Ulcers - the behaviourists "get out of jail and paid" card?

M

Mistywoo

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 March 2013
Messages
60
Visit site
We are seeing a theme amongst friends up and down the country. And there are several "equine behaviourists" (mostly all from the same cast) who are involved here, not just one.

Typical scenario is this. Owner has a problem, gets vet out, vet says horse is fine and that it's behavioural/handling but physio called in anyway for owners peace of mind. Physio finds the normal marginal tightness here and there that all horses have but declares the horse perfectly fine. Eventually behaviourist called in who, after a chat and quick look at the horse/problem, declares there is nothing they can do as the horse quite clearly has ulcers and needs veterinary treatment. Upon owner declaring horse has been checked out, behaviourist bad mouths vet and indicates owner is a terrible and neglectful owner if they don't get a second opinion. Behaviourist walks out having been paid but some behaviourists call/email repeatedly over the following weeks to 'check up' whether their advice has been followed.

One of two things happens next. Either owner ignores behaviourist and issue either grumbles on or resolves, or they have have long winded conversations with their vet which result in them (owner) insisting on scoping the horse. I know at least six people who have insisted on scopes which have resulted in completely clear results. Not one single trace of ulcer. One friend was guilt tripped into spending well over £1500 (because despite the scope being clear the behaviourist was still adamant the horse had ulcers so she paid for 6 months of treatment which the horse did not respond to). Is anyone else seeing this?

I am aware that ulcers are a real and painful problem, that more horses are affected than we are possibly aware, and that it's a condition which needs to be taken seriously and ruled out. But honestly? Is anyone else seeing people marketed as "behaviourists" who are guilt tripping people into spending vast amounts of money against veterinary advice without actually offering any handling/behavioural advice? It seems like a quick way to make £50 to me! Rock up, have a chat, 'diagnose' ulcers, walk out £50 better off without actually offering any of the expertise you were paid for!
 
Last edited:
People only get guilt tripped if they allow themselves to be guilt tripped surely?

So many people want to find something wrong rather than blame their own management
 
BoolavogueDC said:
What on earth is a horse behaviourist?
The horse world is becoming so crazy that I am becoming more and more happy to be out if it!
Click to expand...

Allegedly someone who can come in to help with 'behavioural' problems. Things like barging when lead, not loading, being hard to catch etc. If you compare to the equivalent in the dog world it should be a job training people on how to manage certain behaviours effectively through an understanding of those behaviours.
 
No I haven't heard of this happening and don't really understand why any business person would want to make a quick £50 for a one off visit when repeat business is the key to success. Unless the 'behaviourist' really believed there was something physically wrong I can't see what they would be getting out of it long term??
 
What are the problem behaviours that are being blamed on ulcers?

Which behaviourists are being implicated here? Your writing "same cast" implies that there is a specific subset. I would be astonished if all those who describe themselves as behaviourists do this. What else do they have in common (apart from concluding ulcers as the cause)?
 
WelshD said:
People only get guilt tripped if they allow themselves to be guilt tripped surely?

So many people want to find something wrong rather than blame their own management
Click to expand...

I agree with this fully on most levels. However if you have acknowledged that there is a management/handling error and employed someone to help you resolve it you would hope that they would do this rather than taking advantage of the human condition to prefer it to be a problem other than their own!

Wheels - lots keep coming back, and can be quite pushy about it. I even know of one who insisted on going with the horse and owner to the vets to be 'supportive' in case the vet came back with a negative result because she "wasn't going to let owner be fobbed off". I think that particular person (acquaintance and not friend in this case) was strung for about 6/7 hours (£50 an hour) before seeing sense.
 
You are forgetting that hind gut ulcers don't show on a scope.

Surely it would be unethical for a behaviourist - who suspects ulcers - to say nothing and come and do several expensive sessions with the horse anyway, even though they suspect that the cause of the behaviour is pain?

I do know someone who's horse was helped greatly by an IH trainer. They aren't all charlatans getting owners to spend vast sums with Vets... plus how does the behaviourist benefit from that?... unless the Vet is giving them a cut, which is highly unlikely.

ETA I've just seen this part of your new post...

I think that particular person (acquaintance and not friend in this case) was strung for about 6/7 hours (£50 an hour) before seeing sense.

Well sadly there is good and bad in all aspects of professional horse people. I try to go by personal recommendation, but even then you have to use your common sense and do some research yourself so that you can tell good from bad.
 
Last edited:
fburton said:
What are the problem behaviours that are being blamed on ulcers?

Which behaviourists are being implicated here? Your writing "same cast" implies that there is a specific subset. I would be astonished if all those who describe themselves as behaviourists do this. What else do they have in common (apart from concluding ulcers as the cause)?
Click to expand...

I didn't mean to imply that all behaviourists do this. My sincere apologies if it has come across this way, my intention was to make the point that this isn't one person. And yes, every single incidence I know of, bar one, has had a behaviourist trained in the same way. I don't think it's appropriate to mention the method on a public forum. Especially as I appear to be the only one who has noticed a theme! Perhaps my sample is skewed!

Re the ulcers, just about everything. From not being caught, not loading, pushy when handled, reluctant to pick feet up. Predominately new horses to the owners, most of which were 5 stage vetted and none of which show any of the highly obvious ulcer reactions like girthiness or skin/grooming sensitivity.
 
Mistywoo, I didn't for a minute think you were tarring all behaviourists - so no need to apologize! I imagined there might be a common thread linking the ones you had in mind. That's why I asked.
 
The thing is that horses are naturally very willing and compliant animals. they want to please their handler/rider, so when a horse starts really acting up one should first look to see if there is a cause like pain or sometimes a reaction due to a past experience.
My WB was so aggressive and yes he had ulcers and also chronic pain from an undiagnosed SI injury. He came to me aggressive almost from the outset. I did work with an experienced handler (not a behaviourist) and we tried all the normal things one would. This included ignoring his bad behaviour, rewarding his good behaviour, remaining solid and detached from his behaviour and very positive and meaningful handling.

I learnt a lot of useful techniques but the basic behavioural problems did not diminish or go away. He was shouting for help and I eventually got him scoped - treated his mild ulcers and then got him diagnosed at Newmarket and treated. Then his behaviour changed.

I think an experienced behaviourist can recognise the difference between bad learned behaviour and reactionary behaviour. I think you may be generalising - I have heard of many more cases of ulcers being suspected and diagnosed, but I suspect this is down to cheaper scoping availability and maybe the feedstuffs we are feeding being inadequate. So many owners feed plentiful hard feed and little fibre leaving horses with empty stomachs for too long periods.
 
Y&C I don't deny that ulcers are a problem, and some cases quite clearly, yes, need investigating and treating.

I however am referring to comparatively (to aggression anyway which is not a natural stance for a horse to take) minor behaviour issues on horses who have already been seen to and discussed by a vet and physio. We are also talking 'leisure horses', happy hackers, local show type horses (i.e. low stress levels) who are kept out most of the year, good doers fed on soaked hay and fibre based bucket feeds (no 'hard' feed in sight), usually more for the owners than the horses needs. Rather than competition horses (high stress levels with travelling/competing) stood stabled with copious hard feed and not enough forage. One of my friends in question has actually designed her own trickle feeding systems, so she knows all about continuous access to forage and has actually helped me on that front.

Surely a behaviourist who may expect to encounter horses with ulcers (and indeed other conditions) must have some sort of flagging system.

A pony who is the picture of health, with continuous access to forage & no hard feed, living a low stress lifestyle, minor handling/behavioural issue and none of the 'alarm bells' of ulcers (hind or fore) such as girthiness, sensitive skin, tucked up etc is unlikely to be suffering with ulcers and surely warrants looking at training/handling methods first, especially as the vet and physio had both cleared!
 
Mistywoo said:
A pony who is the picture of health, with continuous access to forage & no hard feed, living a low stress lifestyle, minor handling/behavioural issue and none of the 'alarm bells' of ulcers (hind or fore) such as girthiness, sensitive skin, tucked up etc is unlikely to be suffering with ulcers and surely warrants looking at training/handling methods first, especially as the vet and physio had both cleared!
Click to expand...

I agree - I think any behavioursit/trainer should be looking at handling methods anyway regardless, as was done with my WB if only to discount any physical problem.
 
A "communicator" visited a horse on our yard. Said horse was not happy with his name and wanted to be called something else. Name has now been changed. WTF. And they paid good money for that.
 
A "reputable" behavourist has seen lots and lots of difficult horses, under many different circumstances. A vet sees ill horses.

I think most behavourist would want to make several repeat visits to a difficult horse, to help the owner work out the best way to get the horse to co-operate and behave. So if the said behavourist calls once and says they don't think there is anything they can do as the horse is in pain, I would be inclined to believe them.

I have heard many weird and wonderful tales of VERY difficult horses, and the happy outcome is that the owners dug really hard, sometimes for many years, and often against the ridicule of their vet, to find out what was causing the horse problems. Resut - pain gone = normal horse.
 
Mistywoo said:
A pony who is the picture of health, with continuous access to forage & no hard feed, living a low stress lifestyle, minor handling/behavioural issue and none of the 'alarm bells' of ulcers (hind or fore) such as girthiness, sensitive skin, tucked up etc is unlikely to be suffering with ulcers and surely warrants looking at training/handling methods first, especially as the vet and physio had both cleared!
Click to expand...

If you read through ulcer posts on here, then this is not always the case.

I had a horse whom I was convinced would have ulcers, she was in a dreadful state. Scope came back clear.

Other horse, whom I had checked just as a precaution, had a stomach full of ulcers that had been there a long time. You never can tell with them.
 
Mistywoo said:
A pony who is the picture of health, with continuous access to forage & no hard feed, living a low stress lifestyle, minor handling/behavioural issue and none of the 'alarm bells' of ulcers (hind or fore) such as girthiness, sensitive skin, tucked up etc is unlikely to be suffering with ulcers and surely warrants looking at training/handling methods first, especially as the vet and physio had both cleared!
Click to expand...

You are quite right M - unlikely, but not impossible. The mare pictured below had no signs except mild cribbing after hard feeds, which she's done for years. No other indicators and she lived out 24/7 with ad lib hay when there wasn't enough grass. She died from colic (PTS) due to a haemorrhaging ulcer.

100_2226.jpg
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top