Unethical breeding?

Louby

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 July 2005
Messages
6,106
Location
Manchester
I havent read all your replies sorry but have just had a converstaion with my farrier about young horses and the fact I thought that maybe I should be doing a little more with her to build up her muscle as she intermittently gets locking stifle, shes 4. He basically said that in his opinion you get 2 types, those that are physically but not mentally capable and those that are mentally but not physically able, the first often end up with blown minds from doing too much and the second often broken by the time they are 10. My horse falls in the second catagory, so was backed in March as she was basically bored and has hacked lightly for the last couple of months. He thought my light hacking was perfect and that next yr she will be physically stronger to start properly. He said too many people are in such a rush, hunting, jumping and endless circles which often results in a shorter life/work span.
 
Last edited:

tristar

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 August 2010
Messages
2,172
an irish farrier i know says in ireland if a mare does not compete well they, oh well i can still breed from her!

i think all breeds should be allowed to mature before working hard, and i believe many horses are are still growing and finishing up to nine years old.

then there is the way they are trained and ridden, done by a wally i would expect problems, done by a classically considerate experienced rider i`d expect the horse tp last longer
 

mule

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 October 2016
Messages
4,306
Location
Ireland
an irish farrier i know says in ireland if a mare does not compete well they, oh well i can still breed from her!

i think all breeds should be allowed to mature before working hard, and i believe many horses are are still growing and finishing up to nine years old.

then there is the way they are trained and ridden, done by a wally i would expect problems, done by a classically considerate experienced rider i`d expect the horse tp last longer
You're right of course but some of it is just bad luck. Some of them also seem determined to damage themselves. I have the most accident prone horse imaginable. He's retired now because it's too difficult to keep him sound. He's going to be 17 next year and tbh I'm a bit surprised he's still here 😮 He's still galloping around the field with the other gelding and would be ok for hacking but anytime he sees something he disapproves of he teleports sideways 🙄 so I prefer hacking the sensible one. He is a very kind type and a very honest jumper. He would be perfect if he could stay sound.
 

Cortez

Well-Known Member
Joined
17 January 2009
Messages
8,741
Location
Ireland
an irish farrier i know says in ireland if a mare does not compete well they, oh well i can still breed from her!

i think all breeds should be allowed to mature before working hard, and i believe many horses are are still growing and finishing up to nine years old.

then there is the way they are trained and ridden, done by a wally i would expect problems, done by a classically considerate experienced rider i`d expect the horse tp last longer
Yeah, you would expect that, but it ain't always so.
 

Lola43

Well-Known Member
Joined
13 June 2010
Messages
113
With regard to the age and workload, I still can't get away from the fact that of the three ID/IDx I have personal experience of, the first ISH I had I bought direct from the breeder two weeks after backing at 4years old. He was brought on slowly and, as I am not a competitive person, he did very little of any consequence in his life. He might have gone in the school for very basic flatwork once or twice a week and jumped once in a blue moon. Went cross country schooling about three times ever and did a couple of hunter trials. Didn't go hunting until he was 6 and even then less than half a dozen times in a season. So, when he was pts aged 10 I would have considered him low mileage.

Perhaps my original question about unethical breeding should be more general - not just about ID, although that is my own experience. What I was really trying to generate a discussion about is whether too many people are overlooking issues that SHOULD give pause for thought when breeding. What about the stuff you can't see? For instance, should I, with potentially an unrideable horse on my hands in the near future, breed from her because she is useless for everything else? She is a good stamp (some of the abovementioned lines in her breeding), has good conformation and a willing temperament. However, would it be unethical to breed from her because she has arthritis in her hocks and PSD?
 
Last edited:

tristar

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 August 2010
Messages
2,172
personally i would not breed from her.

its just perpetuating the tendancy, whatever the risk i would not think it worth it.

i only breed from mares that are alpha personality and spark me into thinking i must breed from this mare, its the thought at the back of my mind that keeps bugging until i do something about i, probably over a long period of time which of course makes you look at potential sires and bloodlines until the best recipe is formed, its never failed me.
 

SEL

Well-Known Member
Joined
25 February 2016
Messages
4,566
Location
Buckinghamshire
For instance, should I, with potentially an unrideable horse on my hands in the near future, breed from her because she is useless for everything else? She is a good stamp (some of the abovementioned lines in her breeding), has good conformation and a willing temperament. However, would it be unethical to breed from her because she has arthritis in her hocks and PSD?
I have a mare who x-rayed with quite significant arthritic changes in her hocks at just 6 after a late and light start under saddle. Presumably genetic. She's also got type 1 PSSM. On the plus side she's pretty and would throw a spotty foal!!

Even ignoring the PSSM the arthritis at such a young age would put me off breeding from her. I'm assuming it's juvenile arthritis and surely there must be a genetic element to it.

If she'd been otherwise healthy but stuffed a tendon in the field like my friend's lovely TB then that's a whole different matter.
 

BigBuck's

Well-Known Member
Joined
31 January 2013
Messages
139
There may well be a genetic element and I would never breed from a mare who had developed arthritis (unless it could be linked unequivocally to an earlier injury and was therefore purely mechanical) but I also think we're seeing more arthritis and earlier because we're breeding bigger horses - how often do H&H comment on the size of some 17.2+ giant in the course of a dressage report, as if that's a good thing? - doing more with them at a younger age; often forced to spend much more time in a school and far less doing slow and steady conditioning roadwork thanks to the state of the roads, and to a certain extent because diagnostics have improved.

The breed I have most concern about is the KWPN - I know at least six people who have either lost their dressage-bred KWPNs to arthritic hocks/PSD/associated issues, or had to retire them, or only manage to keep them 'sound' through regularly medicating their hocks. Again there could be some genetics at play, as they're all from one or more of the 'big three' lines of Jazz, Flemmingh or Ferro, but perhaps the type of work they do at the age they do it is lighting the fuse that causes any genetic timebomb to explode?
 
Top