Undiagnosed hoof lameness - any advice?

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Healthy hoof porn :D
 
HW, you need to 'reply with quote' so that we know which post you are responding to. I think you like mine, but I'm not quite sure :)
 
Apologies if you found my response rather too forthright. I really wasn't questioning your feed regime at the time but I can see that it did read like that. Now you've said what you feed, at the risk of you thinking I'm criticising you again (I'm really not), your horses diet could be improved. Topspec have got a fabulous PR machine but please do not mistake that for great quality feed. Unless you're the owner or a stakeholder in topspec, then there really is no reason for you to be defensive about them. Also, just be aware that the vets and farriers will be making thousands of pounds in their recommendations and advice. The best course of action from here on in is the one that will cost you a fraction of the price. You may already have one horse barefoot but please, for the sake of your other horse, do not dismiss this out of hand. It takes a big leap of faith, a lot of research and reading and time & effort but it's the ONLY way you will end up with a sound horse.
 
That's really interesting that topspec doesn't seem to work on barefoot horses, my barefoot elderly boy is fed topspec too and has no problem. I'll have a look at those feeds if going barefoot is the final decision for him, there's no molasses in the cubes, he has had problems with ulcers in the past so the cubes I'm using are designed specifically to help that.
Thanks for the advice
 
Hollywood78 said:
Interesting, I wonder what topspec would suggest the reason for that would be. Worth baring in mind if we do go barefoot, thank you
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I not sure TopSpec would be the right people to ask :)

What we do know is that most uk grazing is already too high in iron and manganese, so if you add more you have real problems.

Iron and manganese block the gut receptor sites for copper. Too low copper stops insulin being used properly, and that directly affects hoof quality. Most people see an event line followed by better horn when they start to use a no iron no manganese high copper high zinc high magnesium supplement.


This isn't restricted to barefoot horses, all horses benefit from a foot friendly diet. As you notice with your old by boy, every horse is an individual. Some cope with less optimal nutrition, some don't.

I also swear by yeast, it has a double effect to reduce inflammation in the gut and gut health is fundamental to hoof health.
 
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Hollywood78 said:
That's really interesting that topspec doesn't seem to work on barefoot horses, my barefoot elderly boy is fed topspec too and has no problem. I'll have a look at those feeds if going barefoot is the final decision for him, there's no molasses in the cubes, he has had problems with ulcers in the past so the cubes I'm using are designed specifically to help that.
Thanks for the advice
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If his feet are compromised, he will need all the nutritional help he can get. One of the recommended supplements will really help in producing healthy feet (pro earth, equimins, forage plus).
 
Andalucian said:
Healthy hoof porn :D
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Ha not his best but does the job ;) once I started trimming them I seem to have stopped taking pics much as was plenty familiar with them. I wouldn't describe him as rock crunching but was huntable on them ;). Semi retired due to totally separate issue now
 
PoppyAnderson said:
Apologies if you found my response rather too forthright. I really wasn't questioning your feed regime at the time but I can see that it did read like that. Now you've said what you feed, at the risk of you thinking I'm criticising you again (I'm really not), your horses diet could be improved. Topspec have got a fabulous PR machine but please do not mistake that for great quality feed. Unless you're the owner or a stakeholder in topspec, then there really is no reason for you to be defensive about them. Also, just be aware that the vets and farriers will be making thousands of pounds in their recommendations and advice. The best course of action from here on in is the one that will cost you a fraction of the price. You may already have one horse barefoot but please, for the sake of your other horse, do not dismiss this out of hand. It takes a big leap of faith, a lot of research and reading and time & effort but it's the ONLY way you will end up with a sound horse.
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Thanks, yeah it is definitely something I will be researching now. I am well aware that vets etc will recommend the option that makes them money, sorry if it comes across that I am likely to fall for this, believe me I'm not!
As for topspec I'm not a shareholder & I'm not defending them but it does seem to work for my two, both look fantastic & as I said my farrier did notice an improvement in the horn after I started using it, obviously everyone has different experiences and I'm not saying topspec is the be all and end all, actually my 24 year old gets their senior balancer along with Dodson & horrell feed. And if it wasn't working I'd be using something else, interesting though to see a lot of barefoot people saying it's not got good results with a lot of barefoot horses, I do wonder what response they'd have to that!!!
I'm not dismissing barefoot for this horse, at moment I'm waiting on the MRI results and then I'll work with all the information I can gather regarding barefoot along with the results, whatever is best for my horse to get him comfortable will be done.
Thanks for your input ��
 
Hollywood78 said:
That's really interesting that topspec doesn't seem to work on barefoot horses, my barefoot elderly boy is fed topspec too and has no problem. I'll have a look at those feeds if going barefoot is the final decision for him, there's no molasses in the cubes, he has had problems with ulcers in the past so the cubes I'm using are designed specifically to help that.
Thanks for the advice
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I'm afraid there is molasses in the cubes, I have just checked the ingredients list. If you have a sugar sensitive horse, that can tip him over the edge.
 
ycbm said:
I not sure TopSpec would be the right people to ask :)

What we do know is that most uk grazing is already too high in iron and manganese, so if you add more you have real problems.

Iron and manganese block the gut receptor sites for copper. Too low copper stops insulin being used properly, and that directly affects hoof quality. Most people see an event line followed by better horn when they start to use a no iron no manganese high copper high zinc high magnesium supplement.


This isn't restricted to barefoot horses, all horses benefit from a foot friendly diet. As you notice with your old by boy, every horse is an individual. Some cope with less optimal nutrition, some don't.

I also swear by yeast, it has a double effect to reduce inflammation in the gut and gut health is fundamental to hoof health.
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Hahahaha no I'm not sure they would be the ones to ask!!!
Great information thank you again ��
 
Just read the ingredients list. You want no molasses or sugar of any kind. Most D&H feed have got them in. Equimins hoof mender is great as a supplement.
 
Hi! I am really sorry to hear what you are going through, it can be so frustrating. I have a horse who we are struggling to establish what is wrong with him due to the lack of an MRI, however we suspect lesions to the DDFT in the foot. His lameness as been ongoing and on and off over the last 10 months or so. Anyway, I would be very hesitant to make him do too much if what the vet is concerned about is a ligament or tendon damage. Movement is not necessarily helpful at the acute stage. I would say some hand walking is fine in straight lines is fine but only if he is comfortable, and no more than that until you have a confirmed diagnosis. If it is a collateral ligament, your farrier can put special shoes on to help provide support to the ligament. Yes, no shoes are great to some extent - mine improved remarkably when his shoes were pulled but it is not always the answer. If he is that uncomfortable without shoes on that foot as well as having an injury, I would be hesitant to go down the barefoot route. Mine improved with no shoes - but if he had gotten worse I would have had him reshod straight away. Low sugar is beneficial for horses who are barefoot - and really any horse for that matter, especially if you are looking at a period of rest, you may not want your horse to be receiving too much sugar and bouncing off the walls! Best of luck! I am actually going to go back down the remedial shoeing route, as there are things we have not tried yet that both my vet and farrier think would be beneficial. Go with what your gut says and what you think will be best for your horse based off the MRI results :)
 
Diet is a large part of flat feet.

Expensive horse foods are a large part of problems in horses. My horse has a disorder which means she needs an ultra low sugar and starch diet. You would be amazed about the sugar content of most complete horse feeds and most supplements.

Some horses tolerate them, some don't. Personally I think flat sensitive feet are a big flashing beacon the horse doesn't.

When a horse loses a shoe it should not be crippled. If it is, it's already a lame horse which the shoes are masking. Shoes aren't making it sound, they are making it less lame.

I'm on around my tenth BF conversion now. Some have been easier than others. My daughter's pony came to me shod and lost a shoe while on trial. She could hardly walk. So I shod her until the end of the summer so my daughter could enjoy her then took them off. She was bare behind anyway. Her back feet were bigger than her front feet and more developed and most importantly, rock crunching. She came back into work in the spring after around 4 months just in the field. She was much better. Walking programme sorted her out completely and by the following summer she was keeping up with my horse doing 70-100kms of fast work on rough stoney tracks and tarmac.

I 100% follow the Rockley principles (although I don't have a track) and I've got lots of sound, good footed horses.

Incidentally I used to be married to a farrier around the time Strasser came to the fore. So I was well indoctrinated to believe horses needed shoes to work and BF was BAD. Not that I now think Strasser is good - but Rockley definitely is!
 
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DB&B said:
Hi! I am really sorry to hear what you are going through, it can be so frustrating. I have a horse who we are struggling to establish what is wrong with him due to the lack of an MRI, however we suspect lesions to the DDFT in the foot. His lameness as been ongoing and on and off over the last 10 months or so. Anyway, I would be very hesitant to make him do too much if what the vet is concerned about is a ligament or tendon damage. Movement is not necessarily helpful at the acute stage. I would say some hand walking is fine in straight lines is fine but only if he is comfortable, and no more than that until you have a confirmed diagnosis. If it is a collateral ligament, your farrier can put special shoes on to help provide support to the ligament. Yes, no shoes are great to some extent - mine improved remarkably when his shoes were pulled but it is not always the answer. If he is that uncomfortable without shoes on that foot as well as having an injury, I would be hesitant to go down the barefoot route. Mine improved with no shoes - but if he had gotten worse I would have had him reshod straight away. Low sugar is beneficial for horses who are barefoot - and really any horse for that matter, especially if you are looking at a period of rest, you may not want your horse to be receiving too much sugar and bouncing off the walls! Best of luck! I am actually going to go back down the remedial shoeing route, as there are things we have not tried yet that both my vet and farrier think would be beneficial. Go with what your gut says and what you think will be best for your horse based off the MRI results :)
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Can I ask why, if your horse has improved without shoes, you are shoeing him again?

We now have a very big bank of cases that show that barefoot is very, very much more successful in returning horse to full work than remedial shoeing. I hope it works for your horse but the chances are much lower than if you had left him barefoot.

Movement is key to healing these horses. Unless they have had a specific incident, the injuries are chronic, brought on by months or years of incorrect foot balance. They need to get moving, without shoes on, slowly and sometimes even in hand at first, to build the right foot to put the injury right.
 
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ycbm said:
Can I ask why, if your horse has improved without shoes, you are shoeing him again?

We now have a very big bank of cases that show that barefoot is very, very much more successful in returning horse to full work than remedial shoeing. I hope it works for your horse but the chances are much lower than if you had left him barefoot.

Movement is key to healing these horses. Unless they have had a specific incident, the injuries are chronic, brought on by months or years of incorrect foot balance. They need to get moving, without shoes on, to build the right foot to put the injury right.
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Yes, it does seem odd. This horse has had 3 sets of xrays, navicular bursa, coffin joint injections, ultrasound and just finished three rounds of shockwave and was given the all clear to come back into work and is now back to square one and is broken again. Lameness is isolated to the heel region, however no navicular changes on the xray and since he has gone down hill again we suspect it is ddft lesions. He has been turned out the entire time and is a very busy horse, so is getting lots of movement - however for him I think we have too much movement and he keeps tweaking the injury preventing it from healing.

I have an exceptionally good farrier and he believes there are further things that we can try with shoeing as we never really went down that route, and at this point I am prepared to give it a go as everything else has failed. I think that he will get more stability from the shoe and will help protect the area. If it doesn't help, the shoes can go back off and he will get turned out for 12 months. It's basically my last resort.

I think that there is a fit for every horse and it is just finding what works for you and your horse :)
 
Thanks for that answer. I'm sorry you've had problems and barefoot hasn't worked for you. Can I ask how much ridden walk work you managed to do before he went lame again? My experience is that for a lot of these horses, just like FW's pony, field rest is not enough to bring them properly sound and they need miles of walking, starting in hand, before they come right. Had you got through that stage?

Sorry about the inquisition, but the one thing we are short of is information about the barefoot rehabs which didn't work. We badly need it.
 
No worries, this will be a little bit of a novel - I apologise in advance and will try keep it brief, hopefully it makes sense.

I purchased the horse as a rising 5 year old, his feet weren't great, slightly unbalanced and flared. He had 6 months (if that) of work prior to purchasing him and was vetted. He had a mild club foot that wasn't picked up on the vetting - not my usual vet who did it as I travelled to purchase him. Anywho, farrier noticed foot was getting more upright and wanted to fix it - now have a new farrier - vet agreed as well, but they wanted to preserve his competition future and the foots integrity I guess, and he was shod in a graduated bar shoe. Vet had picked up a very mild lameness prior to the change in shoeing and we xrayed as well before making changes. Horse went dead lame within the next few days. Switched him into a graduated pad instead, with some improvement. X-rays were all clear, and we put him on previcox and once he was looking better I started to hack him. A few months later I got a little annoyed and did the classic stuff it, will put him in work and see if it gets better or breaks, he improved heaps in work, and the foot looked better too. Got him to the point where there was only a residual hop that was left - however there was obviously something underlying and bothering him and it didn't get past that point. Vet came, did reasonably extensive diagnostics, 8 weeks turn out - and he was worse. Then did joint injections U/S etc and 10 months later here we are! Shockwave helped and was ok to come into work and re-injured himself. Prior to unsoundness I had him in work for maybe 5 months. Also swapped farriers following the second set of xrays, new farrier is brilliant and sorted out the balance issues that were identified. Hopefully that answers questions, I am not in the UK and the only BF trimmers we have access too are scary or ok but not experienced enough to deal with the issues that I have.
 
They don't trim horses at Rockley. Nor do I trim mine. The one I was talking about has quite poor leg conformation and her feet were smaller than they should have been due to shoeing. She was also toe in. The vetting vet for the previous owner had told them she needed her heels raised or some such rubbish and that was why they had gone down the route of shoeing her.
 
DB&B I'm so sorry, but your story is absolutely typical of many, probably even most, horses shod in wedges to try to resolve lameness in the back half of the foot. If you get to a point when you are prepared to try barefoot again, then you need to be walking the horse out, in hand until it is landing heel first and sound in walk, preferably on flat abrasive surfaces like tarmac.

I hope your farrier and vets new ideas work for you, but from what you've said, I think you still have a fallback of a proper barefoot rehab before you would need to call it a day.

Thanks very much for sharing.
 
Please don't go down the remedial shoeing route. It is doomed to fail and you will never have a sound horse again. Why do you think people are telling you this? On a whim? Just to be obtuse? To laugh at you when it fails? No, of course not. It's because it's the ONLY route that will work. You must plough your own furrow though and find out in your own time. In the meantime, read everything you can get your hands on about barefoot rehab. Search on here, read rockley, look on pheonix horse
 
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