Undiagnosed lameness back again

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As far as the angles of the x rays go, going barefoot has fixed the broken back hoof pastern axis and that should have widened the gap at the front if anything, as the bone has been tilted away. Instead, it's filled in, so there a fair whack of bony changes there. I don't really understand how your vet can have dismissed it as the cause of lameness.
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Have you totally ruled out Cushings? The sound in a straight line, but can't turn sounds ominous. Cushings laminitis does not present like grass lami. Often no heat or pulse, but extreme pain which is hard to control. Apologies if you have already tested.
 
Highmileagecob said:
Have you totally ruled out Cushings? The sound in a straight line, but can't turn sounds ominous. Cushings laminitis does not present like grass lami. Often no heat or pulse, but extreme pain which is hard to control. Apologies if you have already tested.
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I thought this as a possibility, before the x-rays. An easy way to test for this as a possibility is to pad the sole with something soft like a mouse mat or cut up yoga mat and see if it relieves pain.
 
Well its very strange, he was a lot more comfortable tonight. Nothing showed up on the poultice which he kept on in the field during today from when i applied it last night.

No foot pointing, no reaction to walking off after being tied up for an hour whilst mucking out or when coming out of the stable, still fairly sore on a tight circle but vastly improved from last night. Not favouring the leg when standing so much and altogether more positive.

Have reapplied poultice. Our fields are very dry still so maybe its the change of ground from very boggy to barely muddy (about two foot of the track is a bit muddy) walking down to his paddock.

I did text the vet tonight with the different xray and asked if she was sure there was nothing going on where YCBM had circled and she replied that there was mild remodelling of the extensor process of the pedal bone likely to be arthritis/ degenerative joint change but she has stressed that in his case it appears to very mild although she can't rule out the possibility of it being the cause of his lameness.

Will see what tomorrow brings but it's all very bizarre. Some of the paddocks were being harrowed or rolled yesterday so he may have run around a little if others were running but I'm not sure.




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I'm still strip grazing anyway but considering he's come from a hundred acres plus to a small paddock which is strip grazed I don't think it's laminitis.
 

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Birker2020 said:
Well its very strange, he was a lot more comfortable tonight. Nothing showed up on the poultice which he kept on in the field during today from when i applied it last night.

No foot pointing, no reaction to walking off after being tied up for an hour whilst mucking out or when coming out of the stable, still fairly sore on a tight circle but vastly improved from last night. Not favouring the leg when standing so much and altogether more positive.

Have reapplied poultice. Our fields are very dry still so maybe its the change of ground from very boggy to barely muddy (about two foot of the track is a bit muddy) walking down to his paddock.

I did text the vet tonight with the different xray and asked if she was sure there was nothing going on where YCBM had circled and she replied that there was mild remodelling of the extensor process of the pedal bone likely to be arthritis/ degenerative joint change but she has stressed that in his case it appears to very mild although she can't rule out the possibility of it being the cause of his lameness.

Will see what tomorrow brings but it's all very bizarre. Some of the paddocks were being harrowed or rolled yesterday so he may have run around a little if others were running but I'm not sure.




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I know you’ve been treating his foot with all sorts and poulticing so it’s hard to really see clearly from your underneath foot pics what’s what.
I may be seeing things wrong so i’ve drawn on your pic to mark-out the heel landing points, and what looks to me like a massively distorted left bar.
I can’t see clearly on the pic definite bars and sole differences, they merge.
The heels seem very out of alignment with each other, but again i may be seeing it wrong due to angle of pic and because pics can generally distort the truth of hoof in hand.

Bars, with some horses (my mare) when even a little distorted cause discomfort, but very overgrown and over-laid they usually cause pain. They lever at the base of the frog, aswell as flare and compress onto sole causing discomfort.
Im wondering if the poulticing is helping (if the bars are the issue) because the moist poultice is softening the bar material, and sole, helping it flex better, thus less painful to walk on. Hence, when you remove the poultice for 24hrs and he’s now in a dry bed overnight, the sole and bars dry-out, become firmer, and you walk him out in the morning and he’s displaying lameness?
You then put a poultice on for the day and its softening with moisture the bar/sole again so they flex easier and is less painful hours later?

Overgrown bars will usually cause the corresponding side wall to also flare more, which it looks to be from your pic.

But you’ve said your farrier has examined the foot and i can’t believe a farrier would leave such an over-grown bar as i’ve drawn, so i do think i’m seeing it wrong, but thought i’d mention it just in case that left bar is somewhat distorted, even if it’s not as much as i’ve drawn it!

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PurBee said:
I know you’ve been treating his foot with all sorts and poulticing so it’s hard to really see clearly from your underneath foot pics what’s what.
I may be seeing things wrong so i’ve drawn on your pic to mark-out the heel landing points, and what looks to me like a massively distorted left bar.
I can’t see clearly on the pic definite bars and sole differences, they merge.
The heels seem very out of alignment with each other, but again i may be seeing it wrong due to angle of pic and because pics can generally distort the truth of hoof in hand.

Bars, with some horses (my mare) when even a little distorted cause discomfort, but very overgrown and over-laid they usually cause pain. They lever at the base of the frog, aswell as flare and compress onto sole causing discomfort.
Im wondering if the poulticing is helping (if the bars are the issue) because the moist poultice is softening the bar material, and sole, helping it flex better, thus less painful to walk on. Hence, when you remove the poultice for 24hrs and he’s now in a dry bed overnight, the sole and bars dry-out, become firmer, and you walk him out in the morning and he’s displaying lameness?
You then put a poultice on for the day and its softening with moisture the bar/sole again so they flex easier and is less painful hours later?

Overgrown bars will usually cause the corresponding side wall to also flare more, which it looks to be from your pic.

But you’ve said your farrier has examined the foot and i can’t believe a farrier would leave such an over-grown bar as i’ve drawn, so i do think i’m seeing it wrong, but thought i’d mention it just in case that left bar is somewhat distorted, even if it’s not as much as i’ve drawn it!

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Thsnk you, that is very interesting. Trying to get hold of a farrier is like finding hens teeth.

The farrier who last trimmed him was the one from the retirement yard who attended him each time without me present as I was at work, all the horses on the retirement yard were seen at the same time.

It was very rare that I saw the bottom of his foot when we visited as it was always caked in mud. They were never picked out so now I've started thinking maybe its causing issues, maybe its the difference in walking on a harder surface as there's no mud at the moment compared with where he was which had heavy traffic of 92 hooves walking the same bit of ground churning up the paths and turning them into mud porridge.

The y.o was amazing and did her best but the weather and subsequent mud was overwhelming.

I find it very strange how he's so up and down, one minute he's walking so much better the next very sore. And that he went almost 90% improvement within two days being back with me, which he maintained for 6 days before becoming foot sore again. Even the vet watched the video I took and said definitely more comfortable.

It's like a complicated puzzle that requires solving.
 
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Possibly improved having moved around more while out = more likely to be arthritic changes which matches up to why he has got worse moving back to being part time stabled. Though purbee's theory also valid, the bar looks overgrown/overlaid to me too, I'm a fan of not trimming bars generally but that definitely needs seeing to.
 
ester said:
Possibly improved having moved around more while out = more likely to be arthritic changes which matches up to why he has got worse moving back to being part time stabled. Though purbee's theory also valid, the bar looks overgrown/overlaid to me too, I'm a fan of not trimming bars generally but that definitely needs seeing to.
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Echo this, that bar is extreme. And it didn't get that way in one trim, so sadly the retirement livery which B should have been able to trust, couldn't be trusted. It's a nightmare for everyone who can't retire horses at home to know who to trust.

How is he this morning B, if it's arthritis he should be well stiff after a night in.
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ycbm said:
B , if we accept that the bone modelling is mild, can you ask your vet what's going on with that big increase in joint space, it looks very wrong to me, I can't find another x ray like it online. I think I'd want a second opinion.
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Second this .

If he is better in the evening after being out my money is on arthritis, and vets cannot tell if a horse is in pain or not. Can she not nerve block the area to see if his soundness improves? Esp if you do it first thing.
 
Highmileagecob said:
Have you totally ruled out Cushings? The sound in a straight line, but can't turn sounds ominous. Cushings laminitis does not present like grass lami. Often no heat or pulse, but extreme pain which is hard to control. Apologies if you have already tested.
Click to expand...

I had a pony like this.

Came down with sub clinical lami even on very restricted grass, soaked hay etc. Her weight was spot on.

She could be dog lame in the morning and look almost sound by the afternoon. No heat, no pulses etc.

Her soles were paper thin, so stepping on even the tiniest stone or uneven ground left her in terrible pain, even when her feet were padded.

Even when she was on meds for cushings and EMS and her bloods were all in normal range, she continued having attacks and was on 2 bute plus paracetamol and still in pain.

Sadly we just couldn't get it under control, so I called it a day.

Never seen anything like it before, and I sincerely hope I never see it again.
 
ycbm said:
Echo this, that bar is extreme. And it didn't get that way in one trim, so sadly the retirement livery which B should have been able to trust, couldn't be trusted. It's a nightmare for everyone who can't retire horses at home to know who to trust.

How is he this morning B, if it's arthritis he should be well stiff after a night in.
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I've rang the farrier and left another voice mail today. Hoping he'll get back to me. If not I'll have to go elsewhere.

I can't go to the yard before work due to logistics - I have to be in work for 7.30am in the city miles away. And I have nothing to turn him out with, as they don't get turned out until 8.30/9am so staff breakfast and t/o. They'd ring me if they felt he couldn't go out or was particularly bad.

I get what you're saying about arthritis making him stiff as I thought that and I'd already suggested that to the vet as being a possibility suddenly been stabled but she said she doubted it was that, especially as he'd been fine for six days in overnight stabling, before suddenly going lame. And he'd been fine during the 2 months rehab I'd done with him previously after coming home from the retirement yard.

All I can think is it's either:

a) abscess that's coming out
b) he's ran around in the paddock and suddenly gone footy as he's had the last 2 years on very soft ground and now he's being led up a flinty track to a well drained and unused flat dry paddock. He did trot out to the strip grazing I'd added Sunday morning in excitement and had been galloping about at retirement prior to coming home too.
c) issue as HMC/Purbee suggests with the sole of the foot and uneven load bearing (thanks for the drawings, most helpful for farrier Purbee).
d) sudden onslaught of arthritic pain for some reason (possibly related to the hard ground).
e) trodden on a sharp stone and bruised sole

I'll go straight after visiting Mum tonight as I've not seen her since Sunday and see how he is.

The difference in him coming out of the stable last night and him turning compared with Wednesday before i started poulticing was staggering in such a short time. That's why I'm certain it's not laminitis, or abscess or even coffin joint, or tendon (tendon fine). It would point to sensitivity of the foot i.e poultice padding v no poultice padding. But that doesn't explain why great for 6 days after coming home from retirement.

It's a mystery. If only they would talk.
 
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southerncomfort said:
I had a pony like this.

Came down with sub clinical lami even on very restricted grass, soaked hay etc. Her weight was spot on.

She could be dog lame in the morning and look almost sound by the afternoon. No heat, no pulses etc.

Her soles were paper thin, so stepping on even the tiniest stone or uneven ground left her in terrible pain, even when her feet were padded.

Even when she was on meds for cushings and EMS and her bloods were all in normal range, she continued having attacks and was on 2 bute plus paracetamol and still in pain.

Sadly we just couldn't get it under control, so I called it a day.

Never seen anything like it before, and I sincerely hope I never see it again.
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I had a very similar experience :(
 
marmalade76 said:
I had a very similar experience :(
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Well sorry to hear that Marmalade and SC.

But all horses are individuals and if Lari can't be helped then I will of course make the right decision for him as I did for Bailey. But at this stage it could be something very simple and he's had a huge change of circumstances so I'm not going to catastrophise or write him off just yet.
 
Can I just ask who would you recommend would be best placed to deal with this. I am not intending to put shoes back on the fronts.

A) a barefoot expert
B) a farrier
 
Birker2020 said:
Can I just ask who would you recommend would be best placed to deal with this. I am not intending to put shoes back on the fronts.

A) a barefoot expert
B) a farrier
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Matt Burrows, you would need either to take the horse to TCEH and contact the hospital to make the appointment. Or contact Matt direct and take the horse to his forge in Kempsey. Hour travelling from Shirley/Solihull.
 
I have no idea if I am on UI, I probably am.
If he was mine then I would boot both fronts with a boot such as trails, cavallos type boots and leave them on. I would b
e looking at the difference in him walking on concrete etc. Probably padding the boots.

I would leave him booted 24/7 for a while and see what difference it made.


I would also stop the bute and see what difference that made. I have never given bute for an abscess.

There is also the question of winter laminitis. It has been cold for some this winter especially a horse in a field and these past few nights have been very frozen down here.


There is also the question of cushings.

I had a horse that had a pretty simple stone bruise and it took weeks going from lame to sound and back again. I have had an abscess that took 3 months and then we only knew when he came sound and there was the tell tale line across the wall. That was after x rays, one farrier and 2 horse vets who couldn't find anything in the foot.

I'm not sure where you are in relation to Mark Johnson. It could be worth paying him travel exp. to come out for a consultation re the foot.
 
AdorableAlice said:
Matt Burrows, you would need either to take the horse to TCEH and contact the hospital to make the appointment. Or contact Matt direct and take the horse to his forge in Kempsey. Hour travelling from
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Thank you for telling everyone where I keep my horse AA.

That is not in the spirit of the forum and I have never mentioned this on the forum before as I have a right of privacy the same as yourself and you have violated this right.

Please delete your comment immediately.
 
Birker2020 said:
Thank you for telling everyone where I keep my horse AA.

That is not in the spirit of the forum and I have never mentioned this on the forum before as I have a right of privacy the same as yourself and you have violated this right.

Please delete your comment immediately.
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Errr, you have West Mids as your location..... And an hour from S/S is a big area.
 
I'm not sure AA has done anything particularly wrong, it's well known the area where OP is. That said if OP is feeling particularly sensitive over it, maybe a less inflammatory and more productive way of dealing with it would be a polite/friendly PM to request the edit. But the OP is free to post how they wish obviously :rolleyes:
 
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