Unhappy/ uncomfortable pony

[Timelyattraction]

Hi , i have a 12hh welsh pony i backed last year. The first couple of months were really good but as i started asking her to do more she developed a rearing habit. This first started when i would be schooling her in field she’d kind of nap/spin and do small rears but then progressed to as soon as i mounted her she would go up a few times (these were big rears) and then the majority of the time she would carry on and be fine. I ended with a good ride October time and gave her a winter break hoping it would help.
I re started her February time (started with all the groundwork again, lunging/long reining), did this for about 3 weeks and thought she was ready to get on. I managed to get through about 3 weeks of riding without a single rear. Then about a week ago she started backing up as i got on her and threatening, then the next time i got on her as soon as i asked her to was forward she did a couple of rears/ mini bronc and carried on and was fine the rest of the ride. Tonight i schooled her, i gave her a lunge first then got on. She was going really nicely and then i did a change or rein across the diagonal, she spun reared and bronced. I sat through it and carried on schooling her, she was unhappy with ears back but didnt do it again. She was more forward going today but usually she is very backwards/unhappy in canter. Shes similar on the lunge too , often throwing a buck in when transitioning up to canter although doesnt do this under saddle.

shes had her saddle fit, dentist is coming out this week but she was done last june which wasnt long before she started this so dont think its teeth. She also had physio last year when in work and again nothing was sore/ tight.

i have the vet coming out tuesday to scope for ulcers(i know this can be secondary to something else going on), and do a trot up & lunge on the hard to see if theres any signs of lameness, not that i have noticed anything.

if nothing comes from this i will obviously go down the xray route. Any one have any thoughts on what may be wrong with her maybe hocks/ stifle issues im thinking but i dont really know

 

[The Xmas Furry]

Is this the same one that you posted about in March last year? Or a different pony?

 

[Timelyattraction]

Is this the same one that you posted about in March last year? Or a different pony?

No sorry that was a different horse who is doing very well now x

 

[Chuffy99]

Are you a very small adult? Just wondering if she finds working in the school very hard work, does she still do it out hacking?

 

[Timelyattraction]

Are you a very small adult? Just wondering if she finds working in the school very hard work, does she still do it out hacking?

Yes small adult, im 5ft2 she doesnt do it out hacking but does do it as soon as i get on her on the yard before we set off on a hack

i have teenage girl coming to try her who would share her 2-3 times a week so i dont have to ride her so much, but obviously i am reluctant for any child to get on her incase she rears with them

 

[Timelyattraction]

Yes small adult, im 5ft2 she doesnt do it out hacking but does do it as soon as i get on her on the yard before we set off on a hack

i have teenage girl coming to try her who would share her 2-3 times a week so i dont have to ride her so much, but obviously i am reluctant for any child to get on her incase she rears with them

Saying that she has tried it on the start of a hack ,about 2 weeks ago ,going up the drive way away from the yard but she may have thought she was riding up to the field to school in there so not sure

 

[Chuffy99]

Do you get on in the same place to go in the school and hack? I would imagine getting a saddle to fit both of you is difficult but you’ve said she’s had the fitter out, did she see you riding?

 

[Timelyattraction]

Do you get on in the same place to go in the school and hack? I would imagine getting a saddle to fit both of you is difficult but you’ve said she’s had the fitter out, did she see you riding?

Shes in a 15.5” saddle which is a good length on her and i am small so i do find it is comfortable for me too. Yes saddle fitter saw me on her in the saddle. I think i am going to book her in again for peace of mind anyway. If i ride in the field/hack i get on the same place on the yard. If I ride in the school i get on in there and actually she hasnt ever reared up on mounting when ive got on in the school. She does tail swish a lot (on the lunge with no rider aswell) so probably is pain related somewhere

 

[Zoeypxo]

Sounds like a vet job .
How old is she?
Mine used to rear alot which got progressively worse until we found problems with her spine, hocks and ulcers. All sorted now but took a while to get to the bottom of everything. Id be querying ovaries too

 

[Timelyattraction]

Sounds like a vet job .
How old is she?
Mine used to rear alot which got progressively worse until we found problems with her spine, hocks and ulcers. All sorted now but took a while to get to the bottom of everything. Id be querying ovaries too

She’s 5 this year. I suppose xrays would show any problems with spine/hocks? I can push firm and run my hand along her back and she has no negative response to that so i thought it probably isnt a back issue.

 

[sbloom]

Get the team (saddle fitter, vet, trainer etc) taking to each other ideally with a visit at the same time, or at least sharing information. if each on their own says it's not X causing the issue then you're stuck, if they work together they're more likely to get there.

 

[SEL]

Shes in a 15.5” saddle which is a good length on her and i am small so i do find it is comfortable for me too. Yes saddle fitter saw me on her in the saddle. I think i am going to book her in again for peace of mind anyway. If i ride in the field/hack i get on the same place on the yard. If I ride in the school i get on in there and actually she hasnt ever reared up on mounting when ive got on in the school. She does tail swish a lot (on the lunge with no rider aswell) so probably is pain related somewhere

I'm an inch taller but 16" is only just ok for me and that's for a pony who is a light hack. Not all saddlers are comfortable saying our bums are too big so get a friend to take a photo and be honest. It might just be putting your weight a bit too far back for her comfort.

 

[Palindrome]

I would try another saddle. My 4 years old reared up 3 times hacking (once she reared vertically and fell over), I put it to her being young and nappy. I took it back to basics with a new saddle and she is still nappy but her front legs haven't left the ground once and it has been a year now. The previous saddle was an Albion while the new one is only a Thorowgood but she likes the Thorowgood better.
I would also look if weight wise you are may be on the edge of what she can carry, are you well within the 20% of her ideal weight with tack included?

 

[Timelyattraction]

I would try another saddle. My 4 years old reared up 3 times hacking (once she reared vertically and fell over), I put it to her being young and nappy. I took it back to basics with a new saddle and she is still nappy but her front legs haven't left the ground once and it has been a year now. The previous saddle was an Albion while the new one is only a Thorowgood but she likes the Thorowgood better.
I would also look if weight wise you are may be on the edge of what she can carry, are you well within the 20% of her ideal weight with tack included?

She was originally in a thorowgood when i backed her then got the saddler out who recommended a kent and masters pony saddle as shes very flat & wide backed (like a table top ) so i bought that and had it fitted to her. Will see if i can get a picture. I will contact the saddle fitter tomorrow and arrange to get her back out but its usually a 4-6 week wait

 

[maya2008]

Something hurts for sure. Can you not find a child to ride after pony has been checked over? Welshies don’t weigh that much themselves, when not overweight, so don’t actually have a massive carrying capacity.

- 12hh Welsh A - 225kg (my slim ones) to 250kg (mature, ribs easily felt but more solid muscle-wise).
- Saddle: 5lb (my 15” Thorowgood weighs that without stirrups).
- Boots and coat and hat = 8lb at least (husband is trying to lose weight to get back on his cob so I have recently weighed all these things!!).
- Rider.

On a mature horse you can expect more, but a young one building muscle should really be closer to 15% (at most 20%) of their IDEAL weight, not including any extra padding, for short rides less often.

20% is 7 stone 11lb. Take off the boots, coat, hat, saddle and you need to weigh 6 stone 12 in your normal clothes.

15% is just under 6 stone. So that’s 5 stone 1 for just you.

You can muscle up a stocky adult pony to take more for short rides, but it’s not ideal long-term.

I would also get a second opinion on the saddle length. Most of the ones I have known only took 15” max.

I categorically will not get on my kids’ ponies - I am an adult, I may be slim but I am not a child, I am too tall and too heavy. I have a 13hh NF and I am beyond paranoid about my weight. She’s an adult, well muscled and weighs 360kg. I am 9 stone. Add another stone for tack, boots, coat, hat and that’s 10 stone (63kg). 20% for her is 72kg so I have a little leeway, but she wants to jump and so going up to the full 20% isn’t really an option!

 

[Timelyattraction]

Something hurts for sure. Can you not find a child to ride after pony has been checked over? Welshies don’t weigh that much themselves, when not overweight, so don’t actually have a massive carrying capacity.

- 12hh Welsh A - 225kg (my slim ones) to 250kg (mature, ribs easily felt but more solid muscle-wise).
- Saddle: 5lb (my 15” Thorowgood weighs that without stirrups).
- Boots and coat and hat = 8lb at least (husband is trying to lose weight to get back on his cob so I have recently weighed all these things!!).
- Rider.

On a mature horse you can expect more, but a young one building muscle should really be closer to 15% (at most 20%) of their IDEAL weight, not including any extra padding, for short rides less often.

20% is 7 stone 11lb. Take off the boots, coat, hat, saddle and you need to weigh 6 stone 12 in your normal clothes.

15% is just under 6 stone. So that’s 5 stone 1 for just you.

You can muscle up a stocky adult pony to take more for short rides, but it’s not ideal long-term.

I would also get a second opinion on the saddle length. Most of the ones I have known only took 15” max.

I categorically will not get on my kids’ ponies - I am an adult, I may be slim but I am not a child, I am too tall and too heavy. I have a 13hh NF and I am beyond paranoid about my weight. She’s an adult, well muscled and weighs 360kg. I am 9 stone. Add another stone for tack, boots, coat, hat and that’s 10 stone (63kg). 20% for her is 72kg so I have a little leeway, but she wants to jump and so going up to the full 20% isn’t really an option!

Perhaps reading this i am a bit too heavy and thats why she isnt happy, but also the relucantacy on the lunge and tail swishing when i ask her to go forwards make me think maybe ulcers too- maybe this could have stemmed from her being unhappy carrying me?
i have a girl coming today to try her she weighs 6 stone so within the weight limits you said although she is taller than me at 5ft5 - what do you think? Will see how she gets on with her today, will carry on with the vet on Tuesday and dentist on Thursday to see if anything flags up. Will also contact the saddler tomorrow and get her booked in asap to check that over. And go from there i suppose?!

 

[Timelyattraction]

P.s the plan was never for me to ride her long term.i bought her for my 4 year old daughter to ride. So the plan was just for me to back and ride her away. Shes on lead rein and was riding her in the inky dinky saddle well. I took her off that and put her into the kent and masters and she slipped off the side trotting so has now lost all confidence and i can literally just get her to sit on her so we have a long road ahead with that one. Her schooling is now at a level now i am happy with so having a smaller rider take over the reins now is what i was looking to do.

 

[sbloom]

She was originally in a thorowgood when i backed her then got the saddler out who recommended a kent and masters pony saddle as shes very flat & wide backed (like a table top ) so i bought that and had it fitted to her. Will see if i can get a picture. I will contact the saddle fitter tomorrow and arrange to get her back out but its usually a 4-6 week wait

They're likely to be very similar saddles, the pony saddles are, afaik, basically the same.

Rider height versus weight - it entirely depends, a tall rider with tight hips on a wide pony can be a disaster, their weight will end up on the back of the saddle. A heavier shorter rider, with a sheepskin or other shock absorbing pad, can be better, but it's very individual.

If it's saddle then it's clearly made her sore if she's bucking with no saddle on, but it's why I recommend getting people talking to each other, yields rewards beyond them all working individually though it may cost more or take longer or both.

 

[BBP]

Perhaps reading this i am a bit too heavy and thats why she isnt happy, but also the relucantacy on the lunge and tail swishing when i ask her to go forwards make me think maybe ulcers too- maybe this could have stemmed from her being unhappy carrying me?
i have a girl coming today to try her she weighs 6 stone so within the weight limits you said although she is taller than me at 5ft5 - what do you think? Will see how she gets on with her today, will carry on with the vet on Tuesday and dentist on Thursday to see if anything flags up. Will also contact the saddler tomorrow and get her booked in asap to check that over. And go from there i suppose?!

I’d be cancelling the girl today and not have anyone sit on this pony til you have had a full workup and covered every base. The pony is screaming at you that something is wrong, you’d hate for someone to get injured. I’d be going back and back and back with the training too. Is she good to catch or does she give the side eye and raise her head when haltered? If she does the latter I’d be starting all the way back there. When she stands tied up is she soft and relaxed over her back or does she brace or shuffle. I’d want the former. When you bring tack out does she brace, put ears back or step away? I’d want her to stand softly for that. When approaching the mounting block does she move away or stand politely? Until all of those foundations are done politely and with relaxation I wouldn’t even be attempting to get on as it shows either gaps in fundamentals or pain/anxiety.

I’ve realised over the years I have placed too much thought on what is happening and not enough on the why and how. As in why have they braced their neck and how are they feeling about the question I have just asked them. And that means I have ignore the tiny little signs that they give before they start shouting.

 

[sbloom]

Yes agreed, horses are always telling us (look up the pain ethogram) when there are issues, we need to get better at understanding them. And this pony should not be ridden until it's been seen, agreed again.

 

[Timelyattraction]

I’d be cancelling the girl today and not have anyone sit on this pony til you have had a full workup and covered every base. The pony is screaming at you that something is wrong, you’d hate for someone to get injured. I’d be going back and back and back with the training too. Is she good to catch or does she give the side eye and raise her head when haltered? If she does the latter I’d be starting all the way back there. When she stands tied up is she soft and relaxed over her back or does she brace or shuffle. I’d want the former. When you bring tack out does she brace, put ears back or step away? I’d want her to stand softly for that. When approaching the mounting block does she move away or stand politely? Until all of those foundations are done politely and with relaxation I wouldn’t even be attempting to get on as it shows either gaps in fundamentals or pain/anxiety.

I’ve realised over the years I have placed too much thought on what is happening and not enough on the why and how. As in why have they braved their neck and how are they feeling about the question I have just asked them. And that means I have ignore the tiny little signs that they give before they start shouting.

Comes up to be caught, stands tied up lovely. Good to bridle, can sometimes move when the saddle goes on. Stands still to mount aswell.

 

[Timelyattraction]

Yes agreed, horses are always telling us (look up the pain ethogram) when there are issues, we need to get better at understanding them. And this pony should not be ridden until it's been seen, agreed again.

Will cancel today postpone till poss next weekend. Also i see you are in suffolk, i am Cambridgeshire- do you travel here for saddle fittings?!

 

[sbloom]

Absolutely, you're very local (I travel to Scotland and Ireland!) but I'm afraid I'm very much a specialist and only work with two brands, sorry!

 

[Timelyattraction]

Absolutely, you're very local (I travel to Scotland and Ireland!) but I'm afraid I'm very much a specialist and only work with two brands, sorry!

Ohh okaywill contact poppy then and see what she can do.

 

[Timelyattraction]

Absolutely, you're very local (I travel to Scotland and Ireland!) but I'm afraid I'm very much a specialist and only work with two brands, sorry!

Also what would you say i do for the saddle fitting? As i dont want to get on her anymore. As it will be a weekday i will struggle to get a child to ride her for it?

 

[Palindrome]

The job of a lead rein pony is very different to a pony ridden by an adult or a teenager. Has she ever reared in the dinky saddle?
I'd just give her a break, take her back to that and have a helper to make sure someone can hold the child in case she showed signs of wanting to rear. When I backed mine for lead rein, I would give her a bucket feed and seat a child on her back while she was eating, sounds like your daughter would be happy with that. I then progressed to little walks out with treats in my pocket and I would give a treat for standing nicely when a tractor passed or whatever nice thing the pony was doing.
You can always break the pony to drive for extra exercise later on.

 

[sbloom]

Also what would you say i do for the saddle fitting? As i dont want to get on her anymore. As it will be a weekday i will struggle to get a child to ride her for it?

Postpone, a non ridden fitting, with a pony who may need time off, and could change shape, a static fitting is a complete waste of time imo unless you know the fitter is invested in holistic type work and might be able to signpost you, even then I'd get at least a bodyworker if not a vet involved.

 

[sbloom]

Just an extra note, saddle fitting for children is really challenging for saddle fitters. Most of us work some weekends but we try and have some weekends off, so I would recommend everyone have scheduled fittings for the holidays, maybe 3 a year. It really is worth it to have regular eyes on the saddle at a time when you know you can have the rider there. Same applies to teachers.

 

[maya2008]

Yes definitely vet and dentist. I would then look at getting her going in long-reins with the inky dinky on once she’s no longer sore. When she’s happy on the lead with and without a child, get the treed saddle looked at. The size of child you want on your pony will be swimming in a 15.5” saddle, so if it doesn’t fit, I would go for something slightly smaller. We have a Welsh pony (12hh) who takes a 15” saddle, but my son prefers smaller - and he’s only got another year left on that pony before he’ll be too big.

You can do a TON of work on long reins (all the schooling…)and you can lead out from another horse/in-hand for education about life. The only thing you cannot teach, either ridden by a larger rider or on long-reins, is not to take the mickey out of a small rider. You need a competent small person to do that.

When my kids had tumbles early on, we went for walks with pony. Their choice to walk, but if they got tired, they could ride. That soon got them up on the pony again!!

 

[sbloom]

The hazards of trying to fit the adult and child into the same saddle - most customers want that outcome of course, cheaper than two saddles. However sometimes it's pretty much impossible, other times there's a big compromise, and the fitter will do everything they can to ensure the pony isn't the one to compromise.