Undiagnosed hoof lameness - any advice?

Hollywood78

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Hi, looking for any words of advice, support and\or similar experiences to attempt to get to the bottom of this please!
My 10 year old TB ex racehorse had a sudden onset lameness in his right fore 5 weeks ago. I've had him for 5 years, got him straight off the track, he was very lightly raced only running 12 times over 2 years but didn't make the grade. He has the stereotypical flat soles, low heels for a TB, also his right forefoot is larger, more splayed than the left. He is prone to abscesses and pulling shoes, he wears over reach boots when ridden and turned out & is only occasionally hacked out. My farrier is one of the best in the area and has made massive improvements to my boys feet through shoeing him correctly however he's obviously limited by the actual hoof conformation itself.
So 5 weeks ago I brought him in noticing he'd managed to rip of one of his overreach boots, there was no damage to his heel or leg and he walked in from field fine, he was stabled overnight as normal however by following morning he was noticeably lame in walk and hopping lame in trot. There was no heat or swelling to his foreleg, no digital pulse and just heat in the hoof, his feet were cleaned & picked out when he came in from field, there was no obvious signs of anything having penetrated the foot. As luck would have it both my vet and farrier were due that week so he was seen by both and although he had no adverse reaction to hoof testers both agreed it was likely an abscess brewing so the shoe was removed and it was poulticed for 5 days at which point my farrier came back out and was able to put shoe on, no abscess had burst but there was a lot of bruising to the heel which was consistent with the pulled off over reach boot so we figured he'd stood hard on himself and the lameness was a result of deep bruising, given that he stood to be shod it was clear there was definitely no abscess. He was then given a 10 day course of bute and we continued with box rest although there was no improvement in his lameness even while on the bute.
At 3 weeks down the line my boy was just as lame as on day 1 - to give an indication the vet rated him 4/10 in walk although more pronounced on the turn but increasing to 8/10 in trot, he can only trot a few steps.
I took him in for lameness investigation and upon nerve blocking the foot (palmar digital block) there was a 90% improvement in lameness. Radiographs were taken with nothing obvious re fractures, bone chips etc. So my vet referred us to Weipers for MRI.
The MRI was done during the week with the consultant vet expecting to see obvious damage to the deep digital flexor tendon, collateral ligament, coffin joint, navicular etc, he said due to the degree of lameness he would likely see the damage himself although images are also sent to the radiologist for full report. MRI was done under general anaesthesia with both feet being done as a comparison and a total of 800 images were done. The consultant vet was surprised that he was unable to find a cause from his examination of the images so they are now with the radiologist awaiting his report. Next they done yet another lameness examination including drawing fluid from the joint but no success in finding a cause.
I've got my boy home waiting MRI results and I'm taking him back to hospital on Tuesday by which time they will have the results and both vet and farrier will further examine him alongside MRI, xrays and physical examination, hopefully they can come up with a plan.
I'm at the end of my tether worrying about the outcome, although I think I'm now more worried about there being nothing on the MRI to explain the lameness as where do we go from there? Any help, advice, words of encouragement etc would be much appreciated and if anyone can come up with any clues as to what's causing this I'll gladly pass it on to vet/farrier!!
 
I would certainly wait until the radiologist has observed the MRIs
and I would educate yourself as much as you can about barefoot in the mean time. Even if a soft tissue cause is not identified for the lameness the fact that it 90% blocked to palmar hoof, and your description of his feet sounds like he would really benefit from it if you were up for it.
 
I'll certainly await radiologist report, like I say it will be back before I take him back into vet school & obviously I'm hoping for a positive outcome, something that can be treated with rest, corrective shoeing etc.
I'd be interested to see how going barefoot could help, at present when he has a front shoe off he even struggles to stand on the rubber matting in his stable without being footy & that's always been the case since I've had him. My other horse is 24 year old and is barefoot however he has good hoof conformation and nice strong feet. It was my farrier who suggested going barefoot with the older horse so it's certainly not something he's against but his opinion is this horse would not cope barefoot.
Once I have full results and know whether it's soft tissue or otherwise I'll speak with vets and farrier with a rehabilitation plan and I'll definitely look into the barefoot option if they feel it would be beneficial, thanks for your response ��
 
I would certainly wait until the radiologist has observed the MRIs
and I would educate yourself as much as you can about barefoot in the mean time. Even if a soft tissue cause is not identified for the lameness the fact that it 90% blocked to palmar hoof, and your description of his feet sounds like he would really benefit from it if you were up for it.

This, I don't agree that tb's have to have flat feet and the associated issues that goes with them, I had a tb arrive here straight out of training with dreadful feet, they were known to be bad when he was racing and he was on a "special supplement" of some sort to supposedly help, with advice from this forum I got them much improved so by the time he was back in work they were good enough to cope without shoes, he has been here just over 4 years now and is in full work unshod with fantastic feet, plenty of heel to support his tendons, that were injured while racing, he self trims most of the time and my farrier describes them as "perfect", they were far from perfect 4 years ago in fact I thought they may be more of an issue to recover than the serious tendon injury he had.

He has never had an abscess in the time with me, he has had plenty of other minor cuts and bumps but his feet are great and that is without any real fuss, just grass in the summer, haylage and a low sugar/ starch feed when in during the winter plus plenty of exercise on different surfaces.
 
I wasn't suggesting that every TB will have bad feet and whilst I'm in agreement that the barefoot option has it's place I don't agree that it's suitable for all horses or a cure all. Good farriery has improved my boy's feet beyond recognition however there's only so much can be done to alter the natural shape and conformation of a hoof and unfortunately his fall into the category of the stereotypical bad TB feet. Anyway I did not want to get into a debate over to barefoot or not, it's something that can be discussed in the future but at present my problem is diagnosing the cause of the lameness, several vets have seen him and at no point has it been suggested that farrier has been the issue. I was hoping for some positive support or any similar stories with any results.
 
It's ok hollywood most of us don't think it is a cure all either :), no evangelicalism here and certainly intended to be helpful 'positive support' as you put it rather than critical. Certainly if you decided to do it for this horse I think you would need to be totally committed (and boot a lot to start) and/or consider him going to rockley. I also suspect it won't be something your farrier or vet would suggest by the sounds of him but depending on their take on things they might talk it through with you if you suggest it. - It has become apparent that many vets will not suggest it because of owner commitment/owner might think it is a bit left field/trying to fix the horse more quickly and within insurance time frames etc but if you mention it to them they will talk pros and cons and often aren't dead against it.

Arguably and awful lot can change about the natural shape and conformation of a hoof, more so out of shoes when they get the chance to change themselves, what you can change on the outside will always be more limited.. My own lad's feet were bull nosed and under run and flat as a pancake (and he is a native) they are now none of these things although granted not as concave as one would like. For info the farrier also got his feet looking much much better in a couple of shoeing cycles but they weren't anymore functional as the horse was still lame even after cortisone injections. I might see if I can find you AlexHydes pictures on here for some really impressive changes with hers too.

Essentially just saying it is worth you having a think about it, the more info you have on various options the more you feel able to make a decision for him and it is worth saying that most things are reversible, shoes can go on and come off fairly easily.

Unfortunately I don't think anyone on here will be able to say much about not having a diagnosis as yet post MRI. I didn't have an MRI so can't say if it would have diagnosed or not though have suspicions as to what was going on but have a very positive story to share as do many on here. Though although I frequent hoof threads a lot I am not aware of any with totally inconclusive MRIs
 
The whole point about going BF is that it can and does change the conformation more than any other process can. Any horse can have flat feet and they can always be improved. Yes external factors may mean you are unable to take that horse BF but it doesn't change the fact that feet can cure themselves rather amazingly given half a chance.

You should look at AlexHyde's thread on here about her horse's feet and see how they improved.

Feet are amazing.
 
So I have found the 7 week pics, the 7 months pics and AlexHydes first post on this. This mare has cushings so will likely always have compromised feet, her heels are never going to be great, but these are the sort of changes a 23yo with cushings can make. And more importantly she is now sound and back in work and meaning that Alex has 3 horses to work which I'm not sure was the plan as doodle was going to slowing down/retiring. It does illustrate that for most horses their ability to improve their feet if given the opportunity should probably not be dismissed.

original thread
https://forums-secure.horseandhound.co.uk/showthread.php?717194-WWYD-recurring-lameness

7 weeks
https://forums-secure.horseandhound.co.uk/showthread.php?724611-More-hoof-pictures!

7 months
https://forums-secure.horseandhound.co.uk/showthread.php?734020-Doodle-s-Progress-7-months-in!

and as I am sure AH won't mind, these are of the lame hoof
before
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in the middle
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after
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Rest and corrective shoeing are the total opposite of what your horse needs. He needs movement and no shoes. Please do not dismiss barefoot out of hand. It will be what saves your boy. Listen to what the good people above are telling you. They're not telling you to go barefoot on a whim - they're telling you because it's right. Yes, it flies in the face of what most vets and farriers and well meaning friends tell you and yes it goes against the grain of everything you will have thought to this point but a well managed barefoot rehab will give you your sound horse back. Box rest, poor feeding regimes and corrective shoeing will see him permanently lame.
 
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I can assure you none of my horses suffer from a "poor feeding regime" as you suggest!!
Neither am I dismissing barefoot advice, if you check above I have a barefoot horse, a 24 year old with cushings, who is sound and in full work still competing, everyone remarks on how well he looks and cannot believe his age.
I guess I will wait for MRI results and take the advice of the numerous experts who are dealing with my horse and know his history.
FYI I have yet to hear of a barefoot horse grow more sole - if anyone can provide x-rays showing this I'd be very interested in seeing them, yes barefoot can help many horses and I am not against it but I don't think sudden onset lameness in one leg has been caused by my highly experienced farrier. Also should it turn out to be a torn DDFT the last thing my horse needs right now is exercise.
I'll update thread with MRI results for anyone who is interested.
Again I'm not dismissing anyone's opinion but I feel some people have approached me rather aggressively suggesting my horses are not looked after which is completely inappropriate.
 
My point was that the stereotypical tb feet do not have to be flat, it is commonly expected that they cannot be different due to conformation hence the stereotypical definition, the one here had feet similar to the ones above with the added problem of non existent frogs that had crumbled away to nothing, I thought they were part of him being tb but with support from posters on here we turned then around, I had no intention of him being barefoot while in work, although I do tend to work mine unshod, it just seemed the right thing to do at the time and the difference it has made is unbelievable.
I am certainly no barefoot expert and am happy to shoe as and when they need them, I was simply pointing out that even a tb with terrible feet can benefit from time out of shoes and for long term soundness it may be the best option although it is not always the easiest option.
 
Your last response is ridiculous. I've not even come close to suggesting that you don't look after your horse. I don't know your feed regime, so how could I possibly comment. I was talking generically. You really have got your facts wrong. Go your own way though and see you back here on a few months.
 
I can't help with possibles, but I can completely sympathise, having had a horse that had to have a MRI, and no true diagnosis.

At the moment you can do no more, but at least you have a positive block to the back of the foot.

Hope you get an answer on Tuesday, do give us an update.
 
Everything is relative, an excellent feeding regime for some horses can be pretty bad for others.

Also please don't think we all sit here typing long replies and searching for old threads out for you just to get some sort of kick to criticise you believe me it is far too much effort to be that, we honestly are just trying to help, show you what others have been through and done and I am sorry that you don't see it that way and snippy responses do make at least me feel why I bothered trying to help with what I know and have learned over the last 4/5 years.

Do you mean sole thickness? I don't have xrays just the difference of one that moves to thumb pressure to the vet swearing while trying to get to an abscess. She was surprised at it's thickness given that it was still fairly flexible with hoof testers though, but equally knowing what he does it makes sense he has some decent protection, he'd be pretty lame if he'd kept his old ones.

And yes, if you are interested we did have a sudden onset lameness that was at least not helped by the farrier in the preceding months, he did a better job later and now trims him- had the same farrier shoeing him for about 5-6 years prior to that with no issues. I am not sure why it really went from nothing to lame but he did. There was only a slight inkling in the October - some loss of the quality of his medium trot and a couple of off strides on a surface but certainly deemed sound to 3-4/10 lame. Nothing to see on xrays other than the flat pedal bones but these were the same on both fronts, and he was only lame on one so not really telling the story.

What might be helpful for you to do before Tuesday is to take some slow mo video of him walking straight towards you and from the side. It is my opinion that showed us as much as the rest of the diagnostics because the lame hoof was landing badly laterally, now whether that caused the lameness or was a result of it would be up for debate but recent chats with my farrier are that we suspect it did contribute as he has always been inclined towards that and possibly caused himself some collateral ligament damage doing so.
 
Your last response is ridiculous. I've not even come close to suggesting that you don't look after your horse. I don't know your feed regime, so how could I possibly comment. I was talking generically. You really have got your facts wrong. Go your own way though and see you back here on a few months.

PoppyAnderson please re read your original reply in which you suggest that box rest, corrective shoeing and a poor feed regime will leave me with a permanently lame horse. That is a personal attack on my horsecare and is completely inappropriate. Like you say, you don't know me so you should not be commenting on how my horse is cared for, I simply came on here in the hope of finding some like minded people however as usual in the horsey world it would seem that someone always has to take it too far. Comments like the above are not helpful.
 
Thanks I'll take all that on board although how my feeding regime has been called into question I have no idea as that was nothing to do with my original post!
Certainly I think we're likely to be looking at soft tissue damage but the MRI results will tell.
I'm sorry you feel my responses are snippy but I never came on here asking about barefoot experiences and some people (not yourself) have chosen to respond rather aggressively to me suggesting my horse care is not up to scratch.
 
Yes it's very frustrating not knowing the cause but as you say I'll just need to wait on results and take it from there.
Thanks for the sympathy and I'll post an update as soon as I know.
 
That's fantastic that it really made such a difference for your horse, I did touch on the possibility briefly with my farrier but was a few years ago and his feet have really improved with shoeing since then, it may be a possibility in the future, I guess they are all individuals just like us and as we all know what works for one won't always work for another.
I'll wait for MRI results and fully discuss all options with vet and farrier on Tuesday, it's the vet school farrier not my own so he may have some different ideas!
 
Thanks I'll take all that on board although how my feeding regime has been called into question I have no idea as that was nothing to do with my original post!
Certainly I think we're likely to be looking at soft tissue damage but the MRI results will tell.
I'm sorry you feel my responses are snippy but I never came on here asking about barefoot experiences and some people (not yourself) have chosen to respond rather aggressively to me suggesting my horse care is not up to scratch.

I just want to clarify why feeding got mentioned.
That is because it is a general given that good hooves come from
1) feeding
2) movement
3) trim

in that order, with a dose of patience as well, so whenever talking about feet it is never a bad idea to discuss number 1.

That is why exercise got mentioned too, in regards to box rest, no one was talking full ridden work as exercise but gentle in hand walking and field mooching is usually beneficial even with say ddft injuries as rockley has gone some way to showing.

It would be interesting to know what your MRI results conclusions are for the geeks among us if you don't mind updating. :)
 
My goodness you sound a bit defensive for someone who asked for ideas!

You've never head of a barefoot rehab increasing sole thickness? They all do.

I'm not sure why I would have bothered paying to re x ray the rehab I took on with 3mm thick soles, two days before his appointment with a gun. Shortly after I rehomed him he hunted barefoot, so I'm pretty sure his soles were an order of magnitude better then. All the barefoot transitions I have done have resulted in thicker soles.

Sometimes, OP, it's the horse who can't stand on their feet without a shoe on who need barefoot most. My first rehab was unable to be shod both front feet at the same time. He had to have them done one at a time because he could not stand on one without a shoe on. He was lame in shoes. It was difficult for us both, but he evented affiliated Novice nine months later with no shoes on. His alternative was retirement or a bullet. Feet too weak to stand on are also often too weak to tolerate peripheral loading from shoeing.

No-one has said it was easy, or that it will cure all horses, or that all horses can do it, but none of your reasons given so far mean that yours can't. And you seem between a rock and a hard place right now, so why not try it?

When you get your scan results, if they say there is nothing of clinical significance on them, then it does not mean that there is no soft tissue damage, just that they can't find it. A horse I sold went to Leahurst and they said there was nothing but old, healed injury. They gave him a prognosis of a20% chance of ever working again. I went to see the horse and saw very weak digital cushions. He went to Rockley and he was sound in all paces after eight weeks and has remained sound since.
 
you will note I got better at taking pics!

Lame hoof November 2011 deshod for xrays etc
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February shod in bar shoes
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April newly deshod this photo certainly shows the amount of difference on the outside made in shoes on the outside, but the internal structures were obviously still struggling

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Sole shots

November 2011
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I don't have any really recent pics these are a couple of years old and improved again since then, interestingly when he had to have a break recently his soles and frogs really showed it and improved again after. Note no bullnosing anymore though, so pedal bones in a much better place at least.

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That's very interesting, are there any pictures of the soles throughout the process? Would be very interested to see.

look at rockleyfarm.blogspot.com

Rockley is a yard specialising in barefoot rehabs. They do nothing else.

There are more progressive sole shots on that blog than you can shake a stick at :)
 
Of course feeding is very important, I completely agree with you and understand this, the way it was brought up by another user was rather inappropriate. For the record he is fed TopSpec balancer alongside the ulsakind cubes and alfafa/grass chop, the topspec rep visits and monitors weight, condition etc every 6 months. Interestingly about 6 months after I started feeding Topspec my farrier did comment on the improvement on the quality of new horn coming through - proves it works!
I agree light turn out or in hand walking is beneficial for certain injuries after the acute stage. At present I think the vet had prescribed box rest as we actually don't know what we are dealing with. Unfortunately living in Scotland our paddocks are already knee deep in mud so I can see a lot of in hand walking in my future ��
My farrier has done a really fabulous job of changing his feet with trimming/shoeing, he is done every 5 weeks. My farrier is very experienced, he is an examiner and also teaches/examines in the states, I'm not questioning his work but it will be interesting to hear the vet school farrier opinion on Tuesday also.
I'll update you all on Tuesday, hopefully the MRI will pick up on the problem and allow us to come up with a rehabilitation program.
Thanks for your advice ��
 
I don't think coming at me in a patronising tone is at all helpful.
If you read all my posts I am not completely dismissing barefoot option, I have one barefoot already.
Thank you for sharing your experience.
 
So again just for info, anecdotally unshod horses seem to struggle with topspec even though ingredients wise it should be ok.

Also a few don't get on with alfalfa, sometimes shown in behaviour sometimes in feet so worth keeping in mind.
 
For the record he is fed TopSpec balancer alongside the ulsakind cubes and alfafa/grass chop, the topspec rep visits and monitors weight, condition etc every 6 months. Interestingly about 6 months after I started feeding Topspec my farrier did comment on the improvement on the quality of new horn coming through - proves it works!

Barefoot forums are littered with horses with problems on TopSpec and more than a few on alfalfa too. People with barefoot horses tend to recommend one of a very few supplements which have no iron, no manganese and a higher than usual amount of copper, zinc and magnesium.

I usually recommend either Progressive Earth supplements sold on ebay, or Forageplus sold at forageplus.co.uk

Cubes are generally stuck together with molasses and we wouldn't recommend that either, but it's definitely better than a mix with molasses in.
 
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