Unexpected pregnancy - advice needed please

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Beatrice5

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Hello,

This is my first post so apologies for any mistakes.

I have just discovered my wonderful cob x Arab 5 year old mare is pregnant. She came to me in June after a rather shaky start in life and with no background info as the lady I bought her from bought her off the back off a lorry at the new forest sales. I traced her previous owners through her passport and found out I was her seventh home. She hadn't been backed as I was first told and had been mistreated which I had already worked out for myself.

I always had in the back of my mind she could be pregnant even though her previous two owners thought this very unlikely. So we worked through her issues one by one and I now have a superb trusting confident young lady whom I absolutely adore.

Her stomach has always been very round and dispite the grass going off in the Autumn she continues to grow although had no fat on her just this large belly. So I asked a lady I recently met who I knew had bred horses to give me an opinion and she said she was 90% sure we are in the last 3 months. I had thought wind doesn't make your stomach move that much as she has a very active belly and to have a second opinion has made me sure. I am not prepared to let a vet rumage around inside her as she has trust issues with strangers and I am not going to risk upsetting her when she is currently happy with my vet.

I need a good book to get me going. I have just started to give her a scoop of stud nuts a day and a wedge of hay as she is on reasonable grass. She has always had access to a mineral lick and a small amount of chaff and some feed balancer so I hope I have not done any damage to the foal by underfeeding her these past 6 months.

I have stopped riding her now as she has never been fit and the hills around here are very steep and she was beggining to slow down a lot.

I am so worried about foaling her and have someone whom I know resonably well and who seems to be on good recommendation who will foal her for me but I am hesitant about sending her away even though it is only 5 miles down the road but I worry she will feel abandoned and sold yet again. We are new to this county so I am just getting to know the other horsey people and find it very hard trusting a new person with my wonderful mare.

We only have a 2 acre paddock at home with an old field shelter and a corral which is post and railed but the paddock is Somerset banks and ditches so not ideal for a foal, I also have use of a neighbours 3 acres which is wire fencing so again not horse friendly. I am also told that mares and foals need to be with other mares and foals and the best thing for my mare is this. I want to get everything right as I know this early socialisation is important but am so saddened that I will loose my mare for nearly a year and it may upset all my hard work with her.

Also is it true you cannot ride a mare for nearly a year after the birth as her ligaments are too slack and you will damage her back?

I am keen to wean the foal as painlessly and naturally as possible are ther any good books on this and at what age can the mare and foal happily live together back in my little herd ) we have a 20yr old loan pony and a 2yr old new forest)

Any advice appreciated.

Many thanks,
Amanda
 
Hi Amanda

If you have never foled before you would be wise to send your mare to someone who knows what they are doing. There are so many things that can go wrong. However she may just foal down!

after the foal is weaned you should be able to ride your mare, we have started riding scary mary with Isis watching on from a near by field.

there is loads of info on the internet just google it

good luck
 
Hello,

I did try the internet first but found a few snippets but nothing really in depth. I want facts and figures. Nutritional requirements, size of foal, development in the womb, a bit like Dr Mirriam stoppard but for horses
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Thank you for your reply
Amanda
 
I think it really would be best to get a positive pregnancy test I was conviced my mare was in foal last year she got bigger and bigger and had udder developement but was not not in foal ,even the experts can get it wrong ,so before you get too excited please get a positive test done
 
Id have to know for sure, even if it was just the test things you can get.

There was a lady on here a few months ago and almost everyone thought her mare was pregnant, including the vet, pics, movements, slackening etc. She was empty.

If she is then I would send her away to a good local stud, thats what I will do with my mare next year as I know nothing about how to help her if something went wrong. I think its too risky and couldnt live with myself if something bad happened.

Good luck and let us know.
 
Please don't build you hopes up to much, and i apologies if this post seams negative but i have 2 experiances of this:-

1)when i was in the North we had a rescue horse - it turned out she was in foal and did deliver a beautiful foal - unfortunatley he had the biggest ears you have ever seen, and when i saw him for the 1st time i thought -urmmmm - funneist looking foal i ever saw. A couple of weeks later he called his mum !! yep you guessed it he was a stunning little mule!

2) a mare that had been brought was thought to be in foal, she was showing all the signs but she did turn out to be having a phantom pregnancies.
 
I agree that if you could find out for sure (with the least possible stress to your mare) then the better for you both. As if she is not in foal, you could continue with your riding, without 'waiting about' for a few months for a foal not to show. However if she is in foal, you can start to seriously consider your options, for foaling her, then their keep together, then weaning time.

I too agree with the Janet Lorch book recommended, plus another 'Your Mare's First Foal by Jane Skepper'. Both are good basic introductions for 1st timers (Although that majority of the choosing a stallion & early care stuff, is a bit late for you
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)

I rode my mare around weaning time. I'd heard it actually helps. Obviously take it easy (as I'm sure you would) & not go cross country schooling the first week back on board. I know of a few people who actually ride either with the foal trotting alongside (have very good facilities to do this) or later as an introduction to weaning, by building up the time mum was away from baby.

If you are interested in the size of foal growth/size. I came across this. Not fab, but will give you an idea
Foal Foetus Development

But most of all - Good luck! It sounds like your mare is very lucky to have found you.

I wish you all the best.
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Thank you for your replies.

What is the least intrusive method of pregnancy testing? The vets said it's either a blood test or an internal exam but neither can date the pregnancy. I know she did run with a stallion last winter and left him in april this year. Even though I travelled quite far to get her the stallion is actully a local one! poor girl she has been all over the place in her short life so far.

My gut feeling having really tuned into her and built a relationship is that she has been trying to tell me this for a while now.

But also I would be more than happy if she wasn't expecting as there are too many unwanted waifs and strays in this world and too many ignorant owners and I feel this is a HUGE responsibility to either try and finance another horse myself or find the right home.

Other than yet another vets bill what is to be gained or lost by giving her the winter off and waiting to see what arrives. I just want to be ready and educated for whatever is about to happen.

Thank you Smee for the timeline it was just what I was looking for and very helpful.

Bestw wishes
Amanda x
 
As others have sugested, it would be beneficial to find out for sure that she is definately pregnant.

As for feeding, As long as she has access to good quality grass and hay, she really shouldn't need much else - perhaps a vitamin and mineral lick in the field shelter. Suddenly adding lots more calories to her diet can do two things - cause her to gain lots of weight and cause the foal to grow big - neither of which are particularly good. It might be work you seeking some advice from an independent nutritionist.

'foal to full grown' is a very good book.

Would your friend be able to be 'on call' to come and help with the foaling when the time comes?
 
It will only take the vet a min to find out by doing a rectal if she is in the last 3 months it isn't as intrusive as you would think (Tho saying this I wouldn't stand a quietly as my mare does if someone was doing that to me)

You are better off knowing - at least then you can feed her accordingly over winter and be prepared for anything bad that could happen.
 
My 'Bible' for foaling is The Complete Book of Foaling by Karen E N Hayes DVM MS.

It is a bit technical and scary for the home breeder but absolutely everything is covered but would agree with those who recommend you check your mare is in foal first.

There is a lot that can go wrong but actually it is possible for the novice owner to foal down at home as long as you make sure everything is set up for it and have some more experienced help on hand (and the vet on speed dial)
 
i used a wee foal test on my mare to double check she was still in foal. they can be used up to 300 days i think. they are very easy to use and read. I also had the vet to examine a pony i got in foal without a due date. Vet told me 6 to 8 weeks to go and i had to wait 10 weeks in the end so not too far out for a guide.
 
As you have all ben so helpful here are some more questions - sorry!

How long does my mare have to stay at the place she is foaling? I had originally thought she should stay there till weaning but to be honest finances may not permit that. Can I wean the foal gradually at home using my other two ponies as companions and what provisions do I need to make ie is thick electric tape suitable or is post and rail the only suitable fencing?

Is the best place for the foal with other similar aged foals of would it be able to play with my 2 yr old newforest? And at what age can foal and Mum be with my other ponies? (Connie 20yrs sec B and Willow 2 yrs New Forest Gelding) The foal is from a 15.2 hh middle weight ( arab x Cob) mare by a 16hh coloured hunter type stallion said to be a warmblood although looked more like a run of the mill hunter to me.

Can my mare wear a rug while she is feeding the foal and is it safe? Also is a foal rug a safe option as we are looking at a Jan / Feb foal. I will get a vet to confirm this as much as possible but we are going to have to see if my mare will allow an examination as she may well be too frightened. Prob just go with the urine test which won't tell us much.

But as my mare is on the light side due to not being fed ( As i didn't know she was in foal) I think it makes her more obviously in foal as she has ribs which are getting better now I am starting to feed her, no bum and no crest and is just a walking belly and yes she has been wormed and she is on Equine gold probiotic. I know when I was pregnant because I am slim it made it more obvious to see and feel my babies as I was all baby which is exactly what my mare is like - her stomach ripples and limbs poke out so I am pretty certain but will get her tested just to reassure everyone it's not an alien
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Best wishes
Amanda x
 
I can absolutely see why you wouldn't want to send her away again and I'm not convinced it is necessary by any means. You may be able to hear the foal's heartbeat with a doppler machine - pig farmers often have them and they are not intrusive.

If she's a native and the stallion wasn't huge, you don't really need to go mad with the feeding, either, and as for her mixing with the others once she has had the foal - why on earth shouldn't she? They are naturally herd animals and the foal will stick by mum anyway.

Get a good book and go with your intuition as regards the welfare and happiness of the mare. Get as near to the date as you can estabish and there are milk strips you can get which indicate when foaling is close - although she may still surprise you.

Watching and waiting is the most tiring part and we almost missed one mare as there were no signs at all at one am and we said we'd go aout again at three, popped out at two anyway and foalie was presenting!

Good luck and keep us informed.

Which stallion was it?
 
What signs do you mares actually show before they give birth? Do they all bag up with milk and bums drop? My mare is getting little soft pads just in front of her teats and has started to be more bossy with the others - nothing nasty just shooing them away with one ear back to say this is my hay keep away where as she used to share happily. Also she has started grazing on her own and not with the other two.
 
You definately need to get this all confirmed by a vet. For starters, it is VERY unlikely you will be having a Jan/Feb foal - mares rarely start cycling early enough in the year naturally to have a foal at this stage of the year. Jan/Feb is TB foaling season, and all of their mares have to go under artificial lights early in the year to start them cycling earlier than normal!

It really is impossible, no matter how experienced the person to tell from looking at a mare on the outside whether they are in foal, and how far along they are.

You mention the big belly - given her chequered history, have you had her worm counted? Is her worming up to date? This would be another reason to make her look the way she is (especially given she is very light apart from the belly).

Also - re foal movement, it is rare to feel it or see it, even at the very late stages. The dates for me, don't add up.
 
Hello,

Yes she has been wormed regularly by me Equimax tabs when I got her in June and Panacur 5 day followed by double dose of strongid P (October) to do the tape worms so should have covered all bases.

She ran with the stallion last winter until April. Yes it would be unusual for her to have cycled early but not impossible my vet tells me. She has slowed down on her hill work so something has been taking her energy and she is well rugged and on good grass ' hay and having a hard feed.

If you put your hand on her belly you can feel it wiggling and feel hard lumps pushing around. I'll do a urine test as I am not keen on having a vet upset her with his arm up her bottom!!
 
I'm sure I can see mine moving, shes 7 months. Also sure I felt a hoof yesterday - something small and hard anyway!
 
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Hello,

Yes she has been wormed regularly by me Equimax tabs when I got her in June and Panacur 5 day followed by double dose of strongid P (October) to do the tape worms so should have covered all bases.

She ran with the stallion last winter until April. Yes it would be unusual for her to have cycled early but not impossible my vet tells me. She has slowed down on her hill work so something has been taking her energy and she is well rugged and on good grass ' hay and having a hard feed.

If you put your hand on her belly you can feel it wiggling and feel hard lumps pushing around. I'll do a urine test as I am not keen on having a vet upset her with his arm up her bottom!!

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I would have her worm counted - you may not have covered all bases - Fenbendazole (Panacur) is effectively useless nowadays as resistance is so high. The only time I would ever use it is to start a very poor horse off on a worming program (it will remove such a small amount of worms it is not too much of a shock to the system). Ivermection resistance is also starting to become more and more widespread - and this is the drug in Equimax. Fenbendazole is the drug that treats encysted redworms which are the ones that cause horses to go downhill. Moxedectin (Equest) is the only drug treating these worms that has no known resistance. So effectively you may not have touched the encysted redworms she could have.

Get your vet to come and put a hand in the mare and see if she is in foal. If he is a half decent stud vet he will also be able to at least slightly date the pregnancy by the size of the foal he feels. Bearing in mind the weather in this country, if you have a foal on the way in mid-winter you need to be seriously prepared! So the best thing you can do for the mare is not mess around with any of these home tests and umming and ahhing and just get the vet!
 
A quick question before I do anything else does a worm belly drop and go pear shaped as I always thought a worm belly on a dog, cat, horse or child was a round pot belly?

Moxedectin is the wormed I was told was related to sweet itch and skin problems so I try to avoid it.

Maybe a blood test would do both worms and foal and avoid too much upset?
 
I think you can overanalyse the shape of a belly!!

I run a stud, and have just wormed 25 horses with Moxidectin - it is the only wormer I trust nowadays, and I cannot afford to have worm problems with so many youngsters on the place. I have been using it for years with not a single problem. You will always find someone who says they have a problem with a certain drug - but the fact is Panacur Guard does not work anymore, it is almost totally ineffective for treating encycted worms, and they are the bad ones - the ones that cause condition loss and colic (and death, ultimately).

Likewise - I have lost count of the amount of mares we've rectalled this year (some mares when we are doing frozen have it done every six hours!). It is not distressing in the slightest for them, and as I said a good stud vet will know in seconds if she is in foal. If she is due to drop even a fairly stupid vet will know straight away as the foal will be right there and moving against the vets hand/arm.
 
Beatrice, it looks like you are desperate for advice and the people here can offer you that in spades. However, unless you find out once and for all if she is in foal what good can we do?

You need to get your vet to come and do the tests necessary to put your mind at ease and give you an estimate of how long (or not) you have left to go.

Talking about riding her, weaning her, etc are all irrelevant until you find out this most basic of things.

Good luck, we all await your news eagerly!
 
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Maybe a blood test would do both worms and foal and avoid too much upset?

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Possibly. But very few mares object to being scanned.
 
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Beatrice, it looks like you are desperate for advice and the people here can offer you that in spades. However, unless you find out once and for all if she is in foal what good can we do?

You need to get your vet to come and do the tests necessary to put your mind at ease and give you an estimate of how long (or not) you have left to go.

Talking about riding her, weaning her, etc are all irrelevant until you find out this most basic of things.

Good luck, we all await your news eagerly!

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As she said
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There are thousands of mares pregnancy scanned in the UK every year with no problems, so get the mare checked by a vet, that is the only way you will know for sure.
 
Not being gross but would the vet have to go in up to his shoulder if she was only 7 months gone? This is the least pregnant she would be if she was. And to scan I thought this wasn't done later on in pregnancy as they can't get a decent view due to size of foal. Would they be able to detect a second faster heatbeat by a stethascope?

I will call the vet once they return from lunch and grit my teeth for yet another vets bill ( Willow my NF had colic a few weeks ago and an emergency call out was rather a shocker ! But hey it did the trick and for that I am grateful)

Interesting about wormers though. I have always done the Panacur 5 day scince I can remember and at nearly £20 a go I am a tad miffed if it really is ineffective - thats £60 a go for my 3 and a total waste of money
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I use it on my dogs - the dog version not the horse bottle! and pregnant bitches and puppies again always have ( only have the occasional littler not even once a year so no one start on me for that)

Will let you know what vet says just hope I get one with kind hands as if someone did that to me I'd double barrell them
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She had a spin when my friend tried to change her rug for me this morning as my little boy was cold and wanted a hug so I was holding him.
 
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And to scan I thought this wasn't done later on in pregnancy as they can't get a decent view due to size of foal.

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You can scan as early as 15 days - so don't worry about 7 months.

Good luck - let us know how you get on.




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Are you serious?
I'm sorry, having horses and vets bills go together!
If you want anymore advice make the phone call and let us know the outcome, ONCE the vet has been.

If you keep posting responses like those you've already asked we'll start thinking we have a troll in here.
 
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