Un shod brood mares, diet advice please

[ribbons]

I am calling them unshod as they are not ridden so I'm guessing barefoot is the wrong term.
I have followed the bare foot threads with much interest and some amusement. I am interested in opinions from the likes of Oberon and cptrayes as they appear to be very knowledgable in this subject.
I have several brood mares, including two TB's. All except one of the TB have super feet with no problems whatsoever. She however is very sensitive. When shod and in ridden work if she lost a shoe her behaviour said she had broken a leg at the very least.
So, I would appreciate any helpful views on what her diet should be in order to support her hoof health and provide everything she needs during pregnancy and lactation.
All mares are on very good grazing (even in winter it's never poor) with
the addition of haylage and hard feed at appropriate times of pregnancy and feeding foal. All other mares are fine, and indeed this one is in excellent condition and produces strong healthy foals, just always very footy on any surface other than grass.
I have read much on this forum regarding barefoot diet, but since the broodmare has specific dietary requirements and I've never seen the subject discussed, I thought I would ask. If I can do anything to help the old birds comfort I would be delighted. Any suggestions welcomed.

 

[Maesfen]

My broodmares have been unshod for years with no problems whatsoever with their feet and they're on what I would call a normal diet which includes something like an economy mix at maintenance time, stud feeds when appropriate, hay or haylage as available and always out at grass. The only supplements I use are brewers yeast, linseed and possibly Kossolian but only use that in last trimester. They're just treated like normal horses and I have to say I find all the barefoot hoo-ha very confusing and a bit dictatorial if I'm honest but then I'm one of those that accept if something doesn't work well try something else. All horses are different and not all horses can work without shoes, people need to accept that not persevere just because it's what they want to happen; horses don't work like that.

 

[ribbons]

Thanks maesfen, yes all mine are fed like yours, altering hard feed to support pregnancy in last trimester and lactation, a fibre
maintenance diet at other times.
I am totally happy that their diet is correct for breeding and youngstock, the proof is in their condition and quality.
I just wondered is small adjustments may help this one particular mare's hoof quality. With out compromising her nutritional needs as a brood mare.

 

[Maesfen]

I've always found that both brewers yeast and linseed improve the quality of both hooves and skin; I feed it alongside anything else mine have. My farrier certainly notices the difference if I have a new horse in that wasn't fed them before.

 

[ribbons]

Right, thanks for that I'll give brewers yeast a try. I know there is much made of sugar in the diet. Bit difficult to avoid in the grass, and I don't think restricting grazing is a good idea. Thanks maesfen.

 

[JanetGeorge]

What you need to look at if if the hoof quality is poor - in which case a supplement might help - or whether she is just a 'typical' TB with flattish feet and thin soles. I have two of these - they hop down the drive (on the stones) but are fine on grass. Only two things I have found that help.

1. Get farrier to LIGHTLY trim - and do it more often - and NOT trim the frog unless it's VERY raggy.

2. Treat soles only with Keratex - it toughens them up a bit.

 

[ribbons]

thanks Janet, i think it is probably the flat thin soled TB option to be honest. I cant see that her diet could be missing anything, she is in fantastic condition generally and i'm perfectly happy with the brood mare diet they all do brilliantly on. She is fine on grass but hops like a cripple on anything stoney and always has.
I just wondered about all the new research and advice i keep reading about on here, although the big thing seems to be removing all possible sugars from the diet, which would be pretty much impossible on good grass, and i'm a firm believer in grass for broodmares. your right about trimming though, i've found over the years she does better without to much trimming to often.
So i'll just carry on as normal and accept its the way she is, to be honest she only has to walk up and down the drive once a day so no real problem, just thought i'd investigate the newer opinions in case something had emerged that i'd missed. It seems not. Many thanks for your reply.

 

[TwoStroke]

Flat feet and thin soles are a by product of a diet which is not agreeing with that particular horse. These things are not afflictions which have to be accepted - they can be improved.

It sounds as though this horse is more sensitive to the sugars in the grass than the others. If she's a broodie living out with the others, then it sounds as though there isn't much you can realistically do to reduce sugar intake, unless you're willing to set up a track or restriced grazing system and feed hay/haylage instead.

I would suggest adding some yeast (yea sacc) to try and assist the metabolism of the excess NSCs, and perhaps some MagOx as well, and see if there is an improvement.

Aside from that you could go for broke and do a grazing analysis and feed a balanced mineral plan. Other things which could possibly help would be an area of pea gravel (around the water trough for eg) to increase the stimulation to the feet. But tbh without tackling the problem of excess sugar, there's only so much you can do.

 

[JanetGeorge]

Flat feet and thin soles are a by product of a diet which is not agreeing with that particular horse. These things are not afflictions which have to be accepted - they can be improved.

Sorry - but that broad statement is simply NOT true! Flat feet and thin soles START as a conformation issue which is genetic! Obviously you can do things to improve them - especially if they're spotted in very young horses (which is why we start trimming our foals at 3 months old - or even sooner if they don't look 'right') - but you can see them in very young foals whose only diet is mother's milk!

 

[tallyho!]

I think if your other two mares who are on the same diet are fine and one isn't it may be that she has very marginal metabolic/genetic factors affecting her. Just like people, some people can eat loads and never put on weight, others only have to walk past Starbucks and put on three pounds! Like me!!

So diet may be fine and not need anything but have you thought about testing her for metabolic imbalance by vet? A simple blood test may reveal what is the matter. In brood mares, I too would be wary about adding in minerals as this can have an effect on the growth of the foetus.

Also, if the feet are exposed to mostly soft ground, they adapt to that environment. If they were periodically allowed access to harder ground, over time they will adapt to that surface. The studies in feral horses do show that feet can adapt according to environment but not overnight obviously.

The other thing you can do which is a bit of a faff but you could boot her over the stoney bits.

 

[cptrayes]

My friend has a hugely insulin resistant broodmare who had to be starved under veterinary supervision to get her to ovulate. She had to be got in foal or be put down, because she was so sore on her feet and being in foal, as far as the body is concerned, is being in work*

She is pregnant and her insulin scores are now normal, so it's worked. The Vet has recommended that when the mare needs more food for the growing foal, she feeds straight oats and up to 500ml a day of oil, but to add vitamin E if she feeds that much oil. She also has a low cal balancer for vits and mins.

Her grazing is heavily restricted. In during the day, muzzled at night.

I hope that helps.



* she was already a high class brood mare, this wasn't a case of shoving her in foal because no-one else knew what to do with her.

 

[TwoStroke]

Sorry - but that broad statement is simply NOT true! Flat feet and thin soles START as a conformation issue which is genetic! Obviously you can do things to improve them - especially if they're spotted in very young horses (which is why we start trimming our foals at 3 months old - or even sooner if they don't look 'right') - but you can see them in very young foals whose only diet is mother's milk!

I think that yours is the broad statement that is not true . Flat feet and thin soles are rarely a conformation issue which is genetic.

Where does the mother's milk come from? If you analysed it, do you think that all mare's milk would have exactly the same nutrients, regardless of the diet that the mother herself was on? Of course not.

 

[ribbons]

Tallyho, your comment about slowly adapting to the surface they are on makes perfect sense. I have often thought part of the problem is that 99% of time she is on grass or bedding so when she does encounter stoney ground she feels it. However the others having the same routine obviously points to the fact that her feet are generally more sensitive than theirs. She has always had flat thin soled feet, whilst shod it was never a problem but as I said previously, a lost shoe resulted in the instant action of ' I have broken my leg'.
A very dramatic mare in this area.
After becoming a brood mare and having shoes removed it took several months of hopping on ALL surfaces before she was ok on grass bedding and actually ok on perfectly smooth concrete. Anything even slightly stoney has the drama queen back.
Many thanks for everyone's thoughts.

 

[cptrayes]

Sorry - but that broad statement is simply NOT true! Flat feet and thin soles START as a conformation issue which is genetic! Obviously you can do things to improve them - especially if they're spotted in very young horses (which is why we start trimming our foals at 3 months old - or even sooner if they don't look 'right') - but you can see them in very young foals whose only diet is mother's milk!

I don't believe that the majority of thin soles and flat feet start at birth from heredity.

You can tell that from the number of thin soled and flat footed horses which you put on a restricted sugars diet with full mineral balancing to the forage that they are one which then suddenly miraculously develop concavity and thicker soles. I've done three and other people on here have done tons more. I have never come across one which did not improve when that was done which was not suffering from either IR or Cushings.

As for your foals, if the mother is copper deficient so will its milk be. Copper deficiency due to iron and manganese overload is proving to be astonishingly common now that forage analysis is being done by horse owners in larger numbers, so I mention that one though other imbalances could cause the same result in a susceptible horse. Some are more sensitive than others.

 

[Laafet]

I don't know what to say really, I've never really got the whole being barefoot is special. I've seen many TB fillies come out of training with the most appalling feet, which IMO is to do with how they shod more than anything else, the shoes come off, they are put in a field (with no rug) and a registered farrier trims them as much as needed every 4 weeks from then onwards. The majority cope fine, some still require shoeing in front, some are intermittently shod if the needs arise. Funnily enough apart from those with horrendous conformation most of them have nice looking, not flat feet! They get fed if the grass is poor and then for the whole of the last trimester on a good stud balancer and then stud pencils or mix depending on their condition and weight. They have access to field licks and live out 24/7 until January until May.

 

[cptrayes]

Thanks Janet, i think it is probably the flat thin soled TB option to be honest. I cant see that her diet could be missing anything, she is in fantastic condition generally and i'm perfectly happy with the brood mare diet they all do brilliantly on. She is fine on grass but hops like a cripple on anything stoney and always has.

Horses can look in perfect condition and still have mineral imbalances. Often the only place it shows is in the feet, which is one reason why the myth of genetically inherited feet that are too weak to walk on persists.

The commonest one is copper deficiency caused by an excess of iron and manganese. That upsets insulin regulation and causes thin soles and sensitive feet.

I just wondered about all the new research

There is unfortunately precious little actual research but a large and increasing amount of anecdotal evidence building up.

i'm a firm believer in grass for broodmares.

If your mare is like my friend's broodmare and just can't grow feet that she can stand on when she has that access to grass, why would you be a firm believer in it? It's not just the feet that are out of sorts with a horse of that kind, it's the gut and the liver too. I often think that horses with such a grass sensitivity must live with a permanent hangoever.

So i'll just carry on as normal and accept its the way she is

What a shame that you would leave her living permanently with aching feet if you can do something about it. If you have trouble getting her in foal in future, try testing for insulin resistance.

just thought i'd investigate the newer opinions in case something had emerged that i'd missed. It seems not. Many thanks for your reply.

It has - fewer sugars and mineral balancing, and you have been told about them in posts above, and in spite of saying that you would do anything to help the old bird's comfort you just don't seem to want to hear it, so I wonder why you asked??

If you are adamant that you will not restrict her grazing please at least try supplementing magnesium oxide 25g and yeast (yea-sacc 15g), both of which have been helpful to many footie horses. And also copper bioplex 4 grams (no more, weigh carefully) and just see what effect it has. None of those can hurt her and they might help.

 

[ribbons]

Ouch cptrayes, did I deserve that telling off. I hope not.
Most of the comments I made were before I had received much response from anyone. I am disappointed that after asking for advice and opinion, particularly from yourself because I felt you had a wealth of knowledge on the subject of diet/ barefoot and hoped that could extend to the needs of a broodmare, that the result was more than a little condescending. She is not in agony and permanent pain, this mare has a very low pain threshold and believe me if she is hurting, even a little bit, I know about it. I was looking for suggestions, opinions and advice. Obviously not in the right place, sorry to have bothered you.
Many thanks to everyone else for their suggestions.

 

[cptrayes]

I think you are making too much of the broodmare thing. My friend has broodmares and barefoot working horses. One of her broodmares is a diagnosed insulin resistant. There is no difference in the way that mare has been treated than any working barefoot horse with sore feet. She is pregnant and holding and on the vets advice her additional calorie needs will be met with oats and oil, which is exactly what any working barefoot horse with a bad sugar sensitivity would be given.

You wanted a magic pill? We can't give you one. What we have done is advise you to treat the horse like any other barefoot horse with sore feet. We have told you all we know, we aren't geniuses or scientists in the main on this board. But you rejected every bit of advice on that except for saying you would feed yeast, and instead jumped wholeheartedly to agreeing with JanetGeorge that your mare simply has genetically thin soles.

You didn't "bother me", it is a pleasure to be able to try and help anyone. Some people are responsive and some just come out with all the reasons why they can't do what you are suggesting. Cela vie.

 

[ribbons]

Actually I'm not stupid, nor was I looking for a magic pill. I was looking for advice and suggestion. I did not expect it
delivered in such an acidic tone.
I shall be taking the kindly offered suggestion by tallyho and get the mare blood tested.
I have been breeding for 40 years and I know very well the nutritional needs of a brood mare. What I don't know much about is the way tweaking diet can improve a horses unshod hooves. I have read on here much information on the subject but nothing about changing diet for brood mares who DO have different nutritional needs. So I was looking for opinions on that. I tried to respond to everyone politely whatever their thoughts as they were given to me that way.
Your opinions and knowledge are probably very valid and valuable, unfortunately I do not take well to being spoken to like a naughty unreceptive school child.
It seems a shame that your knowledge will probably be rejected by most people if that is your usual way of delivering it.
Having said that I will look into some of your suggestions, because I am interested in finding out if the required diet is compatable to the needs of a brood mare. Once I have the necessary information I will make a decision about any changes I can make IF they will benefit my
mare. Sadly in my case, respect for someone with more knowledge than myself is a prerequisite if I am to benefit from that knowledge.

 

[ribbons]

By the way, looking back through the thread I have not rejected any advice, in fact the only responses I made after my origional post were made before anyone other than Janet or maesfen posted, until I replied to tally ho.
You launched your attack before I had even had time to consider and respond to the suggestions being offered by others. Please don't assume what I am taking on board and what I am not.

 

[cptrayes]

You have rejected reducing the mare's grass intake which is probably the number one suspect in her flat feet and thin soles, which you have instead decided are due to heredity, because for some reason it suits you to believe that your brood mares need grass. I am assuming nothing, I am reading what you have written.

 

[ribbons]

I have rejected nothing. I am considering all points made. I have always been of the opinion grass is the best thing for brood mares. Old fashioned ? Possibly, and I am prepared to look at other options. You on the other hand are so convinced you are right ( which you may or may not be) you quickly resort to sarcasm and insults if you feel your opinions are not instantly accepted as gospel truth.
I notice from other threads you often fail to read other people's posts correctly in your rush to tell them what they must do.
I am so sorry I asked for your opinion. Your attitude has completely tainted my previous desire to obtain your advice.

 

[cptrayes]

thanks Janet, i think it is probably the flat thin soled TB option to be honest.

And after being told what was wrong with her diet

I cant see that her diet could be missing anything,

You are annoyed with me for suggesting that you are leaving a horse with sore feet, but you wrote

She is fine on grass but hops like a cripple on anything stoney and always has.

You say you have not ruled out anything, yet write this.

I just wondered about all the new research and advice i keep reading about on here, although the big thing seems to be removing all possible sugars from the diet, which would be pretty much impossible on good grass and i'm a firm believer in grass for broodmares.

and this

So i'll just carry on as normal and accept its the way she is

and in spite of people telling you what you are missing, this:

just thought i'd investigate the newer opinions in case something had emerged that i'd missed. It seems not.

and this:

I am totally happy that their diet is correct for breeding and youngstock, the proof is in their condition and quality.

And now you say that she isn't really uncomfortable on her feet, but described her earlier like this:

She has always had flat thin soled feet, whilst shod it was never a problem but as I said previously, a lost shoe resulted in the instant action of ' I have broken my leg'.
A very dramatic mare in this area.{or maybe just in a lot of pain?}
After becoming a brood mare and having shoes removed it took several months of hopping on ALL surfaces before she was ok on grass bedding and actually ok on perfectly smooth concrete. Anything even slightly stoney has the drama queen back. {[or the pain back?}

I have rejected nothing.

Then why do you write what you write?

You on the other hand are so convinced you are right ( which you may or may not be) you quickly resort to sarcasm and insults if you feel your opinions are not instantly accepted as gospel truth.
I notice from other threads you often fail to read other people's posts correctly in your rush to tell them what they must do.
I am so sorry I asked for your opinion. Your attitude has completely tainted my previous desire to obtain your advice.

Ribbons all I have done is to respond to what you have written. If you don't want the responses don't write what you write.

 

[Maesfen]

And yet CPT, in the other thread about copper deficiency you admit flat soles might be inherited. Why is this broodmare different?

 

[Miss L Toe]

Ribbons, sorry to butt in here, but you seem to be saying that you won't be significantly changing the management of this mare, namely access to good grass which is probably the main factor involved in her poor feet.
Heredity or not, nature or nurture, improvement can only be achieved by changing things, otherwise nothing will change.
It matters not that you have been doing the job for forty years, others have been doing the same, but are willing to change if it will improve the situation. Forty years ago we could find old pasture, unfertilised, which had never been re-sown with ryegrass, now these old pastures are rare, and horses are the ones who suffer.

 

[cptrayes]

And yet CPT, in the other thread about copper deficiency you admit flat soles might be inherited. Why is this broodmare different?

You would have to remind me, in context, of what I said Maesfen. I suspect it was along the lines of what I have written here, that flatter and thinner soles are obviously genetically inherited, but not to the extent that they do not allow a horse to stand on its own feet.

I will, as I think has been clear in our previous exchanges, happily accept that there are a few horses which cannot manage barefoot. But as far as any individual one goes, I will not accept that until after the owner has tried all the things that normally bring a barefoot horse completely sound on stones. This owner has said that she will not do that.

Which is a shame, because I am not aware of any flat footed, thin soled horses that have not improved when their owners restricted their diets and fed balanced minerals. And in front of my eyes I have seen a crippled broodmare come completely sound, by doing just exactly what Ribbons says she cannot do with a brood mare.

Which brings to mind a very good question, I think.

Ribbons, if you are sure this mare's feet, by your own description hopping lame when not in shoes, are genetically inherited, what on earth are you doing breeding from her?

 

[ribbons]

Good god do you actually read what I have written correctly.
I have never said her footiness is genetically inherited.

I have never said I will not try other methods to what she has now.

Most of my comments you have quoted were made at a point when I had not yet received any other suggestions. They were simply saying the way things
were and my thoughts on her management generally. I would not be asking if I wasn't interested in alternatives.

I have admitted I have the experience to know her diet is
Correct for brood mares generally but lack knowledge in specific diet for foot health and wanted to know if the two could be compatable.

Like I said previously, if I had had time to respond to the advice given before you jumped on me it would have read very differently.

There are things you and others have said that make sense for this mare, what I'm objecting to is being spoken to by you as if I'm an idiot.

I asked the question, looking for advice and opinion, when it looked like I was not going to hear anything different for a brood mare foot problems I commented that maybe nothing could change. Then the other opinions began to be posted but before I could digest and reply you get stuck in, insulting me and quoting my comments as if I'd made them AFTER receiving new advice.

To be honest I'm sick of listening to you, which is a shame because I still think you know what your talking about, just have no idea how to share it.

 

[ribbons]

I can't quote on phone but look at your last post. You quote me replying to Janet, saying probably is a flat foot thin soled thing.
You then in your high handed arrogant manner state ' and after being told what was wrong with her diet.'
I had been advised no such thing at the point I made that post.

That is just one of many examples of you quoting me out of context. Try reading what is said accurately and more importantly at what point in the thread it's been said


Miss toe, I have never said I won't be changing things, it's why I asked the question. I have also said my opinions may be old fashioned, again why I looked for different ones. But boy you guys don't like to advise do you, dictate only. No wonder your called the Taliban.

 

[cptrayes]

Good god do you actually read what I have written correctly.
I have never said her footiness is genetically inherited.

Then what on earth did you mean by this? :

, i think it is probably the flat thin soled TB option to be honest.

I have never said I will not try other methods to what she has now.

I am not the only one that read what you wrote saying that you were not prepared to take a brood mare off grass.

I have admitted I have the experience to know her diet is
Correct for brood mares generally but lack knowledge in specific diet for foot health and wanted to know if the two could be compatable.

They can be compatible. But what you wrote seemed to suggest that you do not think it can.

There are things you and others have said that make sense for this mare, what I'm objecting to is being spoken to by you as if I'm an idiot........ To be honest I'm sick of listening to you, which is a shame because I still think you know what your talking about, just have no idea how to share it

Please feel free to put me on "ignore". Meanwhile, I will continue to respond as I always do to what people write, but you are not obliged to see it, never mind read it.

 

[TwoStroke]

I have admitted I have the experience to know her diet is
Correct for brood mares generally but lack knowledge in specific diet for foot health and wanted to know if the two could be compatable.

This is an interesting point. I don't doubt that her current diet is proven to produce good strong foals, and horses which live on good grass do tend to look 'well'. For me, however, there's a fundemental conflict if a diet doesn't produce good feet.

Good feet are rarely possible unless the diet is at least in the right ball park. So if a horse has foot pathologies imo it's unlikely to be on a diet which suits that individual horse.

When it comes to balancing what you know gets results when feeding broodmares against the evidence shown in their feet, there won't be one answer to fit all horses. After all, horses have been breeding for millions of years on a diet which they've evolved to thrive on (scrubby, low NSC, high fibre stuff).

But it's not just the diet. What's your field like? Smooth, flat, 100% grass? Or hilly with different surfaces? Feet need stimulation as well as an appropriate diet, which is why people find tracks so effective.

That's my two penny's worth, anyway .