone have a horse who had ulcers and has been treated and you've seen a better quality of hoof start growing?

Does anyone know if there is a link to ulcers and toxins in the bloodstream that results in poor quality horn growth? I know colic can cause laminitis after an attack so could ulcers cause weak horn to grow too?

Just general musings, I don't have a tb or a horse with bad feet but i am interested

 

[LucyPriory]

Just look at the causal factors. Poor digestion/diet/management causes ulcers. Poor digestion/diet/management upsets the hind gut (which can also ulcerate) and one symptom is laminitis.

Feed a species appropriate diet, let them exhibit and use species appropriate behaviours and you will get a lot less of both.

 

[PooJay]

Just look at the causal factors. Poor digestion/diet/management causes ulcers. Poor digestion/diet/management upsets the hind gut (which can also ulcerate) and one symptom is laminitis.

Feed a species appropriate diet, let them exhibit and use species appropriate behaviours and you will get a lot less of both.

Oh yeah, you've got that part of it.....but i'm thinking of those horses who's diet and management has been improved and they're in an appropriate environment for a healthy gut but still have ulcers. Would the ulcers directly have a negative impact on horn growth?

Forgive me, i'm tired, it's been a really long week you may have answered that in your last sentence but for some reason it won't compute.

 

[classicalfan]

Apparently horse who live out and are managed more 'naturally' rarely suffer from ulcers.

 

[LucyPriory]

Oh yeah, you've got that part of it.....but i'm thinking of those horses who's diet and management has been improved and they're in an appropriate environment for a healthy gut but still have ulcers. Would the ulcers directly have a negative impact on horn growth?

Forgive me, i'm tired, it's been a really long week you may have answered that in your last sentence but for some reason it won't compute.

The exact science of laminitis has not been resolved. But there is a clear link between an unhealthy gut and laminitis, it is just the precise mechanism that is being unravelled.

Currently the focus is on toxins leaking from the gut into the blood stream which interferes with the laminae.

Anything which makes the gut unhealthy can kill the 'good' bacteria which can lead eventually to this toxin leak.

And the 'anything' is broader than more generally realised. For example feeding haylage can do it for some, stress for others etc etc

And very few domestic horses in the UK are managed according to the needs of the species.

I am not aware of any published research which has followed horses prone to ulcers which have been moved into a more horse centric environment.

But in support of Classicalfan's comment; I have observed with horses that I have worked with that those with 'behavioural issues' (which are often a sign of undiagnosed ulcers or gut problems) that are moved onto a more horse centric regime seem to improve; some dramatically so.

 

[PooJay]

The exact science of laminitis has not been resolved. But there is a clear link between an unhealthy gut and laminitis, it is just the precise mechanism that is being unravelled.

Currently the focus is on toxins leaking from the gut into the blood stream which interferes with the laminae.

Anything which makes the gut unhealthy can kill the 'good' bacteria which can lead eventually to this toxin leak.

And the 'anything' is broader than more generally realised. For example feeding haylage can do it for some, stress for others etc etc

And very few domestic horses in the UK are managed according to the needs of the species.

I am not aware of any published research which has followed horses prone to ulcers which have been moved into a more horse centric environment.

But in support of Classicalfan's comment; I have observed with horses that I have worked with that those with 'behavioural issues' (which are often a sign of undiagnosed ulcers or gut problems) that are moved onto a more horse centric regime seem to improve; some dramatically so.

Thanks - it's interesting stuff and a bit frightening as well....those of us restricted to livery yards and their rules and environments etc

What would a more horse centric environment be? Masses of scrub land almost? Paddock Paradise? No stables? No riding?







.

 

[LucyPriory]

Thanks - it's interesting stuff and a bit frightening as well....those of us restricted to livery yards and their rules and environments etc

What would a more horse centric environment be? Masses of scrub land almost? Paddock Paradise? No stables? No riding?







.

Well bearing in mind they have evolved to do a lot of miles for very little - anything we can do in that direction helps. They can survive on forage so rough a cow or sheep would starve.

In the domestic environment I encourage clients to hack their (healthy) horses out as far as their fitness and hooves will take them. One client does 20 miles almost daily. Few have that much time.

I also encourage clients to read the small white labels that should be stitched to the bottom of feed sacks. We find molasses and all sorts of cr*p in products which the large writing claims to be laminitic safe, or suitable for a low sugar diet when actually it is anything but.

They also learn that they don't need to feed sugar and starch to fuel their horses. When they are properly fit they have all the zip and zing needed to ping around as required - without the fizziness. But the hard part is training the humans to realise it takes longer to get a horse properly fit than they have been aclimatised to thinking in our current short termist culture.

Those clients able to put up track do reap the rewards - for themselves as well as their horses. Having had a track - when they are well done they are so much easier. And cheaper too but best of all the horses are fitter, happier, less prone to injury and more chilled out (but not cold!)

Eventually livery yards will catch up because it is possible to achieve higher stocking rates with less overall land damage.

One of my clients is an example to us all. A working Mum in a livery yard that is so 'wrong' for so many reasons. Her horse used to colic on grass. Over time we have found a regime and diet that lets him live out 24/7. He gets worked most days, sometimes twice. He is now in rude health and has feet that grow like weeds. No matter how much work she does they barely get worn down at all, even with a lot of work on hard surfaces.

I know some think that it is most 'appropriate' to leave horses to their own devices in a field. But to a horse, evolved to live in a very varied terrain and many miles every day, a field can be just a large prison cell. Which is why I think it really helps to teach them to hack out safely if at all possible. Or for those who think riding is cruel - take them for a very very very long walk every day.

 

[amandap]

I know some think that it is most 'appropriate' to leave horses to their own devices in a field. But to a horse, evolved to live in a very varied terrain and many miles every day, a field can be just a large prison cell. Which is why I think it really helps to teach them to hack out safely if at all possible. Or for those who think riding is cruel - take them for a very very very long walk every day.

I used to believe 24/7 out in a field was good. Since moving here I've learned that out eating grass 24/7 can be a source of many problems too. I have learned that some grass, hay and haylage has far too much sugar for my horses and one or two in particular.

 

[classicalfan]

If anyone would like to do a study regarding ulcers in horses out 24/7 I would happily volunteer our little group. I am afraid I have only anecdotal evidence and cannot remember in which journal I read the original report. And I agree with LucyPriory that a small field can be limiting for some horses.

We specialise in rehab so from our perspective, and in our own experience, horses are more prone to ulcers when stressed and often a traditional environment of a stable yard is stressful for the majority of horses, even if they might not exhibit steriotypical stress behaviour. The horses that have arrived here having had ulcer and/or laminitis problems tend to improve very quickly (physically and mentally). They are out 24/7 but have access to barns if they want shelter - and they also have alot of space. Our smallest field is 25 acres.