Unbelievable! Vets offering mating service!

s4sugar said:
Lurchers are pedigree -cross bred but pedigree. Do you not know the different between a pedigree & a purebred. I have no problem with someone adopting a dog from a pound or rescue situation but it is staements such as you have made that can lead to mutts being produced. FWIW I spend a lot of time explaining to clients why "fluffy" should not be bred from.

Few pure breds are worthy of being allowed to reproduce but no mutt should breed. There are too many pups born and too few permanent homes.
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what breeding do you feel produces a lurcher?

what do you class as a pedigree?

'There are too many pups born and too few permanent homes.'
i agree with the statement above but wonder why anyone feels they should be the authority on what types of dog are allowed to breed
 
s4sugar said:
So you are happy for dogs to be allowed to reproduce indescriminately - maybe allowed to roam or do you prefer ferals?
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How did you come to that conclusion ? How does anything I've said indicate I favour unneutered dogs being left to roam ?

I dislike the arrogant attitude that only breeders are capable of producing healthy dogs. They aren't.
Not all pet owners suddenly lose their intelligence and decision-making abilities when they walk into the vets.

And, just a thought. Perhaps this vet is tired of treating inbred pedigree dogs with health problems that should never have happened if the breeders had been breeding for the right reasons. Maybe, he thinks his clients could do a better job.
 
Jools2345 said:
what breeding do you feel produces a lurcher?

what do you class as a pedigree?

'There are too many pups born and too few permanent homes.'
i agree with the statement above but wonder why anyone feels they should be the authority on what types of dog are allowed to breed
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A pedigree is a family tree. That is a statement of fact - nothing to do with how I class it.
My fish have pedigrees ( part of a species preservation project) so does my cross bred horse so does my dog & my cats which are all registered pure breeds although one is graded up from an aproved outcross 4 generations back.

A lurcher is a long dog x herding dog. Typically a greyhound x working type collie but spreads to include other longdog crosses. If bred for a purpose, the only reason to breed them, the parents and grandparents should be known and therefore a lurcher should have a pedigree. Any animal being bred from should have any relevent health TESTS performed before breeding. BYB & mass breeders don't do this, neither do the "It's my dog & I'll breed if I want to" types.
Any dog from the pound will have lost it's papers and have no known ancestry so you cannot know just what is behind. (The same applies to some puppy farmed puppies)
 
Jools2345 said:
........ i shant be giving any support to the kennel club by buying a pedigree though as i feel they have been largely responsible for the down fall of many breeds despite the determined efforts of good breeders
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I'm not too sure about that. Breed Societies and Clubs are just as culpable.

"i have no doubt that good breeders are doing everything to rectify problems that were created many moons ago" (Previously printed in red).

I'm not too sure about that, either.

In the early and mid-70s, Labradors, Golden Retrievers and Alsations (as they were then) had serious hip problems. The breeding world was aware of this. Since that time, and whilst hips are now a matter of record, we now have spaniels with HD and just about every breeding gundog with a risk of elbow problems, amongst other life limiting complaints.

A simple question ; If the heritable problems have been receiving the attention of the Veterinary profession, and the Breed Societies and the Kennel Club, how come that over the last 30+ years, the situation has worsened?

When I was serious about working gundogs, it was fashionable to blame the show bench for the problems. I never quite understood that one, because the show bench, and the work bred dogs were virtually separate breeds, and it would be highly unusual for a mixing of the two types.

For all the fact that we now have a myriad of testing for an equal number of inheritable complaints, I suspect that the situation is worsening (certainly the perceived risk is), rather than improving, and I wonder why.

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
.For all the fact that we now have a myriad of testing for an equal number of inheritable complaints, I suspect that the situation is worsening (certainly the perceived risk is), rather than improving, and I wonder why.

Alec.
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Gene pool too small. Maybe we need to breed some 'new' breeds. Thoughful cross breeding suitable breeds that don't share health issues would be a start. There is a good case for some of the least healthy breeds not to to be bred at all any more.
 
There's evidence that the incidence of HD in the Siberian husky has actually significantly decreased in the last 30 years. This is a breed in which there isn't (or at least shouldn't be) any division between the working and show animal.

I have no answer for you Alec, just wanted to put the above out there.

I dislike that every discussion around pedigree dogs results in the 'what about bulldogs' line - there are plenty other pedigree dog breeds that are still dog shaped and capable of good health, no need to drag them down to the lowest denominator.
 
I think the problem with a lot of the pet or BYB type breeding scenarios is that they are breeding to create 'cute' rather than functional dogs! Like Foxy1 says, if people were crossing breeds that didn't share genetic problems and purposefully breeding certain traits out of lines, then perhaps there would be more logic to it! But mainly people aren't, they are breeding for cuteness and profit.
I wouldn't deny that a lot of good kennel club registered breeders do consider profit as a partial motive - certainly the breeder of my current pup made a healty amount of money from his litter!! But she also did the best she could with testing etc to ensure the long term health of the pups, and as its a breed with relatively few congenital health problems, I'm hopeful he isn't at any more risk than your average mutt, if anything, less so.
 
I have just gone onto the site and read this page:

http://www.nethanvets.com/veterinary-team/claire/

I suspect there is some research agenda behind this "mating service". She has already done a fair amount of published research. Quite a few vets and behaviourists feel that the criteria advocated for dog breeding do not sufficiently target the psychological traits desirable in animals who are going to be pets. It does not mean they would advocate breeding from physically unsound animals. See "In defence of Dogs" by John Bradshaw. Controversial but food for thought.
 
planete said:
Quite a few vets and behaviourists feel that the criteria advocated for dog breeding do not sufficiently target the psychological traits desirable in animals who are going to be pets.
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That in isolation is definitely a good thing.

What kind of a breeder, for example, would know that breeding from say, a tail-spinner or a resource-guarder might not, actually, be the best idea in the world?
 
s4sugar said:
A pedigree is a family tree. That is a statement of fact - nothing to do with how I class it.

so my lurcher may or maynot be a pedigree you would not know unless i told you?

A lurcher is a long dog x herding dog. Typically a greyhound x working type collie but spreads to include other longdog crosses. If bred for a purpose, the only reason to breed them, the parents and grandparents should be known and therefore a lurcher should have a pedigree. Any animal being bred from should have any relevent health TESTS performed before breeding. BYB & mass breeders don't do this, neither do the "It's my dog & I'll breed if I want to" types.

a lurher is any sighthound mixed/crossed with any other dog. a long dog is a sighthound bred to another sighthound

Any dog from the pound will have lost it's papers and have no known ancestry so you cannot know just what is behind. (The same applies to some puppy farmed puppies)
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why would that worry me? i only want the dog that stands in front of me i ave nointerest in breeding as there are far too many dogs full stop regardless of breed/type/pedigree/purebred or not, i am not the only person who does not consider what is behind the dog in front of them as being important
 
Most lurcher pups dont have a massive sale value. The ones that do sell well are from good working lines. The majority of the lurcher pups I know being bred are from good working stock, its definitely frowned upon and rarely done, in my limited experience, to breed from your lurcher without thought and if its not proven. Might just be that I know the good lurcher people though :D
 
Alec Swan said:
I'm not too sure about that. Breed Societies and Clubs are just as culpable.

"i have no doubt that good breeders are doing everything to rectify problems that were created many moons ago" (Previously printed in red).

'I'm not too sure about that, either.'

i suppose that it depends on your opinion of a good breeder, for me if they are not doing this they dont fit my opinion of a good breeder


In the early and mid-70s, Labradors, Golden Retrievers and Alsations (as they were then) had serious hip problems. The breeding world was aware of this. Since that time, and whilst hips are now a matter of record, we now have spaniels with HD and just about every breeding gundog with a risk of elbow problems, amongst other life limiting complaints.

A simple question ; If the heritable problems have been receiving the attention of the Veterinary profession, and the Breed Societies and the Kennel Club, how come that over the last 30+ years, the situation has worsened?

When I was serious about working gundogs, it was fashionable to blame the show bench for the problems. I never quite understood that one, because the show bench, and the work bred dogs were virtually separate breeds, and it would be highly unusual for a mixing of the two types.

For all the fact that we now have a myriad of testing for an equal number of inheritable complaints, I suspect that the situation is worsening (certainly the perceived risk is), rather than improving, and I wonder why.

Alec.
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is it really getting worse or are we more aware of the problems due to testing?

i for one am not sure
 
Dexter said:
Most lurcher pups dont have a massive sale value. The ones that do sell well are from good working lines. The majority of the lurcher pups I know being bred are from good working stock, its definitely frowned upon and rarely done, in my limited experience, to breed from your lurcher without thought and if its not proven. Might just be that I know the good lurcher people though :D
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thats my experience too
 
Jools2345 said:
is it really getting worse or are we more aware of the problems due to testing?

i for one am not sure
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I'm willing to bet (not that there's any way of confirming this) that the problem is two fold:

a) yes, we are more aware because of testing and
b) more indiscriminate breeding from people who've jumped on the breeding bandwagon.
 
PucciNPoni said:
I'm willing to bet (not that there's any way of confirming this) that the problem is two fold:

a) yes, we are more aware because of testing and
b) more indiscriminate breeding from people who've jumped on the breeding bandwagon.
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I think this about sums it up. I don't actually think things are getting worse, in fact they are improving in my breed, but as is happening with so many things the internet means information is spread so much faster.
I think a lot of the comments we hear nowadays anti pedigree dogs stem back to the Pedigree Dogs Exposed programme on tv, which was exaggerated and inaccurate. How often have we heard that all bull dogs cannot breathe, all cavaliers have syringomyelia etc, generally spouted by people who have seen the programme but have very little knowledge of dogs. The programme did some good there is no doubt as it caused the KC to wake up and be a bit more pro active, but it also played into the hands of those breeding designer crosses as they could spout their "healthier cross" rubbish.

Jools, I see your point about not worrying what is behind a dog, but when I have a new dog I want to know there is a good chance it will live a long and healthy life, there is far more likelihood of that happening if I know its ancestors health. I am not anti rescue, or crosses or even mutts, it is just my own personal choice.
 
Jools2345 said:
why would that worry me? i only want the dog that stands in front of me i ave nointerest in breeding as there are far too many dogs full stop regardless of breed/type/pedigree/purebred or not, i am not the only person who does not consider what is behind the dog in front of them as being important
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If the dog that stands in front of me has known producers of epilepsy, skin allergies or hip or elbow problems, which won't become apparent until later life, then that would worry me, if I can look at a pedigree and see a dog implicated in the production of one of these conditions, I can say 'thanks, but no thanks' or I can advise a potential puppy purchaser, as I have done on here before, yes, that's what you should be looking for, or, no, you could spend your money much more wisely.

I would not say the problem of hips is getting worse in my own breed TBH, quite the opposite as more people have come on board with testing etc.
 
CaveCanem said:
If the dog that stands in front of me has known producers of epilepsy, skin allergies or hip or elbow problems, which won't become apparent until later life, then that would worry me, if I can look at a pedigree and see a dog implicated in the production of one of these conditions, I can say 'thanks, but no thanks' or I can advise a potential puppy purchaser, as I have done on here before, yes, that's what you should be looking for, or, no, you could spend your money much more wisely.

I would not say the problem of hips is getting worse in my own breed TBH, quite the opposite as more people have come on board with testing etc.
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and i have no problem with that and i can see its the right way for most people to go. i dont think i will ever buy a dog as a puppy again i feel i am far more likely to just pick up the odd cast off as they come my way-so the history of the dogs breeding is not relevant to me
 
MurphysMinder said:
I think this about sums it up. I don't actually think things are getting worse, in fact they are improving in my breed, but as is happening with so many things the internet means information is spread so much faster.
I think a lot of the comments we hear nowadays anti pedigree dogs stem back to the Pedigree Dogs Exposed programme on tv, which was exaggerated and inaccurate. How often have we heard that all bull dogs cannot breathe, all cavaliers have syringomyelia etc, generally spouted by people who have seen the programme but have very little knowledge of dogs. The programme did some good there is no doubt as it caused the KC to wake up and be a bit more pro active, but it also played into the hands of those breeding designer crosses as they could spout their "healthier cross" rubbish.
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You have to wonder too - that things are improving in GSD's in part because they're no longer a highly "fashionable" breed...the more popular the breed the more the numpties come out of the woodwork to make a few bucks on puppies?! Hence there tends to be higher proportion of breeders who are doing so with a bit of care and diligence to the health of the dog rather than lining their pockets.

I think that Pedigree Dogs Exposed was mostly a bit of sensational journalism, and it certainly did get a lot of attention/ratings. Yet even though I have been in the pet care industry for a while now, I was pretty naiive about some of the issues that go on behind some of the breeding. I don't believe everything I see, and certainly not everything I hear. But I also believe in the old saying "where there's smoke, there's fire".
 
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