Under developed topline

[Michen]

Boggle got seen by his new vet whilst I was out of the country and we haven’t been able to touch base since (think he’s on paternity leave actually). On the report he said fully sound and the only thing mentioned was “slightly underdeveloped topline over the thoracic epaxial muscles”

I have no idea what this means or what I need to do to correct this. Horse does a mixture of schooling and hacking, the hacking is seriously hardcore (steep Colorado hills) but it is hit and miss at the moment with the snow.

He has hock arthritis and was last jabbed in his right hock just over a year ago. Sound pre and post flexions. Unshod.

Any specific exercises etc? Current pics from tonight if helpful. He is very forward, long in the back and it‘s an ongoing effort to get him to utilize his back end.

 

[Auslander]

Before you jump into crisis mode, the vet has just made observations about a horse he has seen for the first time, rather than saying "this horse has a problem". If nothing has changed in his musculature, and hes sound, happy and enjoying his work - it's not a biggie.

To address the specific area commented upon, Id be focusing on getting him to engage his abs and lift his back - there are a fair few ground exercises you can do, and you can use raised poles when schooling. If you can sacrifice a little bit of the forwardness temporarily, he'll find it easier to lift and engage his core

 

[Michen]

Before you jump into crisis mode, the vet has just made observations about a horse he has seen for the first time, rather than saying "this horse has a problem". If nothing has changed in his musculature, and hes sound, happy and enjoying his work - it's not a biggie.

To address the specific area commented upon, Id be focusing on getting him to engage his abs and lift his back - there are a fair few ground exercises you can do, and you can use raised poles when schooling. If you can sacrifice a little bit of the forwardness temporarily, he'll find it easier to lift and engage his core

I’m not in crises mode at all, I’m delighted that my on paper very compromised horse has one small comment on a thorough check up by a new vet!

Just asking about specific exercises, I’d never heard of those muscles before ?

Thanks I need to get back into the raised poles, no potties at the barn but can’t be hard to find something suitable! Any other particular ground exercises for this?

 

[SEL]

Saddle fit ok? I'm guessing no obvious back pain or the vet would have said.

I'm also guessing he's the type who hacks with his head up rather than long and low. Can you encourage some stretching down and forward? I'm not sure how much schooling he's doing now but perhaps mix it up a bit more. Walking over logs while you're out, carrot stretches, in hand between pole grids.

Think he's looking awesome personally!!

 

[Auslander]

I’m not in crises mode at all, I’m delighted that my on paper very compromised horse has one small comment on a thorough check up by a new vet!

Just asking about specific exercises, I’d never heard of those muscles before ?

Thanks I need to get back into the raised poles, no potties at the barn but can’t be hard to find something suitable! Any other particular ground exercises for this?

Sorry! I didn't mean it to sound like that! I know you worry abut him, but my comment wasn't phrased very well.

I'm not a physio, so this is just what I do with any of mine who need a bit of help lifting their backs. I run my fingers along the mid section of the belly (or a hoofpick, if they ignore my fingers) til I see the back lift, then repeat a few times. I do carrot stretches between the front legs, and to the side, always watching the back to make sure they're lifting it. Tail pulls also work for me - stand behind, hold the tail and gently ease back til you see the back go up. From behind, running your knuckles firmly either side of the spine, down to the point of the buttock should also provoke a back/bum lift

 

[Michen]

Saddle fit ok? I'm guessing no obvious back pain or the vet would have said.

I'm also guessing he's the type who hacks with his head up rather than long and low. Can you encourage some stretching down and forward? I'm not sure how much schooling he's doing now but perhaps mix it up a bit more. Walking over logs while you're out, carrot stretches, in hand between pole grids.

Think he's looking awesome personally!!

It should be.. tbh I’ve never had it regularly checked. I think it was vaguely looked at when I was going through saddle drama with Bear, maybe 18 months ago. I just lose faith in saddle fitters tbh so always gone on physio report to see if there’s ever an indication of a problem. I have swapped the gullet when he’s gone from filled out to lean with winter hunting but that’s about it (shoot me now!).

He’s schooling more than I would like but when he’s hacking it’s definitely varied. At the moment the snows so deep I am unsure I should even hack on the trails around the barn as he’d literally be wading in it, it feels like a lot of work for him? Or potentially good for him, im not sure, so I’ve literally just been doing a fifteen minute loop. I know it’s hard work as he walks at a normal pace!

Any thoughts on deep snow hacking gratefully received actually! Yes, he’s a head up kind of hacker but I do make a conscious effort to have him in a reasonable frame as much as I can.

Thanks I’m really chuffed with how he is, but if I can do something specific to target those muscles then I’ll add it in!

 

[Michen]

Sorry! I didn't mean it to sound like that! I know you worry abut him, but my comment wasn't phrased very well.

I'm not a physio, so this is just what I do with any of mine who need a bit of help lifting their backs. I run my fingers along the mid section of the belly (or a hoofpick, if they ignore my fingers) til I see the back lift, then repeat a few times. I do carrot stretches between the front legs, and to the side, always watching the back to make sure they're lifting it. Tail pulls also work for me - stand behind, hold the tail and gently ease back til you see the back go up. From behind, running your knuckles firmly either side of the spine, down to the point of the buttock should also provoke a back/bum lift

Haha no you are spot on, usually I’d worry!

That’s super helpful thanks. I can definitely add those into his routine!

 

[Auslander]

It should be.. tbh I’ve never had it regularly checked. I’ve always gone on physio report to see if there’s ever an indication of a problem. I have swapped the gullet when he’s gone from filled out to lean with winter hunting but that’s about it (shoot me now!).

He’s schooling more than I would like but when he’s hacking it’s definitely varied. At the moment the snows so deep I am unsure I should even hack on the trails around the barn as he’d literally be wading in it, it feels like a lot of work for him? Or potentially good for him, im not sure, so I’ve literally just been doing a fifteen minute loop. I know it’s hard work as he walks at a normal pace!

Any thoughts on deep snow hacking gratefully received actually! Yes, he’s a head up kind of hacker but I do make a conscious effort to have him in a reasonable frame as much as I can.

Thanks I’m really chuffed with how he is, but if I can do something specific to target those muscles then I’ll add it in!

When I was working in Switzerland, we used to deliberately take the horses hacking in deep snow - they were all dressage horses/showjumpers, and the trainer was adamant that it was good for their development to work hard walking and trotting through snow - we only did it where we knew the ground underneath, and we kept it very very slow.

 

[Michen]

When I was working in Switzerland, we used to deliberately take the horses hacking in deep snow - they were all dressage horses/showjumpers, and the trainer was adamant that it was good for their development to work hard walking and trotting through snow - we only did it where we knew the ground underneath, and we kept it very very slow.

Oh that is interesting! I’ve only walked in the deep stuff, I can feel it’s hard work for him because he walks at a normal horse speed. Maybe I can do more than the 15 min loop then and try and keep the hacking in a few days a week. We get chunks of time where it’s ok (so had three days in a row recently, hacking in a t shirt nearly). But it snowed again so the roads are not ok to hack on which limits things from the barn, and I doubt they will be for a few weeks now.

 

[Auslander]

Haha no you are spot on, usually I’d worry!

That’s super helpful thanks. I can definitely add those into his routine!

Hopefully he's more amenable than Alf! Alf enjoys carrot stretches, and will happily run through the programme on his own when he knows I have carrots, and he's trying to seduce me into dishing them out. He does not like the mid section fingers, or the bum fingers, and will take a deep breath and actively resist lifting anything when I do them! I have to use gardening gloves with spiky plastic finger tips to get him to play ball!

 

[ycbm]

I think he looks the best he ever has (he's grand!) and you should carry on as you are. The vet doesn't know him, you should show him a timeline of photos from when you bought him!
.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I’ve started doing pole work on long reins under guidance of a physio once a week and the effect has been rapidly noticeable. Building up top line in particular. Lottie also does a lot of hard core hacking but adding this in has been helpful. If you are interested I can send links to the physio’s page where she posts pole exercises/videos. But I echo all the others - he’s looking great!

 

[HashRouge]

Google suggests to me that the thoracic epaxial muscles would be the muscles just behind his withers. In the photo, I feel like I can see a slight shadow or indentation on either side where his saddle sits. Now, obviously I'm just looking at a photo and this could be one of many things - i.e. a slight sweat mark if he's just had his saddle removed, or even just a trick of the light. But it could, possibly be a sign of slight muscle wastage or underdevelopment and may be what the vet was referring to. I stress, though, that I am only looking at photos, which can be misleading, and am hypothesising as to what the vet meant rather than saying "your horse has a problem".

 

[poiuytrewq]

I think he looks the best he ever has and you should carry on as you are. The vet doesn't know him, you should show him a timeline of photos from when you bought him!
.

He does look super smart Michen!
Very handsome.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

Have to say I think he is looking superb, would never have believed that he is the same horse as the one you originally bought.

 

[Sossigpoker]

The muscle behind the wither is underdeveloped,.that's why you see the dip.
This is often a combo of saddle fit and not lifting the back while working.
I'd definitely get your saddle adjusted.

 

[ycbm]

I find photos usually make a dip behind the wither look much worse. I've got a recent photo of mine looking really severe but in reality it's hardly there.
.

 

[Cortez]

I wouldn't worry overly, we've all seen the "before" pictures and he's a picture you can be proud of. Be a bit careful with deep snow hacks, it's extreme hard work akin to working in water / water treadmill. You also have no idea what's under the snow. I once fell into a deep ditch in a drift and floundered for a good 15 minutes before we got out, ending up underneath the horse at one point - snow was over our heads.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

The muscle the vet is talking about is often underdeveloped because of saddle fit, looking at him close up he does have a bit of a dip but it's not terrible I've seen alot worse.

Arabi had similar although his was worse years ago from a saddle that was too narrow I didn't know or realise at the time wasn't clued up on saddle fit, I ended up with a remedial saddle fit where they use a much wider saddle and a shim numnah to fill the wastage then over time the muscles come back and then you don't need the shims.

It worked for us it took a long time but totally worth it he looked like a different horse afterwards.

I would just keep an eye on it for now and just be aware incase it gets any worse.

 

[Bernster]

I find that the hardest bit to deal with when trying to develop the top line. I’ve found it can improve with saddle check/change, and long/low and getting them to lift and use the backend. Agree things like pole and general gymnastic work like that can improve it but in some horses that bit of muscle never fully develops (not the right word but hope you know what I mean). Might be those who tend not to use the back so well, or who are a bit upright or ‘upside down‘ in their way of going.

 

[Goldenstar]

So drags brain into action he’s talking the front part deep muscles that run long ways along the horse .
You can see this in the picture he’s under developed in the middle of his neck just in front of his shoulder ,you can also see it behind the shoulder .

These deep muscles , I find , are really hard to influence in the adult horse but it’s doing the thoracic lift by using your fingers in the girth area to make him raise his wither and lots of work with the neck long but not low with the head right out in front of vertical .
Pole work without letting him dump the neck down to far .
we have one who has some atrophy right here he was so fat when he came you could not see it he’s now slim and we are on it .
Its going to be interesting to see if we can change it in a big cob.

Having said all that the horse looks fantastic and I would not be worrying to much .
This sounds like an interesting vet with a very keen eye .

 

[J&S]

As ycmb says, photos can be deceiving, for instance, the very slight dip behind his withers looks more defined in the second photo than the first one. The exercises auslander has suggested are exactly what I was given for my mare when she was still working and did make a difference.
A friend of mine has been seeing Tom Beech and he has suggested railway sleepers to walk over to get the back stretching. Not always available I realise!

 

[scats]

For a horse who not long ago travelled across the world and has settled into a whole new way of life, climate, people… he’s an absolute credit to you. He looks insanely good.

I assume saddle fit is all good?
Your vet sounds very on the ball though, and I can see why you want to address what he has found. I think you might find this area develops a bit more when you can do more regular hacking/hill work without disruptions coz of the weather. I had a very long backed JA pony who had similar issues along the epaxial muscles (not just thoracic in her case), we never fully got it how we wanted but we did manage to build it up a bit with polework and lots of hacking.

 

[Birker2020]

Boggle got seen by his new vet whilst I was out of the country and we haven’t been able to touch base since (think he’s on paternity leave actually). On the report he said fully sound and the only thing mentioned was “slightly underdeveloped topline over the thoracic epaxial muscles”

I have no idea what this means or what I need to do to correct this. Horse does a mixture of schooling and hacking, the hacking is seriously hardcore (steep Colorado hills) but it is hit and miss at the moment with the snow.

He has hock arthritis and was last jabbed in his right hock just over a year ago. Sound pre and post flexions. Unshod.

Any specific exercises etc? Current pics from tonight if helpful. He is very forward, long in the back and it‘s an ongoing effort to get him to utilize his back end.

View attachment 106387View attachment 106388

I did a lot of groundwork using this and it really helped
FMBS supply physio's with machinery and pads.



https://fmbs.co.uk/product/pap-training-bands/#:~:text=The PAP Training Bands System,encouragement without force or restriction.

 

[HashRouge]

I find photos usually make a dip behind the wither look much worse. I've got a recent photo of mine looking really severe but in reality it's hardly there.
.

Yes, that's why I was quite cautious in my post. But we only have photos to go on and Michen did ask for opinions, so I thought it was probably worth mentioning.

 

[Sossigpoker]

So drags brain into action he’s talking the front part deep muscles that run long ways along the horse .
You can see this in the picture he’s under developed in the middle of his neck just in front of his shoulder ,you can also see it behind the shoulder .

These deep muscles , I find , are really hard to influence in the adult horse but it’s doing the thoracic lift by using your fingers in the girth area to make him raise his wither and lots of work with the neck long but not low with the head right out in front of vertical .
Pole work without letting him dump the neck down to far .
we have one who has some atrophy right here he was so fat when he came you could not see it he’s now slim and we are on it .
Its going to be interesting to see if we can change it in a big cob.

Having said all that the horse looks fantastic and I would not be worrying to much .
This sounds like an interesting vet with a very keen eye .

My horse didn't develop topline in this area until his hock and SI pain was treated. The muscle developed really fast once he was out of pain.
A dip behind the wither isn't normal and indicates a problem, whether it's biomechanic , a saddle problem or, most likely, both.

 

[MereChristmas]

Isn’t it wonderful that reading a thread on HHO explains something that’s been fidgeting at the back of your mind?
Thanks @Michen for asking and thanks for all the replies.
This has given me food for thought and something to work on when I have lessons.

 

[Goldenstar]

The development of this area comes with horses working up hill horses like my cob are built to pull they don’t have the ability to lift thoracic sling built into them like a modern warmblood has .
This combined with the fact that Blues way of going when he arrived was to go with his head twisted and his nose attached to his chest means that ability he would have to lift his wither has never developed .
He was very very heavy I think he was 860 kilos when he arrived he was certainly dangerously fat no horse can work well in that state .

Boggle is a much lighter athletic type of horse and lots of lateral work (including using turns about the forehand )with his nose out and pole work would be what I would do .
I never use anything with a strap that goes round the back on horses who have had any type of hock issue but the belly strap of a equiband is worth trying ridden I would not lunge in it except to accustom the horse too it .
Boggles history suggests to me that lunging is not something I would use as regular work .
M, when you sit on him and look down is his neck visibly thinner in front of the shoulder in the middle of his neck and if it is is it an even amount of dip in on both sides .

 

[SEL]

Oh that is interesting! I’ve only walked in the deep stuff, I can feel it’s hard work for him because he walks at a normal horse speed. Maybe I can do more than the 15 min loop then and try and keep the hacking in a few days a week. We get chunks of time where it’s ok (so had three days in a row recently, hacking in a t shirt nearly). But it snowed again so the roads are not ok to hack on which limits things from the barn, and I doubt they will be for a few weeks now.

I think 15 minutes is sufficient in deep snow. I've spoken to some experienced water treadmill operators and they often find ankle deep is more than enough resistance for most horses. Its one of the reasons horses worked in sand schools can end up with leg problems if their owners don't recognise the surface is too deep - its a LOT of hard work. I was watching mine come through my deep mud gateway before the world turned icy here and they really have to pick up their back legs and use their stifle joint. Great for a bit of resistance training but too much is tiring and that's when they stop using their muscles properly.

Saddle was my first thought with what the vet said. Just check that the shape at the front is right for him and not impeding that muscle development. Can he do a wither lift? Try it with and without the saddle to check his range of movement with the saddle on. I get my nails in just behind where the girth sits - my KS pony is fine without the saddle but tells you off if you ask her to do it with the saddle girthed up (but she has good reason to!)

This is a nice thread btw - he is looking fabulous and that's a pretty minor comment from a vet with a good eye. But minor issues can turn into major issues and I wish I had vets on board who would point out the little things.

 

[Goldenstar]

Interestingly my horse who was built very uphill did not develop much muscle associated with thoracic lift until he was well on in his training neither did he develop the very top of the neck muscles we associate with stretching work in early training .
This was because he could not stretch until he was well in his training because he was not not built to do so easily and he did not develop muscle associated with thoracic sling because his wither was naturally so much higher that his top of his bum he did not need load of muscle strength to keep his wither up.
He was an interesting horse that one he taught me a lot .