Unfixed portables... again...

was fence judging a couple of years ago at last fence on a Eventing Ireland course, it was not fixed properly, after 2nd or third horse hit it, not striding properly either! we radioed in..... obviously we were thought to be ...being silly... anyway after about 7th or 8th horse hit and moved it, radioed in again. course builder came out and fixed it properly. It is so fundamental to safety, I cannot see how anyone should say that it should not be compulsory. To my mind, how can the Pony club as said in a post higher up on here...not taking responsibility.. if you tried to ride in an untagged hat, what would happen? yet unfixed fences as Kerrilli has said lead to far more injuries and falls, than an untagged hat!!!
 
BronsonNutter said:
I miss her posts!
Worryingly, I used to compete at that place a lot and can't remember anything ever being fixed back then, but that was before I know anything about XC safety... They really should know better, maybe now they will fix them properly.
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Also thinking of same place and been there.... very scary!!
 
Unfixed portables, I keep thinking of that poor kid who was killed by one. If you are not happy with a fence ,tell the organiser in front of witnesses . And then explain to them that if the unthinkable happens,that they were warned and that their decision to continue could lay them open to a charge of manslaughter. It sharpens their thoughts considerably.
 
Mike007 said:
Unfixed portables, I keep thinking of that poor kid who was killed by one. If you are not happy with a fence ,tell the organiser in front of witnesses . And then explain to them that if the unthinkable happens,that they were warned and that their decision to continue could lay them open to a charge of manslaughter. It sharpens their thoughts considerably.
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faced with this approach, any organiser should pack up and go home, cancel their event for ever, never bother getting stressed for weeks before an event trying to provide a facility for riders, have a lie in for once, relax, take a holiday and just start to enjoy evenings and weekends again, free from the gigantic endless hassle of being an organiser.

the people who think we are like tescos, with a complete complaints dept open 24/7 for instant gratification with drive-thru access to their results available even before they have finished and who think we are coining it in running these events - think again. go and run your own bloody event.

the way to do this is to approach the organiser and be helpful, constructive, pleasant and well mannered, as sooo many manage to be. if an event really doesnt fix it's portables, then they need to be made aware of the zeitgeist, if not the rules. my course is fixed from 2'3 to novice but my 1'6 isnt. not because i cant be bothered but because i have assessed it.

come at me mob handed with threats, you're on your way to the exit. no manners, no ride. goodbye.
 
Wessex yeoman can you explain the risk assessment that led you believe fixing the 1'6 wasn't necessary?

I only ask because surely a course that size has proportionally smaller ponies using it and therefore I would have assumed the effect of a small portable tipping under a tiny pony would be the same as a larger portable tipping under a larger horse? Is it not? Why not? I am guessing my understanding is lacking somewhere? :)
 
wessexyeoman said:
the way to do this is to approach the organiser and be helpful, constructive, pleasant and well mannered, as sooo many manage to be. if an event really doesnt fix it's portables, then they need to be made aware of the zeitgeist, if not the rules. my course is fixed from 2'3 to novice but my 1'6 isnt. not because i cant be bothered but because i have assessed it.

come at me mob handed with threats, you're on your way to the exit. no manners, no ride. goodbye.
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Fair enough, but it's absolutely not about the 'zeitgeist', it's about physics and hidden danger. This is a NEW phenomenon... go back a decade or two and there were no portable fences, xc fences were permanent and anchored there until they sank/rotted into the ground! No fences lied to horses and riders, pretending to be solid when they are not...
None of us want to get Health and Safety up in arms, we all know and fully accept the intrinsic danger of riding half a tonne of not-bright-enough-to-avoid-pooing-in-its-water flight animal across country at fixed obstacles. But unfixed portables (however small) are a trick to horse and rider, they sit there like a landmine waiting for the unlucky...
I'd love to hear your reasoning for not bothering to fix 1'6" and below. If you restrict it to 16.2s and up I can just about understand (anything should be able to stay upright over something at knee height or below) but if we are talking about small ponies jumping 1'6" and potentially lifting/flipping them, I'd like to hear your explanation of why that can't, in your opinion, cause a rotational onto rider.
 
kerilli said:
I'd love to hear your reasoning for not bothering to fix 1'6" and below. If you restrict it to 16.2s and up I can just about understand (anything should be able to stay upright over something at knee height or below) but if we are talking about small ponies jumping 1'6" and potentially lifting/flipping them, I'd like to hear your explanation of why that can't, in your opinion, cause a rotational onto rider.
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I know where it is (well it's not difficult to find out from the poster's previous posts) and the smaller courses are used in competition for horses and ponies of any height (and not surprisingly tend to attract the most novice combinations). I've jumped plenty of times there, though only round the bigger courses (which were always properly fixed).

I'd love to hear why it is felt not necessary to fix the smaller portables too...
 
rhino said:
I know where it is (well it's not difficult to find out from the poster's previous posts) and the smaller courses are used in competition for horses and ponies of any height (and not surprisingly tend to attract the most novice combinations). I've jumped plenty of times there, though only round the bigger courses (which were always properly fixed).

I'd love to hear why it is felt not necessary to fix the smaller portables too...
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In my limited experience, it often seems that the smaller jumps are the ones that horses will trip up over - presumably because they are small, neither horse nor rider makes the same effort they would to clear a larger obstacle.
 
IMO it's just as vital to fix the small obstacles are those riding over them are likely to lack the experience (or the bottle) to ride forwards in a balanced manner. On the other side of the coin to a bigger & more experienced horse obtacles of 1'6" probably become a trip hazzard which can also lead to nasty falls if badly ridden as there can be a tendency not to pick up properly, but to almost trot over them instead.
 
the fences on the 1'6 are hardly fences at all. it is hard to 'build' a 1'6 fence! for instance 2 or 3 railway sleepers on top of eachother, a small log... and the actual portables are no higher even if they do get upended. because they are basically not far off ground level, there isnt any structure to them. completely different matter when you are looking at a house or chair or whatever that has wider dimensions than its height.

the actual 'portable' 1'6s are very heavy, very wide - flag to flag, but not deep - spread - and the competitors are more walk and trot.

even at 2'3, competitors have the opportunity to clatter into a fence and upend it due to its height and the speed of the horse/pony but at 1'6, the jumps never get touched. there isnt a pony alive that cant walk over a 1'6.

and in part, that's why risks are assessed. nothing is ever completely absolute and no one solution fits all issues.

my main point however was that there are many ways to approach an organiser when you have concerns, and any half decent organiser will listen but i really objected to the heavy handed legal threat version of 'how to do it'.
 
kerilli said:
Fair enough, but it's absolutely not about the 'zeitgeist', it's about physics and hidden danger. This is a NEW phenomenon... go back a decade or two and there were no portable fences, xc fences were permanent and anchored there until they sank/rotted into the ground! No fences lied to horses and riders, pretending to be solid when they are not...
None of us want to get Health and Safety up in arms, we all know and fully accept the intrinsic danger of riding half a tonne of not-bright-enough-to-avoid-pooing-in-its-water flight animal across country at fixed obstacles. But unfixed portables (however small) are a trick to horse and rider, they sit there like a landmine waiting for the unlucky...
I'd love to hear your reasoning for not bothering to fix 1'6" and below. If you restrict it to 16.2s and up I can just about understand (anything should be able to stay upright over something at knee height or below) but if we are talking about small ponies jumping 1'6" and potentially lifting/flipping them, I'd like to hear your explanation of why that can't, in your opinion, cause a rotational onto rider.
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by zeitgeist, i simply mean moving with the times, and times have moved. and in fairness to health and safety, it is all about just that, health and safety. i am a fan of health and safety and compliance - it means i don't have sleepless nights worrying about fence number 5 which i know isn't built properly and im taking a chance nobody clatters it..... i dont want nights or events like that. my job as an organiser is to remove anything that is unfair, anything that could put someone in hospital. i cannot account for the rider an their horse on the day - that's your job, but you at least have to be able to rely on me doing mine and that means health and safety is up front and personal - and that includes vehicle movement, bikers with helmets, properly certified caterers - anything that could ruin someone's day and then maybe ruin mine too.

as i have posted earlier, it isn't 'however small' - there really is a point below which they are so damn small.

and is i indicated, a pile of 3 railway sleepers is like a heavy fat showjump - if you can move them at all, theyre going downhill! in fairness, 'not bothering' isn't really the right phrase. i bother deeply about everything.
 
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