Unbreakable

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Amys_Babies

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Sent my 4 year old to professional breaker 4 weeks back to be broke and schooled, the man is a good friend to me and i asked for a honest opinion on him when he was finished. He had been quite nappy before when doing work but for some reason he wont take to the idea of having someone one his back. He constantly bucks until he can get the rider of and he is trying to kick out at the rider as he falls.

After 4 weeks of constant work he still isnt getting anywhere with him. He could carry on and it could take a very long time to get him going but have been told he still will not be trustworthy so we have stopped the work as there is not point as he still wont be safe to ride.

He told me you do get a few like this who just wont give in and want to work.

Am very disappointed though i have had him two years and i dont want to part with him so he isnt going anywhere. But i really dont know what is best for him. I dont just want him to be stuck in a field for the rest of his life.
 
He had his teeth checked before he went so that wouldnt have been a problem. Ive had my vet check him over and he couldnt find anything wrong. The tack fitted fine too he just doesnt want to give in to having to work.
 
Has this horse been difficult to handle in the time you've had him?
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No for every day handling he is so gentle and laid back have never had a problem with him, can lunge him, lead him in traffic and he is great with the farrier. I have even been on him last year and walked him around school no problems. Turned him away and arrange for my friend who breaks for a living to have him and for some reason he isnt having none of it.
 
Sorry about your 4 year old......... I sent my 5 year old dales x mare away to be broken because I dont have the facilities here and really regret it.
Sent her away on the advice of friends and really wish I hadn't..... I had lightly backed her as a 4 year old only walking and thought it would be better for the pony if someone professional did it.
Anyway to cut a long story short she was broken badly...... terrified of her mouth because of them using a gag (bottom hole) and they had been riding her in a broken saddle.......
Got the pony home.rode her 4 times and was thrown sky high and really hurt myself....... Said pony is going to have a baby next year and the year after that I will hopefully try and do something with her.
I hope yours works out differently..
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Do you think it is something he could overcome then?

As ive been told that he could break him but it could take nearly a year and he may not still be trustworthy but he doesnt want to put me in a situation to get hurt either as he has experienced a horse like him before as the rider nearly broke his neck after he had him back from him.

I would love to ride him but constant bucking as kicking out as you fall and meaning it to, is that something someone could really make him overcome?
 
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As ive been told that he could break him but it could take nearly a year

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Sounds to me like you've got someone hoping to milk every penny out of you possible...
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He could be trying to but theres no way i would pay him to carry on the job when he hasnt got anywhere with him already after 4 weeks of money.

As for trying a female trainer that could be worth looking into thanks yeeharider. Only problem is would anyone have after he has already been worked with as i know some places wont have them if someone else has already touched them.
 
Bring him home........... give him a rest and get him into a routine with you.
I totally regret sending my mare to the place I did and I truly hope that leaving her off will help her. When I brought her home she was pushy and nervous........ something she never was before. She's been out in the field for 6 weeks and I can see the kind eye coming back...
Some horses take ages to break others take to it very easily.
Don't give in but don't get hurt......... let him take his time and get to know the person who looks after him properly......He is only young.
 
Give him 3 months totally roughed off and then send him somewhere else. That is what I would stipulate if you wanted me to have a crack.
There may not be anything at all wrong with the bloke thats been doing him, but everyone is different and has different ways of doing things.
 
is it not possible for you to be the one to ride him while under instruction. we had the problem that mine just simply didn't trust anyone else enough apart from me and one other person so we did it with instruction from a professional and she was brilliant.
 
What have you done with him on the ground? Does he lunge to voice aids, had tack on before you sent him away? ect.
Maybe you could turn him away for a bit and do all the ground work with him yourself. Could you possibly get a dummy 'rider' to get him used to something on his back. Also, you can teach him to stand still whenever it falls off.

It might not work but it could help. If he improves you could spend a few months doing that sort of thing with him.

If he is backed the right way after he starts again IMO there is no reason why he would always be dangerous. He might grow up a bit and find something he enjoys doing ie jumping, xc or maybe he will only like hacking. That isn't something you can really tell until the horse is backed and settles into a routine.
 
I don't know much about this but I think as everyone says bring him home and rough him off for the winter.
Next spring maybe get back teeth etc checked and then either do him yourself with help or maybe get someone like Richard Maxwell to try?
 
On the ground the lunges walk/trot and canter to voice command with tack on fine.

A dummy rider could be something worth trying, any ideas where to get one from?

Hes turned out and going to leave him be until spring time and let him just relax and get back use to being around me and not having to do any work. Then maybe may have some better luck with him next year.
 
Monty has a sort of how to make on his website but it's seem complicated. Here you go anyway-

Our Herman-dummy is about five feet tall and weighs about 40 pounds. His body size proportions are about the same as an adult of the same height.

He is wearing a man's pair of jeans but with shortened legs. We have learned that legs with an inseam of about 18 inches is about right and will allow for an elastic strap to be sewn at the bottom of each leg. The elastic strap is equipped with a snap at the bottom that will clip onto the stirrups. Make the elastic strap just long enough so that there is good tension when it is fixed into place. The two stirrups are strapped together under the chest of the horse with a strap and buckle. This prevents the stirrups from rising allowing the dummy to dislodge.

The skeleton of our dummy is comprised of three fiberglass buggy whips on each side, cut so that they reach to the bottom of the sewn pant legs then all the way to the top of the head of the dummy. One can gather these buggy whips at the neck so that they are bundled as they go into the head itself. One can use a short broom stick wired or taped to the buggy whips just below the neck. This broom stick should be about 20 inches and fixed into place so as to form the shoulders.

I suggest using a heavy canvas type work shirt for the upper body and recommend sewing it inside the jeans as well as sewing up the front. Once you have the jeans connected to the shirt and sewn at the bottom of the legs then one can begin to fill the jeans and the shirt with material of a fluffy nature. I suggest more weighty material at the bottom of the legs and mostly lightweight bubble wrap to stuff the shirt. This will create the lighter upper body thus assisting an upright position.

I use a child’s play ball to create the head of an appropriate size. I simply make a small hole only large enough for the buggy whips to enter the “head”. I push the buggy whips to the top of the play ball then use large amounts of duct tape to secure the “head” to the buggy whips. I utilize duct tape to create an appropriate neck, fixing it strongly to the shoulders and to the buggy whips securely. I generally put a scarf around the neck, a face mask on the ball and a light hard-hat on the head.

I have the sleeves sewn closed and utilize elastic straps with snaps that reach the eye ring of the halter. The elastic used to secure the dummy at the area of the waist should pass inward and be firmly attached to the buggy whips about 8 inches above the saddle (see this illustrated in Chapter 8 of From My Hands to Yours). I allow these elastics with a snap attached to emerge one from the front and one from the back. These will be your main source of attachment: one to the rear of the saddle and one to the front. I have a ring sewn into the saddle at the back and I use the hand-hold of my starting saddle for the front attachment.
 
Some so-called 'professionals' are one hit wonders! They back a horse using 'a method' - it works - so they continue to use that method. It works on - say - 9 out of 10 horses. The 1 in 10 that 'the method' doesn't suit are branded dangerous and unbreakable!!

We've had a few of these here - they weren't unbreakable at all - they'd just been screwed up. Either the approach was wrong for that horse (some horses have a MUCH stronger instinctive fear of 'the predator on the back' than others) or the process was rushed - or the 'professional' failed to notice a signal being given off by the horse that said: I don't like this, I'm scared, I don't understand!!

ANYONE can back an 'easy' horse - and I don't MIND that they make a living doing so. What makes me REALLY cross is when they brand a horse dangerous and unbreakable - just because they failed!!

There is an old Australian saying: "Never been a horse that couldn't be rode, never been a rider couldn't be throwed!"

I would NOT suggest trying to back this horse yourself - he will be harder than he would have been at the start because the experience he has had will have put up barriers! Nor would I suggest turning him away - he won't FORGET his experiences AT ALL!! He needs better experiences to replace those memories with!

The thing that tells me your professional has got it wrong is: "He told me you do get a few like this who just wont give in and want to work." That is cr*p - in more ways than one. You shouldn't be trying to get a horse to 'give in' - you should be teaching him that this new experience is harmless and won't hurt him. And that working is ok - no-one is going to hurt him and he gets lots of pats and fuss when he gets it right (and gentle correction and more explanation when he gets it wrong!)

We're in your area - why don't you PM me and arrange to come over and see some of our 'breakers' in action - and how we approach them. I'd be as sure as I CAN be - without meeting the horse - that we can back him. Or find the reason he is CURRENTLY unbackable. While you've had teeth, back, tack checked - they MAY still be the problem. (I've lost count of the horses who have come here having 'had everything checked' that DID have a serious problem in one of these areas!)
 
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He had his teeth checked before he went so that wouldnt have been a problem. Ive had my vet check him over and he couldnt find anything wrong. The tack fitted fine too he just doesnt want to give in to having to work.

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Have you had his back properly checked by a pro back person? Vets aren't good at specific things IMO! And I would probably try different tack which definately fits purely because I had a horse who disliked one saddle eventhough it was meant to fit but was fine in another. Worth a go! Is the horse coldbacked? When does he do it - just as soon as the rider gets on? Does he do it even after being lunged etc.?
 
I havent had his back checked by a pro back person so that may be worth trying.

Im going to leave him till about april time now before i decide to do anything else with him as i think it would do him a bit of good to get back into his old routine as i think he needs to settle a bit as he been a bit unsure about things after i sent him away.

If i send him off or get someone highly trained to come and help me then i think i will change his saddle now anyway.

What do you mean by coldbacked?

They had got him to the stage where you could get on him ok (though he did panic the once as the saddle slipped) and could walk him around for a little while and then his frame of mind would just switch as though he suddenly realised what was going on then he would go off on a bucking fit until the rider was off. The thing that bothered the man who was doing him was the fact he was kicking out as the rider as he was falling to and thats when he thought was best to give up.
 
If he was coldbacked he would be sensitive in the saddle/ girth area - dipping his back when saddle is put on or when the rider gets on, sometimes unhappy with girth being done up, plays up as soon as the rider gets on but usually they settle down if lunged first or once they are warmed up.

TBH he is probably just nervous and doesn't really understand why someone is trying to jump on his back.
 
No he isnt coldbacked. He acts perfectly fine when the saddle is put on him and girth done up. He has never been bothered about anyone getting on him either like last year i was on him walking around and he was fine but then i turned him away and know things have gone wrong.

He has only ever been use to me doing stuff with him so i still think he may have just gone into a panic with someone else doing the work with him.

He sometimes can act differently with other people than he does with me like he tries to take the pee with them a bit.

So it could be something to do with his attitude to other people that has made him confused and nervous about someone being on his back maybe?
 
I agree with turning him away as far as your saddle goes you maybe better waiting until you are ready to restart him next spring as he will have changed shape and your saddle may no longer fit
 
A horse kicking out as a rider comes off them is normal - in their mind there is 'something' around their back end - they are prey, and as such will react to something 'attacking' around their back end. Even the most mild mannered horses will kick out if they are startled. I certainly wouldn't brand a horse dangerous for that.

The thing that would concern me is that it sounds like this so called professional rider has been falling off a fair amount, if the horse is not responding well to the rider, you go back to basics, using a dummy, or have the rider lie over the horse, rather than work upright, so if the horse does freak out, the rider doesn't 'fall' off. It isn't surprising if the rider comes off every time the horse bucks that the horse will keep doing it.

I think what others have said is right - bring him home, let him have a few months off, and start again with someone reputable. A big yard that does this day in day out will have a selection of saddles to be used - your horse will change shape a considerable amount when he has been backed and develops muscle, so don't waste money on an expensive saddle at the moment - one that fits adequately enough not to cause harm is sufficient, and most professional yards will have some kicking around.
 
Thanks emma for your advice. Hes in a field with one my other horses and think it will be best for him to have some time just having fun and being himself. I will probably book him in for somewhere march/april time next year. Will have a good look around though as i dont want anyone else to just give up on him.

And yeah i think i will leave the saddle until after he has come back from someone and then have one specially fitted for him. Hopefully things will go alot better next time.
 
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We're in your area - why don't you PM me and arrange to come over and see some of our 'breakers' in action - and how we approach them. I'd be as sure as I CAN be - without meeting the horse - that we can back him. Or find the reason he is CURRENTLY unbackable.

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If I were you I'd take JG up on her kind offer. She certainly gives good, sound, down to earth advice.
 
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