Unlicensed stallions and overbreeding.

[hayleyanderson]

I am writing a report for my English Language course about unlicensed stallions and overbreeding within the equestrian world. I would greatly appreciate any opinions, views and experiences you may have on this matter. I have messaged a couple of studs and a few horse charities. I look forward to reading your responses and thank you for your time!

 

[Alec Swan]

Those with whom you've already broached the subject will answer you, but as your questions affect them, and are unlikely to consider the bigger picture.

Considering the question itself would raise another question, and that's one of our freedom of choice, and should we be burdened with further legislation?

Alec.

 

[TallulahBean]

Not to forget either that some of the best foundation stallions in recent history were not graded when originally presented. Slapdash breeding is not necessarily down to ungraded stallions.

 

[hayleyanderson]

I shall reconsider my phrasing, thanks for your time and feedback

 

[Orangehorse]

A stallion does not need to be Licenced. Years ago any stallion at stud had to be inspected by a MAFF vet (shows how long ago it was) and approved as suitable for breeding, so it had to be a certain standard regardless of whether or not it met the breed standard. That requirement was done away as the Government thought that breeding would be regulated by breed societies.

I personally think this was a bad mistake, and did lead to breeding of sub-standard animals. That is why the best societies have grading for stallions. Since not all of them "pass" what happens to the others?
Not all breed societies do stallion grading either.

Why do people go to the continent for horses? Because they have had years of regulated breeding and breed true to type. I think I am right in saying that any stallion standing at stud in Germany has to undergo grading.

There was a big fashion for show jumping stallions a few years ago, but BS stamped down on this by making the registration fees for stallions very high, so it meant that only really serious owners with a stallion that has good breeding and competition record can compete. Virtually any horse has "good blood lines" but it doesn't mean that they are a good representation of the breed or suitable for passing on their genes.

I don't think it is a good idea to have numerous random stallions around the place. There are always going to be "accidents" or people just going to the nearest stallion down the road regardless of what it is like.

 

[Equi]

I personally would not breed to a stallion with no pedigree/breeding history. The stallion i have chosen is for very specific reasons but if he wasn't recorded i wouldn't go there. I want papers i want a paper trail. I don't want to have a foal who cant be registered and just another "nothing" horse. And before anyone gets on me about that comment, i show minis so a few classes require breeding, im not talking at all about large horses. I have one rescue large horse and he has no record at all but is the best horse i have ever had. So i think what i am saying, is that it depends what you want it for. I would not want the pressure of having a highly named riding horse, cause i can't ride very well i just potter about.

 

[Lgd]

Mine is unlicensed/ungraded but that is only because he isn't ready for grading yet - he'll be going probably next year if I feel he is mature enough AND he is performing under saddle as I would wish. If he fails at any stage he will be gelded.
I only breed from graded stock with a performance record. My vet thought I was mad to geld my then 7 month old colt as he was physically and temperamentally stallion material but due to his grandsire's Russian papers and the BHD going defunct I can't get the information for a 3 generation pedigree (and neither can two other stud books who have tried for me!) so immediately he is not gradeable with any reputable studbook.

Responsible breeders will do the same as me and only use graded stock. They will jump through hoops necessary if national licensing is introduced. Those who don't passport their stock will continue to breed willy nilly despite any legislation because like the passport system nobody will enforce it effectively.

 

[Rollin]

Mine is unlicensed/ungraded but that is only because he isn't ready for grading yet - he'll be going probably next year if I feel he is mature enough AND he is performing under saddle as I would wish. If he fails at any stage he will be gelded.
I only breed from graded stock with a performance record. My vet thought I was mad to geld my then 7 month old colt as he was physically and temperamentally stallion material but due to his grandsire's Russian papers and the BHD going defunct I can't get the information for a 3 generation pedigree (and neither can two other stud books who have tried for me!) so immediately he is not gradeable with any reputable studbook.

Responsible breeders will do the same as me and only use graded stock. They will jump through hoops necessary if national licensing is introduced. Those who don't passport their stock will continue to breed willy nilly despite any legislation because like the passport system nobody will enforce it effectively.

Then I must be a very irresponsible breeder. My licensed CB stallion has been QA approved by my breed society.

He will never grade - because after he was backed we discovered he had old badly healed fractures, missed by 5 vets both in France and UK. He could never pass a grading which requires x-rays and ridden dressage and or jumping. He is greatly admired by everyone who meets him and produces quality foals.

With only 500 CB's left in the world and pure bred registrations running at 20-25 per annum why would I NOT breed from this super horse?

What is a Performance Record?

We were invited to put our young Shagya stallion forward for grading in France. He was three and we were told that there would not be another grading for two years. Out of the 13 stallions forward only three were approved, by a team of International Judges. His was one of the three and his approval subject to performance which included 90kms endurance at the age of 6.

Here is the problem. He was not allowed to compete at 60kms aged 5 as 'too young' but at the age of 6 he must do 2x60kms and 3x90kms. In Germany he would only need to do 2x90kms at the age of 7 for the SAME STUD BOOK A. So a German Shagya which does less is a better horse than mine?

How has this come about? Because the French rules say a stallion must 'perform' with 3 years of grading. Following our complaint Shagya France will no longer grade stallions at the age of 3.

The SF Championships in France are for 3 year old horses. As well as presentation in hand, loose jumping they have to give a ridden display under saddle which includes jumping.

Having watched this, I for one am not a fan of modern stallion grading and performance testing.

If you have a state owned National Stud and breed thousands, you can afford to throw away those horses which are slow to mature regardless of their other attributes.

I am pleased that the UK still bans 3 year olds from ridden competition.

 

[Pendragon]

Serious breeding is about selection and thinking in generations - the goal is a healthy horse that can perform. Fullstop!

 

[Oscar]

You can use the best bred, graded stallion but if you put any old mare that has not proved herself then you're just breeding rubbish. And the stallion gets the blame!!

I had a beautiful mare, good breeding and great conformation, however she was a baggage to ride and would flip herself over!! I could have sold her or used her as a broodmare but there was obviously a pain issue & weakness in her back that may have been passed on. We made the horrible decision to have her pts as she had no job to do. Sadly others do not think like we do and risk it and put the mare in foal, so when it's tricky the stallion gets blamed!!

 

[LEC]

My experience recently was visiting a horse meat farm in the UK. It did not shock me as they were kept like beef cows and all seemed happy enough. Most of them were grotty gypsy cob rubbish and realistically were going to end up on a plate in Belgium. Even though they are effectively worthless the mares were all in foal. I saw no value in putting all the mares in foal and was not sure why it was being done.
Gypsy cobs are currently going through the markets for about £5. I think this is where the real issue is in the UK and the ones who are the welfare cases.

On a different matter - I am looking to buy a horse at the moment and have spent hours looking at videos and pictures. I have a very poor budget which I accept but the dreadful conformation of so many horses is a real concern. I know there is always a funny looking horse who bucks the trend and wins big time but on the whole the majority of these horses especially with terrible hind limbs are not really going to have a long term future?

 

[Rollin]

My experience recently was visiting a horse meat farm in the UK. It did not shock me as they were kept like beef cows and all seemed happy enough. Most of them were grotty gypsy cob rubbish and realistically were going to end up on a plate in Belgium. Even though they are effectively worthless the mares were all in foal. I saw no value in putting all the mares in foal and was not sure why it was being done.
Gypsy cobs are currently going through the markets for about £5. I think this is where the real issue is in the UK and the ones who are the welfare cases.

On a different matter - I am looking to buy a horse at the moment and have spent hours looking at videos and pictures. I have a very poor budget which I accept but the dreadful conformation of so many horses is a real concern. I know there is always a funny looking horse who bucks the trend and wins big time but on the whole the majority of these horses especially with terrible hind limbs are not really going to have a long term future?

In spite of the fact that neither of my stallions has been graded in terms of SJ etc, one because of injuries and the other because he is still too young, the QA and approval process is based on conformation, quality of movement and temperament which both have. Plus of course great pedigrees.

I don't agree with a previous post that breeders in mainland Europe breed 'true to type'. If you visit the Cadre Noir at Saumur you will see dozens of SF. The comment made by my English friends, is that they are all different. Some look like Norman Cobs and others like AA.

Whereas when my French vet comes to vaccinate my CB's she will say, 'I have done this one.' 'No' I reply, 'you did that one'.

Closed stud books breed true to type and in the case of the Shagya no horse mare or stallion goes into the stud book unless it has been inspected for quality and breed standard.

I was told that CB's have poor hocks, so I always have them x-rayed and am still looking for one which is 'poor'.

 

[sallyf]

My experience recently was visiting a horse meat farm in the UK. It did not shock me as they were kept like beef cows and all seemed happy enough. Most of them were grotty gypsy cob rubbish and realistically were going to end up on a plate in Belgium. Even though they are effectively worthless the mares were all in foal. I saw no value in putting all the mares in foal and was not sure why it was being done.
Gypsy cobs are currently going through the markets for about £5. I think this is where the real issue is in the UK and the ones who are the welfare cases.

On a different matter - I am looking to buy a horse at the moment and have spent hours looking at videos and pictures. I have a very poor budget which I accept but the dreadful conformation of so many horses is a real concern. I know there is always a funny looking horse who bucks the trend and wins big time but on the whole the majority of these horses especially with terrible hind limbs are not really going to have a long term future?

From the other side I have a stunning looking mare with absolutely correct conformation who I will probably decide to keep because people only want to pay peanuts for horses at the moment

 

[Kaylum]

The problem is stallion owners are not selective when it comes to mares. You phone up, you book your place, you turn up mare gets covered end of. They don't care they want stud fees. Whereas the responsible breeders want to see the mare first. As it should be.

 

[Rollin]

Kaylum you make a good point. It would however follow that breeders would sell youngstock if the price were right.

I have already turned down two good offers for a four year old filly.

Some of us do care about the outcome. We are not all devoted to the concept of 'never mind the quality feel the width'.

 

[Kaylum]

Rollin I totally agree, we were breeding pure bred IDs 20 years ago. They were getting the same price then as breeders are selling them for today.but everything has gone up so stallion owners need to make money on the coverings I guess.

 

[Rollin]

Rollin I totally agree, we were breeding pure bred IDs 20 years ago. They were getting the same price then as breeders are selling them for today.but everything has gone up so stallion owners need to make money on the coverings I guess.

Is this all a sad reflection of our enthusiasm for importing warmbloods. Two friends ( a bit older than me) reflect that in the days of the Hunter Improvement Society, a good yearling CB could fetch as much as 9,000 guineas. The Ramblers stud had a waiting list for foals.

Actually there is one breeder in the USA today who has Cleveland foals purchased before they are born regardless of sex.

Overbreeding has created a real problem for Rare breeds.

 

[micramadam]

We have a rising 4 yo warmblood stallion who is not graded but he is also not intended as a stud. We did consider sending him to the grading last year and had a place sorted for him at a stud who specifically worked with young stallions to make them grading ready. He would have gone to them in the October of 2012 and stayed there till after the grading in February. That was until we saw the training programme for him. I immediately cancelled everything as it was far too much for a young horse and honestly I was disgusted!
If he proves himself in the dressage arena, then all well and good and who knows, he may be like Totilas and Utopia who were initially rejected at the grading and then later accepted because of their abilities.
I also maybe biased, but I think he is a very good looking animal. If you want to see some recent photos/video of him, look up the last posts by my daughter Four Seasons on here.

 

[Rollin]

micramadam... Good for you. I wish you every success.

 

[Spring Feather]

In any situation of over breeding, perceived or not, licensed stallions or not; if there is a market for these horses then the people breeding continue to do so. If the market dried up then they would no longer breed. My take on the UKs problem is that so many people are breeding coloured cob horses BUT there appears to be a huge market for this type of horse so people keep breeding them. I have to say though that, for me, the numbers just don't add up. Selling these types of horses for a few hundred quid as youngsters and then their top price as mature horses being so low I can't see that anyone makes any money on them at all, but I guess there's a lot of people who are rubbish at accountancy. I would not breed if I was not getting the thousands I get for my foals, it just wouldn't be worth my time.

 

[Capriole]

Selling these types of horses for a few hundred quid as youngsters and then their top price as mature horses being so low I can't see that anyone makes any money on them at all, but I guess there's a lot of people who are rubbish at accountancy. I would not breed if I was not getting the thousands I get for my foals, it just wouldn't be worth my time.

Jaysus, I was chatting to a man the other week who was trying to sell me a young coloured cob, not my thing but I said I'd keep my ears open if anyone I know is looking and how much would he be looking at. Man starts shuffling and twitching and doing that indrawn whistle thing, lol, and says, 'well with the prices being as good as they were at such and such an auction the other week, I really should have taken her there...I'd be looking for as much as £200! (checks to see if I wince) or even £250!
I'm like bloody hell it cost me more than that to transport mine to stud. Mind you his costs are lower as he fly grazes and cuts so many corners. But it's really not worth the bother at these low hundreds prices, at all.

 

[Spring Feather]

Jaysus, I was chatting to a man the other week who was trying to sell me a young coloured cob, not my thing but I said I'd keep my ears open if anyone I know is looking and how much would he be looking at. Man starts shuffling and twitching and doing that indrawn whistle thing, lol, and says, 'well with the prices being as good as they were at such and such an auction the other week, I really should have taken her there...I'd be looking for as much as £200! (checks to see if I wince) or even £250!
I'm like bloody hell it cost me more than that to transport mine to stud. Mind you his costs are lower as he fly grazes and cuts so many corners. But it's really not worth the bother at these low hundreds prices, at all.

I know, it's a different world. Even if there were no stud costs, you still have to keep the mare for 18 months. Even if he's not feeding any hard feed, he's still having to rent land (or put in the cost of buying it in the first place), buying hay over winter, worming and farriery for the 18 months. I honestly don't think some people see 'hidden costs'; no costs are hidden to me which is why I ask a price for my youngsters that well and truly covers everything, and leaves me with a profit good enough to continue breeding.

 

[Capriole]

Mind you his costs are lower as he fly grazes and cuts so many corners. But it's really not worth the bother at these low hundreds prices, at all.

I know, it's a different world. Even if there were no stud costs, you still have to keep the mare for 18 months. Even if he's not feeding any hard feed, he's still having to rent land (or put in the cost of buying it in the first place), buying hay over winter, worming and farriery for the 18 months. I honestly don't think some people see 'hidden costs'; no costs are hidden to me which is why I ask a price for my youngsters that well and truly covers everything, and leaves me with a profit good enough to continue breeding.

He's fly grazing so he's not got those costs, he does feed and hay them actually quite well, but his farriery leaves something to be desired and he's using an unregistered farrier. Vet would be a rare sight, he get the impression her thinks I'm a muggle for getting the vet out as I do, lol! But even so, all that work for £200/250, no chance.

 

[Spring Feather]

He's fly grazing so he's not got those costs, he does feed and hay them actually quite well, but his farriery leaves something to be desired and he's using an unregistered farrier. Vet would be a rare sight, he get the impression her thinks I'm a muggle for getting the vet out as I do, lol! But even so, all that work for £200/250, no chance.

Oops sorry, didn't really understand the fly grazing reference. I do now :smile3: But as you say, still not worth doing though.

 

[cruiseline]

My pennies worth

There are no guarantees where breeding is concerned, it's a lottery, you can put the best with the best and end up with nothing special, that has been proven time and time again. However, if you put the worst with the worst, then you are almost certain to get nothing more than the worst back in return!! All stallions should be 'graded' now this is where it gets tricky! As far as I am concerned this could consist of a simple veterinary check (done at a hospital, not at home), to include full clean x-rays and a report stating that the stallion is free from an hereditary disease and that there are no temperament or conformational issues. Or it could be a full public, glitzy, fanfare event with spot lights and a gala dinner, I don't care as long as an independent person has seen the horse and put their reputation on its suitability as a potential sire. Oh, and I think it should be law, along with the fact that ALL foals born in the UK should, by law, have to be registered in a British based studbook.

 

[Rollin]

Cruiseline your last points. If that were the enforced then, as used to be the case in France, all British Natives would be registered with the French National Stud.

This was part of our long battle for our Cleveland Bays, who were not recognised as pedigree horses by the French National Stud and classed with heavy horses as Cheval de Trait. This meant they were excluded from competitions other than carriage driving.

We took our German bred but registered Highland Pony to a HPS show at Lion D'Angers and discovered that the French bred ponies were not in the HPS stud book.

We are furious to discover that the performance requirements in France for our Shagya stallion are different to those in Germany for the SAME stud book. Meanwhile ISG are concerned about breeding consistency throughout member states - it is humbug!!

 

[cruiseline]

Cruiseline your last points. If that were the enforced then, as used to be the case in France, all British Natives would be registered with the French National Stud.

This was part of our long battle for our Cleveland Bays, who were not recognised as pedigree horses by the French National Stud and classed with heavy horses as Cheval de Trait. This meant they were excluded from competitions other than carriage driving.

We took our German bred but registered Highland Pony to a HPS show at Lion D'Angers and discovered that the French bred ponies were not in the HPS stud book.

We are furious to discover that the performance requirements in France for our Shagya stallion are different to those in Germany for the SAME stud book. Meanwhile ISG are concerned about breeding consistency throughout member states - it is humbug!!

I am sorry Rollin, but you will have to clarify your comments! Perhaps I didn't make myself clear, my remarks are aimed at UK based stallions and UK bred foals!

 

[Rollin]

I understand that.

If all member states do the same, (tit for tat) then what would happen to British native breeds born in France or Germany if they are registered in another stud book?

 

[cruiseline]

I understand that.

If all member states do the same, (tit for tat) then what would happen to British native breeds born in France or Germany if they are registered in another stud book?

They would be registered in the relevant studbook in whichever country they were born and perhaps overstamped by their respective breed studbook if in another country.

 

[rascal]

I am writing a report for my English Language course about unlicensed stallions and overbreeding within the equestrian world. I would greatly appreciate any opinions, views and experiences you may have on this matter. I have messaged a couple of studs and a few horse charities. I look forward to reading your responses and thank you for your time!

There is a lot of overbreeding from poor quality stock in the midlands. Most of them have really poor conformation and should not have been bred from. Mostly they are minis and cobs. The kids think its fun to let tethered colts/stallions run free and cut the ropes the poor animals were tethered with. I know one was killed on the road. Its wrong that these horses are being allowed to breed, Its just adding to the huge problem of unwanted horses.