Unmanageable horses ... their fault or humans?

Archiesmummy

Archiesmummy

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When a horse is deemed dangerous, unrideable, unmanageable or just a handful, in how many cases, would you say, it is the handlers/riders fault as opposed to the horses, the horse and owner/rider are incompatible?

I know of a horse who can be sharp when ridden but was bought as a hack and appears totally unsuitable for its owner. Not the horses fault. It would probably love going round a XC course or doing some ODE's (has a history of this) or even a happy hack doing a lot more, but no, the owner just wants to quietly poodle along keeps it to just a walk, trot on a good day. Every ride seems to be eventful, spins this way, spins that way, reverses into fencing, etc, so much so retirement is being considered. Owner rides at the crack of dawn to avoid this, that and the other, avoiding the norm. And feedback from previous owners seems that it wasn't always like this but owner insists poor horse is a nervous wreck and would not consider anyone else riding her horse, horse 'doesn't deserve it ...' BUT I am sure its because horse and rider are not suited. Owner is giving horse a home for life, a pampered life, but one where its intelligence just isn't tapped into on a daily basis, if at all. Does long term future override current needs?

It seems such a shame that such an intelligent horse is almost being shackled by its owners actions.

I am not saying all dangerous horses are redeemable but how many problem horses are of mans own doing?

It definitely makes sense of the meaning 'horses for courses' and in my experience a lot of people don't think about that, sometimes their expectations are way beyond their abilities but they just don't see it.
 
We have what you might call 2 unridable horses here.

One is a Ex-Racer, turned Polo pony, but was handled roughly, so given away to the groom, she was then given to a girl (who was a fairly capable rider), who hacked her out, had a accident when she was pregnant, left her in a field for years and asked someone to shove some hay and water in for it every now and again. About 4 years later the groom found her again, gave her to the livery on our yard, who attempted to break her again, then put her in foal.

I believe that 100% of Lotties temperament, problems stem from her being passed from person to person, being roughly treated or treated wrongly. She's only 11 now, and is a bit of a lunatic, though I rode her when she was 6, and I was 11 and she wouldn't have put a foot wrong.

Both of my horses would never be "happy hackers" because they are so demanding mentally, my older mare is currently on 8 weeks of walking (vets orders), and she plays up no end, she's completely bored stiff at the moment, and my 5 year old can walk about 1/2 a mile on a hack before she starts to become difficult, I try to make everything as different as possible. I think some horses are cut out for a more laid back life than others, especially those with a previous background.
 
I definately believe that in most causes the owner/rider is to blame for 'naughty' horses, although I think in other cases it very much depends how the horse is brought up. I also agree that some horses simply don't match some people - a clash of characters can cause issues.
 
I think in quite a few cases it is the rider causing the problems. I purchased my horse off a dealer. He had been returned to the dealer as the girl who had originally bought him got to the point where she couldn't even get on him. It started with him not wanting to leave the yard to not being able to be mounted. Dealer fetched him back and I bought him. I did not realise what had gone on previously!! It took a while for us to get going together and I am sure alot of his naughty behaviour at the beginning was because I was expecting him to be naughty. Instructor just said he was misunderstood and 'just bloody ride him!!' He is now alot better and I am much more confident on him.
 
I would have said a few years ago, that it was always the fault of humans, that was until I got the animal that I have taken my name from, the dreaded Marble. I bought Marble as a foal and I mean a foal, he was only a few weeks old, and he and his mum came to live with me. I would have said that I was a reasonably experienced horse person, I am 63 and got my first pony as a three year old...and I have ridden most of my days, and had many different animals with lots of different temperments, but then I met Marble, he grew up here on my smallholding, he was never away from it, he learnt to walk on the halter, stand for the farrier, take his turn coming in to the stable etc etc, but he turned into a complete and utter devil.....if you went into the field with him, he would come after you, and I mean seriously ie gallop up, swing round and let fly, he would be an angel in stable one minute until he could get you pinned in corner you could never ever relax with him. Once he was weaned he lived with my old hunter who I thought would be a good example, he did keep Marble in check, and Marble never bullied him, in fact he adored Mouse. Keeping him in stable was a nightmare, he jumped out time and time again, in the end we had to put iron grid on door, not something I liked doing. He wrecked himself and trailer coming home from a friends one day, in fact he nearly turned trailer on side. I had high hopes of him as a foal was hoping to have him broken in and then loan him to a pony club child, as had happened with my daughters old pony. In the end i sent him to a very very experienced event rider,who I also knew would never abuse him, they are close friends. Four weeks later I got a phone call to say that he was either going to kill them or kill himself....big decision needed so, and I really hate to say this. PTS. So no I do not think it is always the human, I have dreamt about Marble many times, worried that I did something that made him like he was, but unfortunately like human beings, sometimes horses/ponies are born that maybe have a little bit of their brain not working properly. Sorry about long tale.
 
I rehab horses with issues and have had some horses come to me that have total lack off respect for anybody. All have come round and leading useful lives. I believe human error is neally always to blame but will always get the odd nutter that has a problem. But peoples views on dangerous varies so much it's untrue
 
Most people know about my two last chance ponies. Lucy was deff agressive due to her shocking treatment in her first two homes. Herbie is like he is because he hasn't been handled properly. I think he is a bolshy oppinionated pony anyway but he is as bad as he is due to having the wrong owners.
Lucy went from being agressive to the best pony in the whole world and i hope Herbie will turn out the same in the end.
 
I think in alot of cases it's down to the way horses are kept .....alot of problems would disappear if people kept their horses differently. The vast majority of horses should be living out, apart from really bad weather and eating grass. They are overfed and underworked and just generally unhappy with their lot.
 
I've only known one horse that I really thought was bordering on dangerous and whilst I think his owner made him worse, he certainly wasn't quite right in the head. Every other horse I've known that has been branded dangerous, naughty etc. Has definitely been the owners fault.
 
I agree that it is almost always the human fault, whether a previous owner or inexperience of whatever. Of course there will always be the exceptions to the rule.

I know of a horse that has been pampered and pandered to for many years. He doesn't like fly spray so he doesn't get sprayed, he doesn't like the hose so he doesn't get hosed, he doesn't like velcro so he doesn't have velcro rugs - the list is endless (clipping, loading, curry comb, vet, catching blah blah blah - he wasn;t like this when she got him) . Its not just the odd thing it is all manner of ridiculous things. Fair enough my horse doesn't like his mane pulled so I don't pull it but thats all. This horse now reacts VERY badly to things that he doesn't like. He has never been taught about things, desensitised and has never learnt that things that maybe HE thought were scary, in actual fact, aren't. He is positively dangerous to do most nirmal things with now. As a result of his owner.

Makes me mad.
 
most of the time i would say they have been messed with by a human.

but saying that i brought one as a foal who has always been a complete nightmare and still is. granted, something might have happened to her in her first few months of life before i had her but some of it must be of genetic disposition as shes had nothing but 'niceness' for 6 years and it still hasnt made her any less dangerous. her bloodlines are renowed for being nuts so there must be something in that i think.
 
Archiesmummy said:
I know of a horse who can be sharp when ridden but was bought as a hack and appears totally unsuitable for its owner. Not the horses fault. It would probably love going round a XC course or doing some ODE's (has a history of this) or even a happy hack doing a lot more, but no, the owner just wants to quietly poodle along keeps it to just a walk, trot on a good day. Every ride seems to be eventful, spins this way, spins that way, reverses into fencing, etc, so much so retirement is being considered. Owner rides at the crack of dawn to avoid this, that and the other, avoiding the norm. And feedback from previous owners seems that it wasn't always like this but owner insists poor horse is a nervous wreck and would not consider anyone else riding her horse, horse 'doesn't deserve it ...' BUT I am sure its because horse and rider are not suited. Owner is giving horse a home for life, a pampered life, but one where its intelligence just isn't tapped into on a daily basis, if at all.
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Of all the bullsh*t I detest about the horse world, this is THE No1 topic.

I know of several similar cases, like the horse which has a superb history of jumping against the clock, and that the new owner will not canter because he 'goes too fast'. Or the superb coloured cob that is left in a field 'because it's nuts and unsafe', always seems fine to me when I sneak in to say hello and make a fuss of her.

I think 90% of horse problems stem from human intervention, especially if the horse has higher than average intelligence. There will always be one or two that are just not wired up right, but the vast majority are made that way by people.
 
I'd say the vast majority of horses that can't live harmoniously, or at least productively, in the world are the way they are because of circumstance, usually training/handling and/or injury. Horses are compliant by nature - otherwise we'd ALL be dead - not just because of the way they've been bred for centuries now, but because of their fundamental makeup.

Now, suitability is a different issue. Not all horses are suitable for all situations and I'd say "unmanageable" horses are often simply "inappropriate" horses. Whether or not this can be turned around successfully usually depends on what the owner can/can't do to change the situation and how successfully the horse can be trained and managed to accept the questions its being asked. So technically it might not be people "causing" the problem but the horse isn't doing anything "wrong" - it's just being itself - and it's only the people who can solve it.

The other problem is that you can't roll back the clock. Sometimes the damage is done to such a degree that the horse can't be returned to "normal". So yes, someone caused - or at least contributed - to the situation, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's fixable. This is very sad. :(

All that said, I'd say out of the hundreds (yes, really :) ) of "problem" horses I've met a handful are, literally, "not right". The most educational one for me was a whole family of horses, all out of the same mare, that were absolutely stark raving. They had been bred by a top stud which produced many good competition horses and were produced by experienced, successful people . . . and they still did absolutely lethal things, not only under saddle but on their own time as well. The offspring all looked normal enough but when I saw the mare, she looked like one of those people you'd cross the street to avoid! :eek: I've met a few others I suspect fell into this category but I don't know where they've been every day of their lives so can't confirm it. I've also met some that were simply on the end of the spectrum of fearful or aggressive (or stupid, I hate to say) so required special handling but were manageable under such circumstances.

I'd say one of the real tricks of rehabilitating horses is figuring out why they are the way they are and subsequently which methods are most likely to help them understand and comply with the world around them.
 
bonny said:
I think in alot of cases it's down to the way horses are kept .....alot of problems would disappear if people kept their horses differently. The vast majority of horses should be living out, apart from really bad weather and eating grass. They are overfed and underworked and just generally unhappy with their lot.
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Definately agree with that one! I have a TB who is not right in the head and was getting more and more dangerous to handle, I got kicked twice, she would rear for the vet, dentist and farrier. So we changed yards to a one where she could live out 24/7 but have a stable when needed and she is very much changed, the weird behaviour she used to display when turned out seems to have almost disappeared and when she does need to come in the stable for vet and farrier she is much more chilled. The test will be the dentist this week but hopefully that will go ok.
It has definately made me realise the mental benefits for a horse with 24hr turnout. I still have to be careful round her but at least she isnt on death row any more.
 
I think 99% of the times it is humans causing problems leading to naughty neds..
We were told our mare was dangerous and needed putting down on more than one occasion - when we got her, she was unbroken, unschooled and would not leave the yard. She was jumpy in the stable, nasty out of it and spent much of her time on two legs! She also napped quite badly when she thought she was leaving the yard.
However, she was a rescue horse....
12 years on, she still has her spirit, she IS a handful, but she's loving, she no longer naps and she will school (albeit unwillingly at times!), hack (alone or in company), jump, show etc. We have no idea what happened to her as a youngster but the odd thing does happen which gives us an idea - eg, we physically can't carry jumping poles near her, or use a height measuring stick.

I suppose the morale of the story is rescue horses may have gone through things that we don't know of and people may tell you to give up on them, but if you're willing to persevere most of them come through to be lovely horses! ;)
 
TarrSteps said:
I'd say one of the real tricks of rehabilitating horses is figuring out why they are the way they are and subsequently which methods are most likely to help them understand and comply with the world around them.
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I couldn't agree more, this is exactly what my hero, the late Henry Blake, advocates in his books (they are old, but well worth a read).
 
Brandy said:
I agree that it is almost always the human fault, whether a previous owner or inexperience of whatever. Of course there will always be the exceptions to the rule.

I know of a horse that has been pampered and pandered to for many years. He doesn't like fly spray so he doesn't get sprayed, he doesn't like the hose so he doesn't get hosed, he doesn't like velcro so he doesn't have velcro rugs - the list is endless (clipping, loading, curry comb, vet, catching blah blah blah - he wasn;t like this when she got him) . Its not just the odd thing it is all manner of ridiculous things. Fair enough my horse doesn't like his mane pulled so I don't pull it but thats all. This horse now reacts VERY badly to things that he doesn't like. He has never been taught about things, desensitised and has never learnt that things that maybe HE thought were scary, in actual fact, aren't. He is positively dangerous to do most nirmal things with now. As a result of his owner.

Makes me mad.
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I read this post with interest as I am concerned that by avoiding doing something that my horse doesn't like, I am giving into her - it is fly spray at the moment, bringing her in from the field and tying her up became an issue as she would associate that with me putting fly spray on her, so I have been grooming her in the field where she stands as happy as larry, untied, for half an hour or so, munching on grass. I know it is wrong, but she is happy to be groomed again where as before she was getting a bit bargy and basically making me scared.
 
I would also say that normally it's the fault of humans.

Mine rears for the farrier, is hard to catch and has bad manners i.e. tries to tank off - all of which has been errors/lack of knowledge from previous owners due to being passed from pillar to post, eft in a field untouched and being allowed to take the mick.

He's now kept out 24/7 - seems alot happier but is still a nightmare to catch! Any advice would be appreciated!

Got the farrier, dentist and vet Friday so fingers crossed we survive!
 
margaretb said:
I read this post with interest as I am concerned that by avoiding doing something that my horse doesn't like, I am giving into her - it is fly spray at the moment, bringing her in from the field and tying her up became an issue as she would associate that with me putting fly spray on her, so I have been grooming her in the field where she stands as happy as larry, untied, for half an hour or so, munching on grass. I know it is wrong, but she is happy to be groomed again where as before she was getting a bit bargy and basically making me scared.
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Have you tried a gel with a sponge? We started having an issue with one of our 2 and fly spray purely because we were rushing (late for school!) and I think the spray was cold, causing him to fidget and faff about and threaten to kick. Now we either use gel on a sponge as part of his grooming, or I stick the bottle of fly spray in a tub of warm water for a while before using it so it's body temperature, and he's fine.
 
I would say it's about the same as with humans... and it's not as if 99.9% of humans get born "normal"! So no, I don't always think it's at the hands of the humans.

With humans, we have the knowledge to know whether an infant looks "normal"... even then, sometimes, we don't know until they reach a certain age whether they have learning difficulties, ADHD, etc. So who says horses do not have similar problems? I am pretty sure those things exist in the animal world, too, it's just that we don't analyse them the same way as we do with humans?

So I'd say 75% of these difficult horses may be at the hands of humans and 25% may have "deficiencies" from birth.
 
horses arent naughty, nor do they plot against humans, they simply dont have the mental capacity!
they are what they have been made, plus their GENES!

i think some horses are naturally very very sharp and quick thinking, same as some humans are.
i have 2 mares out of the same dam, different stallions. both have had the exact same upbringing in the same place, with similar habits / turnout / handling / food etc the list goes on.

one is a darling and id trust her with anyone.

the other, people are banned from handling! she bites, kicks and can generally be a pain in the *ss! she will cow kick in temper in her box if you simply go in, despite having been disciplined since day one for this! she kicked me within 6 hours of being born. she destroys anything you leave in her box and lives in an pen at night to avoid the stress of turning her out in the field when shes been cooped up all nite! she took 2 years (!) to halter break. shes still a pain to lead. at 4! but hey, we love her!

i broke both.
oh, and both are fab to ride. odd isnt it!
the lovely one is, average.
the grumpy cow, may be exceptional! she loves doing a job. im hoping to jump her in the 4yo at scope this year.
horses for courses, eh!

edited to add - they are the 2 foals in my sig!
 
The trouble is that so often we dont have all the information. Poor old Lancelot was not really bad,but he was certainly dangerous.He was very inteligent and opinionated.So when a groom hit him round the head with a feed bucket(though in fairness lance probably started the ruck)somebody was going to pay.And it is no coincidence that a casual passer by nearly got dragged over the door the next day.Needless to say we moved yards.he was the only horse I have never been able to figure out, and I think that is because he didnt understand either.Very lovable but very dangerous.
 
I think its mostly human error as sadly the horses with above average intelligence require a slightly smarter more horse wise human. You do get the odd one who is born in to a good home but a bit "damaged" this may be something to do with being starved of oxygen at birth ect. or simply because its not wired completely right. Same as with people. I would love to do a test on "problem" horses to indicate intelligence, compared with normal horses, I think the "problem" horses would prove this. What you tend to find is that with quick thinking breeds they tend to try and be one step ahead of you, its almost a game, a novice owner won't be hence problems arise. All of my good horses have been other peoples cast offs, normally due tot he fact that they get so far with them then the horse is a bit too clever and works out ways of evasion and becomes too much horse for them. I think also that the other area that creates problems in largely pain, and even slight pain can lead to a serious issue. Hence all "problem" horses who turn up with me are fully mot'd by vet, have pyshio, teeth done, feet looked at ect. before starting work. Sometimes these problems are so slight that a novice or someone without much feeling would miss them and say horse was just "naughty".
 
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