Unhappy livery clients. What should I do?

OP would putting them all on track system work? Then you can leave the middle to look pretty and to be used by the non good doers as required. It will get wet and muddy in winter but at least only the edge gets trashed and only one gateway to stone.

I've either been on clay with good grass growth (not been fertilised in 20 odd years) but risking getting trashed in winter, or chalk with minimal grass growth, low soil depth, no way I could get them not to fertiliser or nothing much would grow. Each very different circumstance has required 2+ acres per horse (and I have good doer, who would be stripped'/tracked or muzzled as required at appropriate times of year but who overall needed just as much total).
 
It's your land so you must manage it as you see fit. However, you won't keep it looking all lush and pretty if you want to use it as a livery.
Laminitics can't go on fertilized grass it's asking for trouble.
I understand landowners point of view about not letting grass get too bare but bare is what lamintis needs!
Lush fertilized grass is very unsuitable for horses.
 
Ultimately it doesn't matter what any of us think. The truth of the matter is every one of us will have variations in how we like to keep our horses. Livery yards equally will all have variations in how they are set up and managed.

This will mean some livery yards are liveries are completely incompatible. Some are a match made in heaven whilst the majority are mostly compatible with the odd compromise made.

What YOU, and you alone need to do is work out what you are offering. What the hard boundaries of that offer/service is (e.g. Fertilising), what you can be flexible on etc.

Then you need to work out at what cost it is worth to you to meet those livery obligations and what cost it is easier just to loose the livery.

Then you communicate it. The liveries either choose to accept and stay or they can find somewhere else.

Don't be in a position where you feel intimidated on your own property.
 
I don’t think it unreasonable for liveries to raise and discuss issues with you and I don’t think it’s unreasonable if you listen and assess what is reasonable in your circumstances. Then you say what you can and are willing to do and what you can’t and how any changes might affect livery prices. That’s then the end of that discussion as far as you’re concerned. Then everyone knows where they stand and can make decisions on that basis.

It’s all very well saying get rid of the liveries but you may find yourself with liveries that don’t care about their horses or the land at all. I don’t really know anyone that would relish drowning in a foot of mud to get their horses in and out of a field. I would worry about laminitis too. At least they seem to know about and want to discuss things.

We have quarterly Yard meetings and where an issue is raised it’s discussed and resolved if possible. However there are clear lines drawn and some things can’t or won’t be accommodated and we have to acccept that.
 
Midlifecrisis said:
My YO would listen politely and ignore..basically runs the yard on a take it or leave it basis..you cant please all of the people all of the time.
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This is the approach I feel our YO would take too. They did recently ask us to sign contracts and did ask for improvement suggestions, which was nice of them, but you can't expect miracles of course
 
their demands are not unreasonable. Basically they want the gateways dug out and stoned which once done will be a permanent improvement. No fertiliser which will not cost anything but will in fact save money and no topping as presumably they are worried about their horses eating the decaying vegetation. Ii think it is a case that if your OH cannot accept that livery for horses is different from what cows etc require then maybe livery is not suitable in your situation.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
All you need to do is say, "this is the way we run our yard, if it isn't the way you want your horse to live, please feel free to find somewhere else for your horse. I will accept your notice whenever you like" You will find liveries who want what you offer but I would say yo need more than one acre per horse on clay.
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yes, this.

you can't poo pick fields, overgraze (and at an acre per horse I can't imagine its never overgrazed tbh) and never treat the grass-you will end up full of docks/clover/buttercup that way. strip grazing can knacker paddocks too. if their horse's are fat and lami-prone tell them to ride them more/find more suitable turnout/turn them out together on a bigger space and muzzle them. put your foot down :)
 
Sussexbythesea said:
I don’t think it unreasonable for liveries to raise and discuss issues with you and I don’t think it’s unreasonable if you listen and assess what is reasonable in your circumstances. Then you say what you can and are willing to do and what you can’t and how any changes might affect livery prices. That’s then the end of that discussion as far as you’re concerned. Then everyone knows where they stand and can make decisions on that basis.

It’s all very well saying get rid of the liveries but you may find yourself with liveries that don’t care about their horses or the land at all. I don’t really know anyone that would relish drowning in a foot of mud to get their horses in and out of a field. I would worry about laminitis too. At least they seem to know about and want to discuss things.

We have quarterly Yard meetings and where an issue is raised it’s discussed and resolved if possible. However there are clear lines drawn and some things can’t or won’t be accommodated and we have to acccept that.
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I agree with most of this, but from what the OP says these liveries have had a yard meeting without her and are now making her feel a bit intimidated, which is no way to move things forward.

Perhaps OP you and your husband could meet with the liveries and go over their concerns, your plans for the yard and land, and see what compromises could be reached.

I think the individual turn out/small turnout areas is probably not going to work long term, and having been a YO for many many years there is a fine balance between having liveries (who generally want an awful lot for not a lot) to help pay for your own horses, and having to put up with the hassle.
 
I never understand why people just can’t have adult conversations. Why does it have to always start as “my way or the highway?” That just leads to a high turn-over of people.
 
Rowreach said:
I agree with most of this, but from what the OP says these liveries have had a yard meeting without her and are now making her feel a bit intimidated, which is no way to move things forward
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If they are doing that deliberately I totally agree that’s not on but I wasn’t sure that it wasn’t just what the OP feels rather than what is actually happening? Ie she feels uncomfortable about not meeting all their requests so feels uneasy around them. Which of course she shouldn’t.
 
paddy555 said:
their demands are not unreasonable. Basically they want the gateways dug out and stoned which once done will be a permanent improvement. No fertiliser which will not cost anything but will in fact save money and no topping as presumably they are worried about their horses eating the decaying vegetation. Ii think it is a case that if your OH cannot accept that livery for horses is different from what cows etc require then maybe livery is not suitable in your situation.
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Digging out and stoning costs money, I know because I have spent £10,000 on drainage and hardcore, and we still have muddy gateways.
No fertilizer in the short term saves money, in the long term you loose your grass coverage and spend more money on sprays. I know because the previous owner did nothing, over grazed and I have spent £K in sprays and still have a healthy crop of ragwort and thistles. One years weed, seven years seed, but with ragwort it is more like 21.
Topping regularly, is never going to give decaying vegetation. They like to eat the new shoots that grow, and will leave dry stuff any way. I know because I do it, well the husband does.
People moan that livery is expense and limited, and this is why. Yes more farmers will not want horses, so you will have to pay more money for an even smaller acreage. Result.
 
I would definitely look at putting a track system in, keeps the horses moving all the time,you can still do the gateways.
I'm afraid you have to get tough being a livery yard owner!
 
Stoning the gateways would probably be a worthwhile investment. Why not get a load and ask the liveries to help spread it! But one reason my OH would never let me have any liveries is because he quite rightly says that our land is just not suitable for horses.

You can get "organic" slow release fertiliser, is there any advice about suitable blends on laminitis websites? I agree about having a track system for the laminitics, although if you are on clay that is going to get difficult in the winter as if it is anything like here, the ground gets very poached and churned up if wet.

I read about pasture management in one article that said have a sacrifice field to use in the winter, and then let it rest until it regrows. So instead of four fields being rotated, divide the area into five fields. Once grass is established it is quite amazing how it grows back from being churned up in the winter or being completely dry (and overgrazed) in the summer. You should see my paddock, but it does get a rest in the winter.
 
I might be misunderstanding the situation, but this is how I see it - 3 diy grass liveries with a stable, storage and 24/7 turnout if they want to. No services, no part livery/assisted livery involved so no extra's to be earnt. So probably £20/£30 a week each. Lets tot it up at the top end of £30 pw and you have a total of £4680 per annum, at the bottom end of £20 pw you have £3120.

Work out what it costs to run the place, fencing, water rates, electricity, land management, security, insurance and building management etc etc deduct from the income you get from your liveries who are making you feel inadequate, under pressure and unhappy.

All I see is a deficit and my view would be 'the gate is over there, find another muppet to provide 5 star accommodation for your ponies' There is no way you should be made to feel uncomfortable in your own home or be unable to enjoy your own horses on your own yard. Very sadly very few liveries will take pride in keeping the yard and premises tidy and actually appreciate what is there or even realise just what it takes to keep things safe, usable and pleasant.
 
Havent read all the replies but I would say you need to decide exactly what you are offering here. Is it a basic DIY yard, stable and field or a slightly "posher" establishment where you are charging a premium rate. If its the former, then Im afraid you need to tell them the cold hard facts, they are getting what they pay for, its the difference between the "value" range and the "finest" range isnt it! I dont think you will be able to make DIY turn a profit, you need to be offering services and charging more for them. If you are trying to run it as a business I think you need to give notice to this lot and advertise yourself as a full/assisted yard but be prepared to upgrade the facilities to appeal to those prepared to pay for them.
 
Do whatever suits you. *But* you must communicate this to liveries when they come to look round (I'm assuming the current lot will leave because it doesn't suit their horses). You need to tell people that the fields are fertilized and topped, that starvation patches are not allowed. You don't need any reason other than "this is how we choose to run our yard". If they ask for exceptions to be made to accommodate their good do-er/laminitis-prone horse you simply tell them there are no exceptions. That way they know that if they come to your yard with such a horse they will need to muzzle/stable/exercise it more. There are plenty of people who would like to livery at your set-up.
 
I am with the people questioning what you are supposed to be offering, and what is actually in the contract? You need to sit down and decide exactly what you are going to offer and tell the liveries that this is what is available. If your ground cannot handle 3 horses on daily winter turnout then you need to either restrict the turnout or reduce the number of horses. If you do not want the paddocks to be strip grazed then that needs to be in the contract, if your OH is going to top the fields regularly that needs to be in the contract. You must be able to go and do things around the yard without feeling as if you should not be there, so why not take the weekend to decide exactly what you are offering and get it put into a new contract, then head up, shoulders back and with a positive attitude march onto the yard, wish them good morning and get on and do whatever you need to do. If anything is said just tell them that you have listened to what they have said and will be issuing a new contract that will be valid from X date, if they do not like it they will be free to find somewhere more suited to their needs and that you will be happy to give them a reference if needed. Smile and do not be drawn into anything else until the contract is completed.
 
LincsLady22 said:
I run an extremely small livery yard. It is really my own personal stables with three liveries to provide a bit of income. They have recently called a yard meeting with me because they are unhappy about certain aspects. They come from big comptetiotion yards, despite being just happy hackers themselves. Anyway some of the things they are asking for are things either beyond my control, or budget. Such as drainage stone putting in the poached gateways because it may pull their horses shoes off. We have clay soil and each horse is one once acre each, however the liveries all section their paddocks off much smaller and slowly strip graze. Two of the liveries horses go in together, so they strip graze one of their fields at a time. There sometimes is water accumulating on the surface of the field too. It used to be a flood risk area hence why the previous land owner went bankrupt, but since my father in law bought the land, he put extensive underground drainage in. But it still does gather some water. One of the liveries has a laminitic horse and doesn’t like us fertilising their paddock once a year. But we feel this is necessary, as we didn’t do it last year and her paddock suffered. Also because it is such a new crop of grass (only sewn two years ago), the grass is still rather sparse. Hence why we feel the need to also top it once a year, which they don’t like us doing either. A starvation paddock of there’s was becoming extremely poached as it had two horses on such a small area (one of which has never had laminitis) and I asked them to make the section a little bigger and I was accused of caring more about the land than a horses metabolic needs. This is not true, I am a horse lover through and through and would never ask anyone to do something with their horse to put it at risk. My own horse has cushings, so I have to limit his sugar intake. Are these reasonable requests, or should I stand firm and say no to them? We don’t have a big budget as I am a stay at home Mum and my partner works for a small wage on his dad’s Farm (his dad has loaned us the field so I had somewhere to keep my horse and do a little livery business). I really want to be fair and not unreasonable, but I feel I can’t possibly meet their expectations and I’m worried they’ll leave. I’m also scared to go down my own yard as I feel it’s them against me. Please Can I have some advice?
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Let me give you my view:

Firstly the laminitic horse - we did not fertilise our fields this year due to financial (first year not doing it) For this livery I would agree not to fertilise the field- yes the field will suffer but at the end of the day welfare is important for this individual and your grass would recover eventually.

Drainage stone - well this is a bit ott as they accepted the yard as was, and they cannot expect you to spend this money out due to if they were to leave you would have spent money + this drainage stone if the same as ours was( reddish type) eventually sinks down in the mud under feet and vehicles to the point you never know it was there.




To add no we used road stone in our gateways not drainage stone.


Sounds to me like they want top service at budget price, i would yealed to the lami horse but explain to the others it is no financially viable to put the drainage stone in and if they want a better service then this place is not for them.
 
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I would consider the gateways a must . I have seen how bad a gateway on clay soil can get . It is simply ,dangerous . I would not like to be the yard owner if a livery (on any form of livery) got hurt because of a bad gateway.Putting stone down is easy and cheap enough ,just remember to put some terram underneath it. As for fertiliser . There is fertiliser to promote growth ,and fertiliser to promote healthy grass . I would want to lime the clay soil rather than the ubiquitous 20.10,10. I recommend low nitrogen but it is important to keep up the potassium and phosphorous levels .Fortunately this requires little effort on a clay soil. Liming improves drainage as well .
 
Sugar_and_Spice said:
Do whatever suits you. *But* you must communicate this to liveries when they come to look round (I'm assuming the current lot will leave because it doesn't suit their horses). You need to tell people that the fields are fertilized and topped, that starvation patches are not allowed. You don't need any reason other than "this is how we choose to run our yard". If they ask for exceptions to be made to accommodate their good do-er/laminitis-prone horse you simply tell them there are no exceptions. That way they know that if they come to your yard with such a horse they will need to muzzle/stable/exercise it more. There are plenty of people who would like to livery at your set-up.
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This!
My yard is far from perfect, but I get what I agreed to when I moved there. I can think of loads of demands I would love to make but I wouldn’t, if it made me unhappy enough I would leave and compromise somewhere else. Sounds to me as if they have thought they have weight in numbers and that’s why they have had their “meeting” with you. I also agree with the person who said u need to toughen up a little.. you aren’t their friends and you don’t need to be
FWIW you sound like a lovely livery yard owner so don’t be afraid of losing them, I’m sure u will get other liveries in their place. Good luck
 
I definitely agree with those saying put down how you intend to manage your fields in contracts. My previous yard did not allow strip grazing for instance and I know a few who dont because of the potential damage or just because it looks scruffy!
 
If the gate ways are already terrible (I am on clay next to a river! and it has started to get slippy but not deep- horses through same gate way am &pm) then it suggests to me the horses are hanging around the gate way? there for the liveries may need to be told its too wet to strip graze (except the laminitic pony) they are your fields.
personally this year I did a track system until last month as it was getting too poached. the more space the better in the winter. then trackback up in the spring. especially now the rain and cold is setting in.

Proper hard core may work but is expensive, and I tend to find they then poach the grass next to it more and the area just spreads and you start losing more field
 
ester said:
I definitely agree with those saying put down how you intend to manage your fields in contracts. My previous yard did not allow strip grazing for instance and I know a few who dont because of the potential damage or just because it looks scruffy!
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Same with mine. Hes very clear that its herd turnout unless there is a really good reason why not, ie we have 2 very old, frail cushingoid ponies that have a sectioned off corner of the field, but they arent out 24/7, its more of a leg stretch pen than actual grazing.
 
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