Unlocking horses front end - teaching horse to stretch down

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emfen1305

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My cob's stride has become increasingly stuffy for a while now and he just does not cover much ground at all and spends most of his time with his ears near my nose. After persevering and watching him get worse, we (myself and instructor) realised the issue is very much to do with his head and mouth so have tried him bitless. He has been going much better and is much more relaxed in his head so now i want to start teaching him and encouraging him to really move his front legs and stretch down. He tracks up well with his hind end but struggles to stretch over his back, he either hollows or overbends. What exercises could I do to encourage him to extend his stride and stretch down? Most of the reading i have done suggests that if he is working properly behind he will have no choice but he seems to do very well at evading so it feels like he is blocking himself! Saddle has been checked, physio is happy and he does the same with both me and my instructor so i do think its a bit of a mental block.

Pushing him to stretch over poles really helps but I also want some more exercises to try, any suggestions?

Virtual biscuits for anyone who can understand the rabble, open to all ideas!
 
Oh, where to start? Firstly, a picture would be helpful - cobs are not designed to be riding horses, really, and many have short, thick necks, upright shoulders and stiff backs. All of these make stretching, rounding and stepping over the back difficult.

If you've had to resort to a bitless bridle then it is fairly likely that the basic building blocks of riding training are not established, so you need to go back and install them. The most basic tenet is to go forward from the aids, accept the contact offered and follow the rider's generous hand, wherever that tells the horse to take it. Good luck, and perhaps a more experienced instructor might help.
 
Cortez said:
Oh, where to start? Firstly, a picture would be helpful - cobs are not designed to be riding horses, really, and many have short, thick necks, upright shoulders and stiff backs. All of these make stretching, rounding and stepping over the back difficult.

If you've had to resort to a bitless bridle then it is fairly likely that the basic building blocks of riding training are not established, so you need to go back and install them. The most basic tenet is to go forward from the aids, accept the contact offered and follow the rider's generous hand, wherever that tells the horse to take it. Good luck, and perhaps a more experienced instructor might help.
Click to expand...

Haha yes suppose it could open up a pandoras box really! Below is a picture, its the best side on view I have I think, he's a cob x appy.

I suspect his dislike for the bit comes comes from heavy hands before I got him, I have seen heavy handed people ride him (safe to say they only got on once!) and he gets quite stressed by the whole thing, I suspect he's been see-sawn in the past! He also has a very sensitive mouth (pink muzzled) so it cracks quite easily even with bit guards and bit butter so I can't imagine that's nice for him either. I on the other hand probably ride a little too softly so one extreme to another really but i've had him for 2 years now, numerous different instructors and the current one gets us going the best, a bonus is she likes the idea of bitless where its needed so I am reluctant to change, though I agree, a dressage instructor would perhaps be more useful but lack of funds force me online to do some research!

 
Lovely markings - are there a few spots on that bottom as well?

Mine is of a similar build (when she's at the right weight!) and I have found that working her from the ground more than in the saddle is having a greater effect. Like Cortez says above they are designed to pull themselves along by their front end, so plonking a riders weight on their back and asking them to motor along from their bottoms is hard work and they tend to hollow.

Mine was hollowing with my weight on her (I'm under 9 stone and she's 600kg - so it wasn't a rider weight issue) and if she tucked her head in and looked pretty then it was basically to avoid moving forward off my leg.

I have done a lot of lunging over poles, introduced the equiami for short periods and really worked on strengthening her core muscles. Under saddle I concentrated on getting her to move off my leg and really have some energy in the trot. Lots of transitions, shoulder in, leg yielding off circles etc. She has just started to reach into the contact of her own accord, but is very inconsistent - she finds it hard.

Annoyingly just as she was starting to work well she's picked up an infection and its triggered all her old stomach problems - so she can barely walk at the moment let alone be ridden. Grrrr!
 
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I have copied and pasted an answer I gave a while back to a similar question -

Asking for some lateral movement on a circle, stepping under with the hind leg helps to develop muscle on the horses back and will bring its head down. Follow this up with combing the reins to encourage the horse to stretch forwards and down.
I googled "rein combing", to find a good way of describing it and came up with the following which describes both techniques far better than I could.

http://www.dharmahorse.com/Articles/...0Sept 88.pdf

I have been advocating combing the reins for years now and have never seen if fail to bring the horses head down - no force involved! You can do it throughout a horses training at the beginning and end of a schooling session to encourage stretching along the back and to build muscle.
Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...rse-to-work-IN-an-outline#DTo7J3tBDlub8cAZ.99

I have, since then, found a horse it wouldn't work on! She had a wolf tooth and subsequent ulcers; once the tooth was taken out and the ulcers sorted she settled down to work properly. :)
 
Erm, why would you want to bring a horse's head down? What needs to happen is the horse needs to bring it's back up, flex at the poll and not resist the rider's rein aids. All the fiddling with the reins in the world won't make all that happen. Horses should carry their heads on the end of their necks, flexed and balanced, with the poll at the highest point, the gullet open, and the nose roughly level with the point of the shoulder. In the photo (pretty cob, BTW) the horse looks about right.
 
Cortez said:
Erm, why would you want to bring a horse's head down? What needs to happen is the horse needs to bring it's back up, flex at the poll and not resist the rider's rein aids. All the fiddling with the reins in the world won't make all that happen. Horses should carry their heads on the end of their necks, flexed and balanced, with the poll at the highest point, the gullet open, and the nose roughly level with the point of the shoulder. In the photo (pretty cob, BTW) the horse looks about right.
Click to expand...

I agree with this. If you lower a horse's head too much with that kind of conformation, they will inevitably end up completely on their forehand.
 
Oh emfen he is stunning!! What you describe sounds exactly how I've been feeling with my cob. I've found to really help my boys "choppy-ness"; working him into a contact at walk and then gradually stretching it out, going very steady and off the track so I am forced to ride properly, using lots of bending, spiraling, change of rein etc to really get him bending around my leg. Some days this is all we will do as he is a natural worryer and doesn't relax, others we will work like this in all three paces, getting off his back in canter to help the swing and gradually shortening the reins into a more "up" frame and working on transitions to get his hinds underneath him and then stretching him back out again. Working like this will help to shift the weight back, giving him more balance and getting him off the forehand so he can stretch his legs out in front of him without worrying about falling flat on his face. Working on our medium trot has also helped me realise how collected his "working" trot was before, and that I really need to push more forwards. We are starting to work on collection now (baby steps - quarter of a circle or so), which I can feel really ads swing and bounce to his steps.
 
SEL said:
Lovely markings - are there a few spots on that bottom as well?

Mine is of a similar build (when she's at the right weight!) and I have found that working her from the ground more than in the saddle is having a greater effect. Like Cortez says above they are designed to pull themselves along by their front end, so plonking a riders weight on their back and asking them to motor along from their bottoms is hard work and they tend to hollow.

Mine was hollowing with my weight on her (I'm under 9 stone and she's 600kg - so it wasn't a rider weight issue) and if she tucked her head in and looked pretty then it was basically to avoid moving forward off my leg.

I have done a lot of lunging over poles, introduced the equiami for short periods and really worked on strengthening her core muscles. Under saddle I concentrated on getting her to move off my leg and really have some energy in the trot. Lots of transitions, shoulder in, leg yielding off circles etc. She has just started to reach into the contact of her own accord, but is very inconsistent - she finds it hard.

Annoyingly just as she was starting to work well she's picked up an infection and its triggered all her old stomach problems - so she can barely walk at the moment let alone be ridden. Grrrr!
Click to expand...

SEL - Thank you, his markings were pretty much the driving factor in me going to see him and then his temperament is what made me buy him! He's got a spotty bum and then freckly muzzle so we suspect there must be some spotty in him somewhere though no idea on breeding! I am lunging over poles but try not to do too much as he is in the early stages of arthritis in his hocks so have to be careful on small circles but he is really learning to use himself over the poles but then as soon as he goes nice he then starts rushing and becomes very on the forehand and as soon as I ask him to slow up, he hollows and the head comes up in the air so I'm hoping as he strengthens this will become more consistent.

I've been looking at an equiami, are they worth the money?

Sorry to hear about your girl, just seems to be one thing after another with them doesn't it!
 
D66 said:
I have copied and pasted an answer I gave a while back to a similar question -

Asking for some lateral movement on a circle, stepping under with the hind leg helps to develop muscle on the horses back and will bring its head down. Follow this up with combing the reins to encourage the horse to stretch forwards and down.
I googled "rein combing", to find a good way of describing it and came up with the following which describes both techniques far better than I could.

http://www.dharmahorse.com/Articles/...0Sept 88.pdf

I have been advocating combing the reins for years now and have never seen if fail to bring the horses head down - no force involved! You can do it throughout a horses training at the beginning and end of a schooling session to encourage stretching along the back and to build muscle.
Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...rse-to-work-IN-an-outline#DTo7J3tBDlub8cAZ.99

I have, since then, found a horse it wouldn't work on! She had a wolf tooth and subsequent ulcers; once the tooth was taken out and the ulcers sorted she settled down to work properly. :)
Click to expand...

I'll have a read thanks. He resists any form of fiddling as I think he's definitely been seesawn or ridden in draw reins in the past so I suspect a long rein with perfectly timed
squeezes may work best as suggested in the link to the forum. If i try to shorten too much then he panics and tucks his head in and hollows. I might see if there are any wolf teeth, he did have ulcers and then he went in for further exams and was injected in the hocks but they did quite a few checks on him so I am hoping we have covered all points. I'll check with the dentist again to rule out wolf teeth. :)
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Whilst i agree with apercrumbie and cortez, I would want to know why the horse is uncomfortable in the mouth. Have you had a dentist have a look, lately?
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Yes he has been checked by his dentist before I got him, the dentist who does the whole yard and then my own vet and nobody has found anything out of the ordinary. I didn't ask about wolf teeth but I could do just to double check though I assume they would have looked!
 
Cortez said:
Erm, why would you want to bring a horse's head down? What needs to happen is the horse needs to bring it's back up, flex at the poll and not resist the rider's rein aids. All the fiddling with the reins in the world won't make all that happen. Horses should carry their heads on the end of their necks, flexed and balanced, with the poll at the highest point, the gullet open, and the nose roughly level with the point of the shoulder. In the photo (pretty cob, BTW) the horse looks about right.
Click to expand...

The photo is what I am for though it is rare to have him like that, usually he gets there and then tucks his chin to his chest so I was hoping by encouraging long and low it would help to build the correct muscle to help him work more consistently.
 
Welshie95 said:
Oh emfen he is stunning!! What you describe sounds exactly how I've been feeling with my cob. I've found to really help my boys "choppy-ness"; working him into a contact at walk and then gradually stretching it out, going very steady and off the track so I am forced to ride properly, using lots of bending, spiraling, change of rein etc to really get him bending around my leg. Some days this is all we will do as he is a natural worryer and doesn't relax, others we will work like this in all three paces, getting off his back in canter to help the swing and gradually shortening the reins into a more "up" frame and working on transitions to get his hinds underneath him and then stretching him back out again. Working like this will help to shift the weight back, giving him more balance and getting him off the forehand so he can stretch his legs out in front of him without worrying about falling flat on his face. Working on our medium trot has also helped me realise how collected his "working" trot was before, and that I really need to push more forwards. We are starting to work on collection now (baby steps - quarter of a circle or so), which I can feel really ads swing and bounce to his steps.
Click to expand...

Thank you - I've found he's very marmite, some people really like him and others just really don't, luckily I could look at him all and I'm the one that pays the bills haha!

Sounds like you are describing Toby - are you secretly riding him at night?! ;) I think I need to vary a bit more what I do in terms of lengthening, shortening, poles, spirals etc as when he is challenged he works better, I think he gets bored trotting an entire lap and i do too to be honest.

What you said about the trot is very similar too, he is much more collected on his left rein, I realised this more recently when I put some canter poles out and had to move them out by a foot each on the right rein but he had no chance of making the distance on the left, he could also never make a stride to a fence on the left either, always felt like a half stride so i have really worked at pushing him on to cover more ground and I've definitely noticed a difference in him relaxing. I will just keep on at it, just wanted to know I wasn't going mad or doing something terribly wrong!
 
emfen1305 said:
Thank you - I've found he's very marmite, some people really like him and others just really don't, luckily I could look at him all and I'm the one that pays the bills haha!

Sounds like you are describing Toby - are you secretly riding him at night?! ;) I think I need to vary a bit more what I do in terms of lengthening, shortening, poles, spirals etc as when he is challenged he works better, I think he gets bored trotting an entire lap and i do too to be honest.

What you said about the trot is very similar too, he is much more collected on his left rein, I realised this more recently when I put some canter poles out and had to move them out by a foot each on the right rein but he had no chance of making the distance on the left, he could also never make a stride to a fence on the left either, always felt like a half stride so i have really worked at pushing him on to cover more ground and I've definitely noticed a difference in him relaxing. I will just keep on at it, just wanted to know I wasn't going mad or doing something terribly wrong!
Click to expand...

Never wrong, its a huge learning curve but so so rewarding when it goes right! I am also trialing a Myler bit this week, from a Neue Schule starter bit (he absolutely hated the new Tactio which the Bit Bank recommended) to see if this will help him stretch forward more, will let you know how we get on!
 
TBF he is going to struggle not to be on the forehand if he has hock issues anyway, I think that is quite important to consider when trying to change his way of going as it would be unfair to expect him to sit back much. However it is good for them to do enough that they otherwise have good supported muscle, I'd wonder if he would benefit from something like straightness training, it certainly helped my ageing cob.
 
Welshie95 said:
Never wrong, its a huge learning curve but so so rewarding when it goes right! I am also trialing a Myler bit this week, from a Neue Schule starter bit (he absolutely hated the new Tactio which the Bit Bank recommended) to see if this will help him stretch forward more, will let you know how we get on!
Click to expand...

Thank you! The myler combination was next on the list but looked a bit complicated and maybe would be too much going on for him. I tried a NS Tranz Angled something or other (basically a hanging cheek) and he just leant his full body weight on me, no chomping but also no arms left at the end of it!
 
ester said:
TBF he is going to struggle not to be on the forehand if he has hock issues anyway, I think that is quite important to consider when trying to change his way of going as it would be unfair to expect him to sit back much. However it is good for them to do enough that they otherwise have good supported muscle, I'd wonder if he would benefit from something like straightness training, it certainly helped my ageing cob.
Click to expand...

Yes you've hit exactly why i want to do it! I don't want him to be the next Valegro or compete at HOYS, I just want him to work properly in order to develop the correct muscle so he carries himself properly rather than putting any unnecessary pressure on his hocks. By strengthening his bum muscles and keep on top of the tight hamstrings he already stands and works much better than he did a year ago so I want to continue building on this. Whether long and low is the best thing for this I don't know, I am going off advice from the vets, my physio and instructor but i will definitely look at straightness training! Thanks!
 
emfen1305 said:
Yes that's me :)
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The only reason I ask is that your horse is super short in the back and I doubt he can accommodate much seat wise, I wonder if your weight is distributed onto the back of the saddle and then onto the lumbar spine? it would affect his ability to use his back as effectively as you would like.
I have a super short backed Spanish horse and she only takes a 16.5inch seat and so whilst she is the size to carry adults her back just doesn't accommodate the seat needed for most!
 
Do you have hills you can hack up & down? I've recently had a cob whose default was to hollow, head in air or tucked behind. It's fairly obvious he has never been taught to work correctly. S everal months of calm hacking including up and down inclines has really helped. Just make sure the horse is relaxed and is not allowed to rush. Add some simple transitions etc. This has worked wonders with overall balance and flat work has benefitted hugely without the stress of endless hours in the arena.
 
Farma said:
The only reason I ask is that your horse is super short in the back and I doubt he can accommodate much seat wise, I wonder if your weight is distributed onto the back of the saddle and then onto the lumbar spine? it would affect his ability to use his back as effectively as you would like.
I have a super short backed Spanish horse and she only takes a 16.5inch seat and so whilst she is the size to carry adults her back just doesn't accommodate the seat needed for most!
Click to expand...

His current saddle is a 17.5'' but the panels at the back are a straighter cut so the actual saddle is a 17'' and the seat is 17.5'' because that's what I need to accommodate my fat bum! Unfortunately I am not blessed with skinny genes but I am working on this and my saddle fitter is always on the look out for saddles that would work for both of us but the older style silhouettes (his current saddle is a silhouette) are a bit like hens teeth, it's been quite difficult to find a saddle that doesn't move at the back. Hopefully once I've lost a little bit more weight we may be able to go down to a 16.5'' with a bigger seat, I used to ride in the T4 cob saddle which was a 16.5" but my fitter though it better to have my weight distributed more evenly over a slightly bigger saddle than have it shorter on his back and have it all at the back of the saddle - hopefully that makes sense but definitely something i've considered!
 
budatiger said:
Do you have hills you can hack up & down? I've recently had a cob whose default was to hollow, head in air or tucked behind. It's fairly obvious he has never been taught to work correctly. S everal months of calm hacking including up and down inclines has really helped. Just make sure the horse is relaxed and is not allowed to rush. Add some simple transitions etc. This has worked wonders with overall balance and flat work has benefitted hugely without the stress of endless hours in the arena.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately it's very flat round our end, there is one route I can go with some hills but its a very short route are there about 2 small steep hill so I do try and do this route a couple of times a week but I know we would benefit from more hilly rides! There is a hill around the corner but its a road hill (if that makes sense?) so could only really walk up and down but i will try to find some more! Thanks :)
 
emfen1305 said:
Unfortunately it's very flat round our end, there is one route I can go with some hills but its a very short route are there about 2 small steep hill so I do try and do this route a couple of times a week but I know we would benefit from more hilly rides! There is a hill around the corner but its a road hill (if that makes sense?) so could only really walk up and down but i will try to find some more! Thanks :)
Click to expand...

Walking up hills is actually better for them than trotting or cantering as it's harder for them :)
 
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