Underweight 24yo with cushings- feed help please!

[wormhugs]

Hi all,
This is also in Stable yard, where I've had one helpful reply, but thought I might get more if I post in New Lounge too.

I'm needing a bit of help please! My 24 yo cob has recently been diagnosed with cushings after developing laminitis last autumn.
He is on medication for the cushings which has made him quite picky when it comes to eating- apparently this medication is known for having appetite suppressing qualities.
He is turned out in a grazing muzzle and gets soaked hay when he comes in at night.
He is currently fed Safe and Sound (Dodson and Horrell I think!) and Badminton Complete fibre nuggets and a vitamin supplement.
He has been struggling to maintain his weight and I added Baileys Outshine as a high oil content feed and this put him off his feeds entirely. He has lost more weight this last week and I was hoping that some of you might have experience of feeding underweight laminitic/cushings horses. Would welcome any advice please!
Many thanks!

 

[AmyMay]

He has been struggling to maintain his weight

Take his grazing muzzle off

 

[Old Bat]

You could try Speedibeet perhaps

 

[wormhugs]

No! He has not recovered from the laminitis properly yet, and is pretty sound but when the yard left it off by mistake for a couple of days the laminitis flared right back up again. One of the reasons he lost weight was fretting while in on box rest. Turnout with a grazing muzzle is a compromise to keep him as happy as I can while protecting him from the grass.

 

[wormhugs]

You could try Speedibeet perhaps

Thanks Old Bat. I have tried giving him this before in the pre-laminitis days and he totally turned his nose up at it- sugarbeet is just not tasty without the molasses in his opinion!

 

[SmartieBean09]

What quantities of feed are you giving him?

You could add Speedi-Beet.

Agree about taking his muzzle off though. He is old and may have difficulty getting grass through the muzzle if his teeth reflect his age. If you are concerned that he may put weight on too quickly then you could take the muzzle off for a good few hours and then replace.

Apple Cider Vinegar is good for increasing the appetite as is Fenugreek.

 

[learningcurve]

Can you section off part of his field and feed more hay, my cushings pony is fed mainly hay, luckily I don't need to soak it, it is only grass that is a problem.

Could try adding micronized linseed and pink powder to his feed.

 

[emmaln]

Agree with the apple cider vinegar and fenugreek!

Have a look at Allen and page veteran vitality it has worked wonders for my 19 yr old tb who started to drop weight atvtge beginning of the season, I'm now having to reduce her feed as she's done so well on it! You soak it for 3 mins so great for oldies as it's easy and very palatable! I would ring Allen and page though as I'm not sure how suitable it would be for a horse with cushings! They also do something called fast fibre which could be worth looking into!

 

[Fransurrey]

I've just switched my (suspected) pre-cushingoid pony to Allen and Page Veteran Vitality. It's alfalfa free (which many horses are intolerant to, especially cushingoid ones), molasses free and contains linseed and active yeast, plus other pre/probiotics. I know my two love linseed anyway, but they well and truly gobble this stuff up!

 

[wormhugs]

Can you section off part of his field and feed more hay, my cushings pony is fed mainly hay, luckily I don't need to soak it, it is only grass that is a problem.

Could try adding micronized linseed and pink powder to his feed.

Thanks for this. Unfortunately sectioning off the field is not an option- the yard is on heavy clay and the ground is so wet just now it would turn into a bog. He is going to start coming in a little earlier to give him more time to eat as much hay as possible though.

 

[wormhugs]

I've just switched my (suspected) pre-cushingoid pony to Allen and Page Veteran Vitality. It's alfalfa free (which many horses are intolerant to, especially cushingoid ones), molasses free and contains linseed and active yeast, plus other pre/probiotics. I know my two love linseed anyway, but they well and truly gobble this stuff up!

Thanks both who suggested this, I'll go and have a chat with Allen and Page.

 

[K27]

I had a mare who had Cushings and as she was getting older she was tending to drop weight (she had a mild bout of Laminitis too due to the Cushings).

Also are her teeth ok- no hooks on them or anything? as my mare used to have the vet out twice a year to remove the hooks with a power tool- once they were taken off she could eat better and put on more weight.

My advice would be to speak to your Vet and also phone some of the feed companies.

It's been a harsh winter and it may just be that she needs some extra calories to put on some weight and keep warm- rugging will help too.

The feeds that worked for my old mare were: Spillers Slow Release cubes - high fibre and oil, lots of calories and low starch and Conditioning Fibre chaff, Pink Powder ( or you could use maybe an Alfa Light or Oil), and plenty of quality hay, and i used to add Linseed Oil to the feed as well.

Mint added to the feed is good for fussy feeders as well.

Hope she picks up soon- best of luck.

 

[foraday]

Firstly what medicine is your vet prescribing? Metformin & modrenal or pergolide and at what dose?

What does your vet want to do? Double check with him/her.

As the owner of a cushings pony I made the decision to forget the grass after spending 7 months fighting laminitis.

We dug up a patch of grass and then put wood chip down. He is allowed adlib haylage (has ROA chronic - another cushings related problem - so hay even soaked causes problems) Plenty of high fibre nuts & fibergy. My theory anything GREEN is bad and not allowed.

We have been 8 months free of lami. We are also now part of a vet study as all the other cushings neddies sadly have had lots of bouts of lami.

Finding your horses trigger is the key but would think its the grass.

 

[wormhugs]

Thanks for all your replies.
His teeth are in good condition and the vet recommended getting advice from feed companies. Unfortunately, having just spoken to Allen and Page, Veteran Vitality would not be recommended, its too high calorie for a laminitic. Their Fast Fibre sounds like it might do the job, but am off to try the other feed companies!

 

[The_snoopster]

My shettie was diagnosed with cushings about 15 months ago at the relative young age of 13, he went straight on to pergolide and went from a pony that would eat anything to the most fussiest eater I have known. He was never overweight pre cushings, so going very fussy with feed he did lose weight. It also does not help that cushings sufferers have a lack of mucsle so the belly drops and topline goes, I really struggled to find an happy medium that would put weight on but also not cause him to get lami.

Mine also went straight off any form of suger beet and all chaffs, he would only pick at mixes or nuts. If I fed him adlib hay he would eat that but then refuse a bucket which had the pergolide in it, as he either could taste the meds or was just satisfied with the hay as was not hungry enough to bother with the bucket. He does have turnout 24/7 with access to a stable, but his paddock is now a arena size paddock fenced off from the main field.

What I did this winter was only put enough hay out to last him around 20 hours, so he was peckish enough for the small bucket with the meds in. He still as a a small amount of grass to pick at whilst waiting for the next hay net to arrive, I also found if I sprinkle a small amount of dried spearmint over his dinner this enticed him to eat the bucket. In the summer I will ahve to put the other pony in the paddock now and again to strip the grass a bit, so he does not get to much.

I also rang several feed companies explained he had gone picky and the reasons why, I did not want to buy a whole bag of feed and him them to refuse it and it go to waste, the companies sent me small samples untill I found one that he would eat with the pergolide in. This turned out to be a great way to experiment with feeds without having to buy whole bags.
Really hope you find something that will help gain your cobs weight in a safe way without causing lami, good luck.

 

[wormhugs]

Thanks The_Snoopster. Dengie and Allen and Page are posting out bags of suitable feeds to try. Thanks for your words of encouragement too, he used to eat pretty much anything put infront of him, to have a picky horse is a whole new experience, and so frustrating when he leaves it and doesnt eat all of the medication which will help him. Am feeling quite hopeful that the Dengie feeds might temp him- they have added herbs which sound tasty

 

[Rana]

Hi H, sorry to hear he's not doing too well

Some things I have tried:

Spillers High Fibre Horse and Pony Cubes
Unmolassed sugar beet (the white shreds, not Speedibeet)

Both worked for my old girl who also had Cushings (and no teeth!)

Allen and Page Fast Fibre is wonderful, R did really well on that a couple of years ago (she got bored with it)

I now feed Winergy Equilibrium Conditioning, which is high fibre, high energy, high oil, but low starch. I only researched it on the basis of weight gain without fizz, not sure how it would stack up for laminitis, but worth a look at?? I added Soya Oil last year, which R seemed to eat ok, and it's cheap as chips for a big bottle so you won't waste too much money if he won't eat it.

How's he doing with hay? Is he still eating plenty? I'd stuff as much hay into him as he can possibly manage. If he's not eating much, go with the hay replacement type feeds - Hi Fi Lite is a good one for laminitics. If he's getting fussy, put his medication in a small feed when he first comes in (when he's hungriest!), then give him hay/hay replacer/rest of feed later on once he's finished the meds.

FB me if you need any help - underweight fussy bu**ers are my speciality!

K x

 

[Spotsrock]

Disclaimer: I know very little about laminitis so this may conflict with his needs for that, also Lottie has Pymetra which is terminal in a very short space of time and incurable, but has been living with it happily for over a year now, vet confirms no pain and no idea how she is i) alive and ii) pain free so what suits her may not suit your horse.

Lottie has cushings, she is not medicated but toward the end of winter tends to go off her food and loose weight.

I haven't bothered with old horse mixes etc, I did last year and she was a walking skeleton, She has a big net of hay with 1 slice of haylege at night and same when she's in during the day.

I feed her very small amount (about half scoop) chaff as it's this she gets bored of, 1 scoop conditioning cubes, as I buy them as a staple for all the girls, 1 full scoop sugar beet and half scoop weight gain. She then has a joint supplement and cod liver oil added. While her weight is good she has this at night and half scoop chaff with half scoop sugar beet for brekkie, when her weight drops she has full feed morning and night. The sugar beet is a new addition this year she will eat anything if I throw some sugar beet at it, even bute, normally a major no-no in feed, and she is FAT!! I have to keep an eye as her joints can't take loads of weight but there is a definate roundness to her (OH would say she's not fat she's curvy, but only to make me feel better!)

I don't use speedi-beet I use regular soak it for 24 hrs beet, 1 £6 bag lasts my 3 over a month and has made such a huge difference.

The other thing that helps is keeping her busy, when she was thin I borrowed my friends 4 year old and Lottie pretended to be 12.2 and gave pony rides, she loves kids and it broke the boredom without being too much work for her. Now she is in better shape she does 1 or 2 short hacks of about half hour each weekend with me or Alex and 30 mins in the school 1 evening. She's more hungry after this.

 

[bensababy]

I have a very fussy Cushings sufferer - i switched him to Simple System feeds, they are very helpful and their feed made a huge change in my boys diet.

 

[tangotime]

Hi wormhugs,

I have a 33 yo pony with Cushings D. who has last summer started to struggle to keep condition and with him the situation is complecated that his teeth are pretty much worn so he struggles to eat a significant amount of hay. So he is now on a mix of unmolassed sugar beet, alfa A, conditioning cubes and a dash of soya oil and has greatly improved. He was originally on high fibre cubes and I was reluctant to change him to a higher energy feed because of the laminitis worry but in the end I had no choice as he was just losing too much weight. Worked well in his case and touch wood no laminitis attack. Good luck

 

[thatsmygirl]

As I'm sure you know cushings and laminitis comes hand in hand so I would not remove the muzzle.
Feeds I would feed a cushings pony to put on weight safely which will need to be high oil and low sugar and starch are alfa a oil, hi fi unmolassed, topspec comprehensive balancer,speedi beet, micro linseed which is very very good for putting on weight safely for a cushings pony and most love the taste. Fast fibre is a good feed to bulk out but won't do alot for weight.
Stay away from cereal ( mixes )
I'm sure you have worming etc all up to date but might be worth doing a worm count just to rule out any problems your unaware off.

 

[wormhugs]

Thanks all for your helpful replies.
The feed companies have all reinforced the high fibre, high oil message as a safe way to help him gain weight. It is complicated by the fact that he is quite fussy when it comes to oil but I have 3 feed companies sending me samples of their recommended products which I am going to prepare and present before him in a taste test They all sound like they could do the job and now it will be down to his tastebuds to decide which I go for.
I appreciate all your replies and helpful reminders about teeth and worm counts. He has poo samples wormcounted regularly and his teeth are in really good nick. After a really long slog with this bout of laminitis, I feel that we are on the road to recovery and now its just a case of really finding a tasty feed which will help him gain weight.
Best wishes to all you others with laminitics/cushings horses!
Hannah

 

[Rosehip]

Hi Wormhugs, just wanted to add my penny worth to the mix!
I had an old Welsh B lad who finally shuffled off this mortal toil aged 36, who suffered with cushings from about 30 (well thats when he started showing signs anyway!) and had 2 bouts of nasty Lami during the first 9 months of the cushings starting.
Sunny was a bit different to your boy as he loved being in his box, and as he was a 13.2 (and shrinking, bless him!) in an 18x18 box we let him stay in as much as he wanted - all the time! - so we could cut grass out of the equation completely. He also lost or wore away most of his teeth, so sucked, rather than ate his soaked hay. Strangely he coped much better with steamed hay than soaked!
He was fed the following morning and night:
3/4 stubbs scoop Old Faithful
1 tub (a ben and jerry's ice cream size) Speedi-beet soaked in hot water then mixed with the old faithful
1/2scoop HiFi Lite
a good glug of veg oil (soya better for weight but it gave him the squits!)
scoop of equivite orig vit and mins
He had that mixed up in a big trug and just munched his way through that - and later sucked it up through a straw as we made it nice and sloppy for his poor old teeth.
At mid day if he had finished his bucket I'd give him another scoop of hifi lite wetted with speedi-beet. When he was pts with a strangulated gut the vet and the chaps who came to take his body couldnt believe how well he looked, and I had to show them his passport to prove his age!

Obviously your boy is different as he doesnt like speedibeet and likes to go out, but perhaps some of the abouve will help you!

One bit of advice, feed whatever you give him warm, Sunny would only pick at food if it was cold, and my two gannet mares turn their nose up at everything if it isnt at least tepid....perhaps I spoil them!?!

 

[PeterNatt]

One piece of advice regarding worming is please remember that emerging small encysted red worms can cause laminitis. They are not detected in worm counts only a blood test. One of mine had laminitis as a result of them.
Both of mine are on Pergolide and I feed them Bran, Hi-Fi Lite, Low Cal, Formula4Feet, Linseed and Cod liver oil.

 

[Partoow]

hi wormhugs
I happen recently to have done a huge amount of research in this area as i have a PRE (Spanish) !8yr old with IR, this has a similar problems to Cushings in that the laminitis in these horses is due to Insulin resistance.
This means that due to the tumour that is developing in the puturity your horse does not control its endocrine sysyem effectively thus the lami even though hes thin.
Its the sugars that are the problem and the body being flooded with insulin and not metabolising the sugars and still producing insulin which itsself damages the lamanae.
I supect your drugs are pergolide?
You need to keep the protein levels up, feed a good feed balancer, like Top Spec light and alfa a, omega oils are good and the Global Herbs Black salt. The Badminton Fibre nuts are very palatable and are good for lamanitics with these problems.Speedi beet is the only sugar beet you should use as the other long soak have molasses put back in the nut.
Hay should be soaked for 12 hours to leach out sugars and at the level of 1.5% of body weight.Try and make sure they dont go without hay during the night as in the morninginsulin levels can be up to 700x's the levels that are required for safety!!
i am also importing a product called HEIRO from America which is developed for this insulin resistance to enable horses to go back out to grass and manage the sugar/insulin levels.Its a natural herbal based product
In the meantime magnesium oxide and cinimmon are very good as well as the salt i mensioned earlier.
your aim is to keep the sugar levels level , no peaks and troughs, hence trying to keep him with plenty of hay at night, no ;long periods without fibre

 

[louised1henry]

second vote for simple system feeds.they are very helpful. and have feed advisor's that can come out to you. i had a 25 year old with lami and cushings, she had very poor teeth so we switched to this for all these reasons and it is fab. and i think quite economical.you just have to be organised and order it as soon as you start getting low as there delivery time is normally 2/3 days.

 

[Puppy]

QR - I have a 24 year old cushings horse, who is not a good doer. I limit her grass intake, and provide her with ab lib haylage instead. It's expensive, but necessary. She also has Topsepc senior balancer - which I find is crucial for maintaining her condition - fed with Dengie hi-fi. At this time of year when its cold she also has some high fibre cubes.