Unlicensed stallions

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sywell

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When you use stallions that are not approved by any breed society you will not be able to get verified pedigree documents. Do not always believe what you are told ,check with the studbooks. Some young stallions are only licensed for 1 year so when you enquire you are told they are licensed but when you use them they are not. Its no good having a foal with no breeding papers however fantastic it is. I speak to many mare owners who have been mislead and cannot get breed society papers.
 
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When you use stallions that are not approved by any breed society you will not be able to get verified pedigree documents.

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This is not correct as a sweeping statement. Each studbook has their own rules on this and therefore how offspring of ungraded stallions are treated is very individual to each studbook.

SHB(GB) issue DNA verified, parentage tested ID passports with full pedigree where they have the DNA profiles of both the sire and dam regardless of whether they are graded with them. My stallion is as yet ungraded and we have passports for all our foals with their full pedigrees and DNA verified enabling them to compete in all Age related and British Bred classes.

So it may be the case that the studbook you approached wont register the offspring, but SHB(GB) certainly does as we know from the last 3 years of registering offspring by our stallion.
 
You may have the parentage verified but they are still not studbook horses of SHGB the stallion and the dam still need to be graded to be a part of the studbook. all you have is ID passports with Verified breeding. I accept that historic practices of Weatherbys Non TB register do things that they have always done but the are still only ID passports. If we need British Breeding to be respected and build up an export trade for British Bred horses we must have progeny of licensed stallions and graded mares because all the succesful studbooks have proved this is the only way to go.
 
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I'm sorry you're wrong.
Stallions registered as Inspected by Weatherbys get covering certs issued by them and accepted by SHB (GB).
Licensing doesn't come into it.

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However, stallions that are ONLY inspected by Weatherbys are not accepted by any other studbook (and especially by any other WBFSH member studbook as SHBGB is) as graded stalions so although verified pedigrees might be included in the passports (this is actually a function of the Section X regualtions) nowhere does it indicate any official approval of these stallions as a WBFSH-graded (or its equivalent).
 
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You may have the parentage verified but they are still not studbook horses of SHGB the stallion and the dam still need to be graded to be a part of the studbook. all you have is ID passports with Verified breeding. I accept that historic practices of Weatherbys Non TB register do things that they have always done but the are still only ID passports. If we need British Breeding to be respected and build up an export trade for British Bred horses we must have progeny of licensed stallions and graded mares because all the succesful studbooks have proved this is the only way to go.

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In the Eventing discipline the Irish studbooks and UK Sport horse studbooks are the most successful. Irish documentation is notoriously bad, and Sporthorse studbooks are basically a book of part breds.... neither set of studbooks has a long history of grading mares in particular, and parentage testing is relatively new because covering certificates have actually proved unreliable - but they are without question producing the best event horses in the world...

As sporthorses are often partbreds, I'm not sure what added value is of having 'Studbook Passport' stamped on the front cover instead of 'ID Passport' when all the rest of the document is identical...? All breeding is included and DNA verified and all future performance will be tracked and attributed to the stud book. Clearly I'm missing some additional benefit I've not seen? I'm certainly not against grading, in fact the majority of my mares have been presented for grading, but I'm not sure what the furore is over all this?
 
When breeding horses you are looking at 5 years ahead when the horse starts competing. Irish and SGB were very good eventing horses but the changing formats no longer need that type of horse.
When you look at the number of warmbloods being bought by top eventers you realise that things have changed. You are missing the whole point of warmblood breeding where the grading and licensing of stallions is preventing horses with basic faults getting into the breeding population. Leg xrays which show up OCD ,tail samples for drug testing and evaluation in the performance test of temprement. The ridden performance test for stallion mothers to prove that only top mares are bred from. Sporthorse are not part breds put cross bred purebreds.
 
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When breeding horses you are looking at 5 years ahead when the horse starts competing. Irish and SGB were very good eventing horses but the changing formats no longer need that type of horse.

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4* results don't bear out this comment - e.g. Flint Curtis (Badminton winner), Headley Brittania (Kentucky, Badminton & Burghley winner). Top riders are still saying they want to be on predominantly TB based horses.

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When you look at the number of warmbloods being bought by top eventers you realise that things have changed.

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And many of these are sold on for a profit to people who will never ride at 4* level but will be competitive at lower levels. The ones they keep have predominantly TB lines crossed with some warmblood.

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You are missing the whole point of warmblood breeding where the grading and licensing of stallions is preventing horses with basic faults getting into the breeding population. Leg xrays which show up OCD ,tail samples for drug testing and evaluation in the performance test of temprement. The ridden performance test for stallion mothers to prove that only top mares are bred from.

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This process happens in very few UK based studbooks. On the continent it is common place for stallion prospects to be xrayed at 18 months old and be operated on to remove chips so that when they are presented for grading, lo and behold they have clean xrays. I've also seen plenty of these graded 'warmblood' stallions on the continent and the amount of bad limbs and incorrect movement I've seen is shocking. Don't believe all the hype and think very, very hard before using a stallion that doesn't have a conformation shot in it's studcard - they'll be a reason for that!

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Sporthorse are not part breds put cross bred purebreds.

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So what's a partbred then if it's not part of one breed and part of another? Many warmblood stallions bloodlines are just a mish mash of Holstein, Hanoverian, Swedish, Selle Francais, Anglo Arab and TB bloodlines. In dogs they'd be called mongrels. I think in comparison part bred is quite a nice term, and more importantly, an accurate description of what they actually are. I'm not saying they're bad horses in the slightest, but let's take them for what they are without trying to dress them up with 'designer' labels...
 
Hangb - whilst yes of course stallion gradings show up faults and those that have defects are not graded into studbooks....however...what about all those stallions that failed their gradings for VERY valid reasons such as conformational defects, etc.....and yet have gone on to be fully approved with those studbooks at a later date without representing jusr because they are competing at a certain level......just because they are doing well doesn't necessarily mean they shoudl be bred from does it???? There are many top geldings out there that are undeniably the best in their sphere....but would you breed from them???? I can think of 2 top stallions off the top of my head that have been passed for full grading in this manner.....Chilli Morning (who I love) is now fully graded SHBGB after failing...and reigning Olympic Gold medal winner, Hickstead is now graded Zangersheide after failing. Both of these failed for conformational and other issues. There are others but these are just examples of where a grading is not the be all and end all.
 
I should have also said that there is also the flip side...those stallions that are failed at gradings, possibly for faults which may or may not be there or possibly because the judges do not like/have fallen out iwth an owner. I know of one stud whose horses failed their gradings last year because they had had an arguement with one of the evaluators. I also know of another stallion, Zubin R, who has been the subject of heated disputes as he scored the first 10 for conformation at the futurity and yet was failed in his SHBGB grading for poor conformation. This stallion is now in Germany jumping and last year passed his first stage approval with the KWPN - IMO a much more stringent society!!!!
 
Julia once you get your stallion graded then you will have different views. At the moment ID documents are all progeny by your boy can obtain but once graded you to, will be like to have a studbook passport.

Eventrider - you keep bring up Zubin R and that he failed on conformation with the SHBGB - have you actually used him yet on any of your mares? I saw this horse in the flesh loose and ridden as well as studied his conformation. If you want a jumping horse then maybe he has the breeding to produce one but his conformation for a young stallion was not up to stratch. He is doing well in young horse training shows abroad, showing an excellent attitude to his work and yes he did do well at the futurities but they were looking for sport horses (which Zubin is) and not stallions!
 
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Eventrider - you keep bring up Zubin R and that he failed on conformation with the SHBGB - have you actually used him yet on any of your mares?

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That would be impossible for the poster to do as Zubin's owner does not stand ungraded stallions at stud and anyway he is based in Germany ATM (where he has Bundeschampionat qualifying level results (all 8s) but will not be able to take part in the Final becuase of his KWPN passport). He is being increasingly regarded as the best son of Lupicor around and I am afraid that the fact that he is a 'failed' stallion here has worringly one little to add credit to the view our European neighbours have of the competency of some of our stallion grading judges <sigh>.

Perhaps if they learned to distinguish between a set back elbow and a flatter rib cage (which together allow much greater freedom of snatch up when jumping) and being back at the knee (definetely a no no but completely different although the vertical alignment from the wither to the ground may seem the same but the knee is actually not behind the vertical in the set back elbow which is the key -- and very basic -- point) then that might help. As of course would the ability to accept that a horse jumping under saddle after only 6 weeks training would actually be 'novicey' at times rather than condemning it as such becuase it wasn't doing 1.20 m spreads in show working hunter style<sigh>. But then that would require them to use the pretty universal jumping assessment criteria for WBFSH-studbook stallion grading judges in mainland Europe (based on assessing attitude, approach, shape over a fence and ability to move away from the fence) and allowing for the possibility that Johnny Foreigner knew a bit about this having been doing it successfully for nearly 40 years.
 
Welcome Tom glad to see your input. Chip removal always leaves a scar and everyone who knows anything will avoid that stallion. Breed from the best to the best will always hold good. The strict evaluation on vet grounds and xrays you say is not common in UK studbooks also presentation under saddle is not common but horses are to be ridden so these are important principles in breeding. You mention horses that have graded on competition results at later a date with studbooks,I wonder how many of the studbooks were privately owned? Knowing the breeding Directors of many of the major studbooks they have an integrity that we could well do with in the UK they are there to see that their studbook are the best in their field and many have PHD in animal genetics from leading agricultural universities something sadly lacking in the UK.
 
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Julia once you get your stallion graded then you will have different views. At the moment ID documents are all progeny by your boy can obtain but once graded you to, will be like to have a studbook passport.

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Why would I have a different view? I use other people's ungraded stallions so it certainly isn't specifically about my views on my own stallion. You also didn't answer my question about what a Breeding Passport gives me that an DNA parentage verified ID Passport doesn't...? Perhaps that's because the answer is nothing...
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I also disagree that chip operations leave scars - unless they've been very badly done. Plus, most 'punters' only get to see the DVD of the stallion, not in the flesh and therefore would have no idea that it's had a chip operation...
 
Youandyours - as Ciss has said...I cannot use this stallion as the owner will not stand him at stud till he is fully graded. In actual fact we tried to use him last year and could not! The fact is that he has now passed first stage approval with the KWPN....a much more stringent studbook than SHBGB I would say. Also....I do NOT keep bringing up Zubin R - this is the first time in a very long time that I have mentioned him and I think you will find that there have been other posts which have seen him mentioned by other people. Also....you say that he passed his conformation score with the futurity but that that doesn't necessarily mean he will do so as a stallion...I am sorry but irrespective of whether it is a stallion, mare or gelding, conformation is conformation and there should be no difference other than the basic ones you will see in the differences between mares and stallions/geldings.

Hangb - not all the studbooks that have graded after competition results are privately owned...SHBGB and AES do it often!
 
I have no axe to grind with any stallion grading system as all stallion owners take their animals forward not knowing whether they will or will not find favour.

Ciss you are always promoting stud books above SHB(GB) as they were the ones which rejected Zubin after the BEF had made him champion. As discussed at length on this forum, the evaluations which you are involved in are for Sport Horses and not stallion gradings.

A stallion does not necessarily have to be an elite sportshorse to be able to produce elite progeny - there is a lot more to a stallion than his actual performance as you are very well aware of.

The owner of Zubin is actually not in a position to stand him at stud - is as far as I remember when meeting him at the Dinner, a person who struck lucky when buying a foal from a breeder whose situation had made it impossible for her to keep the colt. He is a hard working paramedic and I like most wish him every success with Zubin, as we actually need more owners like him.
 
Three points I would like to make.

First, of all the major breeding countries in the EU Ireland is the only one that has a large proportion of each year's foal crop sired by unapproved -- and usually unapprovable -- stallions. Fully 1 out of 3 foals born into the Irish Horse Register/Irish Sport Horse Studbook are sired by unapproved stallions. This peculiar and distressing phenomenon, in my opinion, is one of the reasons Ireland has been falling off the map as an important showjumping breeding country.

Second, fillies and colts sired by unapproved stallions are prohibited from many studbooks from being entered into the breeding population of those studbooks. This is a point I often make to Irish breeders who use unapproved stallions and/or have mares sired by unapproved stallions. The progeny will be of no interest to serious foreign clients looking for top quality breeding stock because those fillies (and colts) cannot be entered into the top level studbooks those foreign clients operate within. Further, in today's world most studbooks will not approve a stallion that has an unapproved sire in its 4- or 5-generation pedigree. So using an unapproved stallion is not an issue for sport horses but it is certainly an issue with respect to breeding stock.

Third, surgical procedures to remove bone chips usually do not leave a scar on the skin but a skilled radiologist can often identify the spot where the chip originated. Not all the time, but often.
 
Hangb - not all the studbooks that have graded after competition results are privately owned...SHBGB and AES do it often!
The AES is basically owned by Henk .
You also didn't answer my question about what a Breeding Passport gives me that an DNA parentage verified ID Passport
None of the main international studbooks would touch a mare or stallion with an ID only passport quite simple. All of the rules tend to say what is an acceptable breeding population and an ID passport is not part of a Society's breeding population.
 
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Welcome Tom glad to see your input. Chip removal always leaves a scar and everyone who knows anything will avoid that stallion. ...

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Actually, what is probably more to the point is that the European stallion graders know very well which studs operate for chips at 2 yrs old and then claim that they never sell a horse with OCD especialy when they boast about it to upwards of 50 top grading judges at a WBFSH seminar. Rememebr that hangb? <ROFL>

The practical result of this is that scar or not it is pretty hard to get a colt originating from one of these studs approved unless it is -- and always has been -- in the ownership of the 'big breeder' concerned becuase you can be sure that they would never risk standing a horse that had been operated on themselves. OTOH they would be happy to sell it into a country where strict X-rays and thorough vettings at studbook gradings are not the norm as that is no longer their problem, provides them with an extra source of income and does little to help the improvement of other studbooks and breeding industries.

It is also why I never recommend that anyone buys a potential stallion prospect from abroad at any older than 9 months (and preferably on the mare for collection at weaning) as at least then if anything goes wrong on the chip front you will not havevinvested to huge an amount of money or emotion into your purchase.
 
The reality is that every major warmblood studbook approves horses with bone chips. Every studbook. Some studbooks disclose the ocd status of stallions but most do not. Some studbooks disclose the radiographic criteria but most do not. Some inform the members when a stallion is approved that violates the criteria but most do not. Some studbooks have different criteria for older stallions than for younger stallions.

A much bigger problem than a bone chip is degenerative bone diseases such as navicular disease and arthritis. But these faults do not receive as much attention among owners and breeders because there are thousands of euro and pounds sterlings and US$ to be made by vets removing chips (whether they are truly a problem or not in any particular circumstance) and not much to be made with the verdict of "nothing we can do" for a degenerative bone disease.

Using an approved stallion is no guarantee that the stallion does not have a bone chip (or has not been operated on to remove a chip). But if he is approved it is DESPITE him having the bone chip -- a "compensating differential", in the words of an economist, comes into play that makes the chip something that can be lived with because the stallion has some other features that are so outstanding.
 
"as navicular disease and arthritis." may not become apparant until much older, surely this wont be picked up at a 3yo grading? By the time it was picked up the stallion could of covered many mares.
 
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I also disagree that chip operations leave scars - unless they've been very badly done. Plus, most 'punters' only get to see the DVD of the stallion, not in the flesh and therefore would have no idea that it's had a chip operation...

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I'm with Julia! I had a very promising colt that I'd hoped was stallion material - then we discovered a chip on the hock. I gelded him - and had chip removed. He's totally scar free - and sound (being backed now). The only 'evidence' of the chip - and you'd only see it if you knew - is that he is 'lazy' with that hock when being lunged (although fine when ridden.) I think he just got into the habit of 'saving' that leg - and still does it when not under a rider. With the weight of a rider, he uses it perfectly normally!
 
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The reality is that every major warmblood studbook approves horses with bone chips. Every studbook. Some studbooks disclose the ocd status of stallions but most do not. Some studbooks disclose the radiographic criteria but most do not. Some inform the members when a stallion is approved that violates the criteria but most do not. Some studbooks have different criteria for older stallions than for younger stallions.

A much bigger problem than a bone chip is degenerative bone diseases such as navicular disease and arthritis. But these faults do not receive as much attention among owners and breeders because there are thousands of euro and pounds sterlings and US$ to be made by vets removing chips (whether they are truly a problem or not in any particular circumstance) and not much to be made with the verdict of "nothing we can do" for a degenerative bone disease.

Using an approved stallion is no guarantee that the stallion does not have a bone chip (or has not been operated on to remove a chip). But if he is approved it is DESPITE him having the bone chip -- a "compensating differential", in the words of an economist, comes into play that makes the chip something that can be lived with because the stallion has some other features that are so outstanding.

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As usual your informed and pragmatic comment makes very pertinent points and represents a very honest summary of matters.

I have had numerous discussions with vets about chips and how big an issue it is, and the general view amongst established equine lameness vets is much as Tom has said - some are a problem but many aren't and will never cause a problem. That said I'd rather breed to a bloodline I KNOW doesn't have a history of chips than one that does!

It just goes to underline that no grading system is perfect and really the only way to assess a stallion is through the health and performance of their offspring...
 
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Third, surgical procedures to remove bone chips usually do not leave a scar on the skin but a skilled radiologist can often identify the spot where the chip originated. Not all the time, but often.

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Thank you! You took the words right out of my fingers. One of the biggest pinhooks ever in the TB world was a Seeking The Gold colt bought as a short yearling for $4,000 (Seeking The Gold's stud fee was approx $200,000 at the time this horse was conceived!) Why? Be cause the colt had a HUGE bone chip in his knee. The purchaser whisked him straight off to Rood & Riddle and the chip was removed. Later that year the colt sold for $400,000! No flesh scars, no evidence on the x-rays. Of course it doesn't always work like this and sometimes these ops go horribly wrong and of course not every lucency is operable.
 
It just goes to underline that no grading system is perfect and really the only way to assess a stallion is through the health and performance of their offspring...

Grading is only the beginning the creation of the EBVs which have a rolling base line for stallions with 10 progeny in mare performance test or pre selection for the riding horse auctions the percentage is also improved by the inclusion of close relatives. The BLUPs and the accurate statistical information that in Germany is run by the FN on one level and the breed societies on more criteria is a blueprint for the succesful breeding industry. The involvement of the State Vet Service and the Performance Test Centers which have been under the control of Regional Goverment give an more independent view of specific criteria that are important in breeding stallions and the detail as an example "a stallion must have testicals of an equal and generous size" and they are scanned for this purpose shows why the "licensed stallion" is so valuable in an international market.
 
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"as navicular disease and arthritis." may not become apparant until much older, surely this wont be picked up at a 3yo grading? By the time it was picked up the stallion could of covered many mares.

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You can see very clearly if there are any degenerative changes in a young horse besides an old horse through x-rays.

Also if you speak to the people who x-ray for the KWPN a foal can have OCD but if given the right upbringing by the age of 2 may never show any outward signs. The ONLY way to know if a horse ever had OCD would be to x-ray as a foal and then again around the age of 18-24 months.

OCD and chips have a lot to due with nutrition and development of the young horse as they mature.
 
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"as navicular disease and arthritis." may not become apparant until much older, surely this wont be picked up at a 3yo grading? By the time it was picked up the stallion could of covered many mares.

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Yes, there is no guarantee that a stallion that is free of evidence of degenerative bone disease will remain free of degenerative bone disease for the rest of its life. But arthritis and navicular changes can be seen in 2.5 year old horses if they are present.
 
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