Unpaid Livery

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Stathama1

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We had a lady ring and ask if we had space for a 3yo stallion for full livery. We had. She agreed the price, sent the stallion with a transporter with two weeks money in cash. No passport. No full address or full name. Just phone number. Paperwork was to be sorted afterwards. She very very rarely replies to phone calls or texts and promises to pay and/or come to see him time and time again. Still nothing. Now owes 12 weeks livery plus farrier trims and feed. Checked if he’s chipped - he is but it’s unregistered to any owner or vet so no clue who this woman is or where she lives. Can we passport this horse and sell him?
 
PurBee

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Makes me wonder if her intention was to get rid of horse via a ‘livery deal’....but then why didnt she just sell him? Not hers to sell? A dispute she’s in with true owner so has got horse out of the way? He’s stolen? Wont sell due to undisclosed health issue?
Why not give you her address? why no answering of texts/calls?
At least you have a phone number - if its even hers? Do you have her full name?

Evidently without passport and chip not registering owners, this poor horse is in the middle of human issues...and unfortunately you are bearing the brunt.

As advised, abandonment notice Is all you can legally do. But where do you send it to if the phone number is fake and you have no address, or even a full name to serve the notice to. Then police need to be brought in..?


Also, perhaps consider upgrading your entry requirements to all liveries to give their full name, address with official i.d shown to you for verification. You’re able to request this as a business where others want you to care for their live property, which happens to be a ‘protected species’, where the true owners are legally liable for their care/ or entering into contract to pay you for their care. (Do you exchange livery contract signatures before horse is on your yard?)

Without the above initial ’livery acceptance process’, you leave yourself wide open to these kind of situations and so much hassle. Im amazed more liveries dont ask for i.d/full details before horse is on their yard tbh.

I hope this resolves in yours and the horses favour speedily.
 
MiJodsR2BlinkinTite

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite

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Ditto all above advice.

Are you a BHS Gold member? If so then you could ring their Legal Helpline.

Otherwise, I personally would play safe and have a chat with a legal who specialises/has experience with equine matters of this kind. You really don't want to be getting this wrong and so therefore need to know exactly where you stand legally, and what your possible actions could be.
 
Regandal

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Ambers Echo said:
AFAIK You only need to serve an abandonment notice to the owner if you know where they are! Otherwise you can just put the notice up on the yard or outside his field. After 4 working days (I think) he is yours to do with as you wish. Though I also suspect his ownership is disputed x
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I’d take a picture of the notice and send it to her. That should get her attention.
 
ArklePig

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We hire investigators at work all the time, costs about 130 pound to get a trace address. If you do this and send the abandonment notice to this address, then it should count as valid service.
 
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Spirit2021

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Sounds like the horse was stolen and someone could be using your yard to hide the horse. Definitely hire a investigator to find out more information .
 
ester

ester

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Ambers Echo said:
AFAIK You only need to serve an abandonment notice to the owner if you know where they are! Otherwise you can just put the notice up on the yard or outside his field. After 4 working days (I think) he is yours to do with as you wish. Though I also suspect his ownership is disputed x
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yup don't need to send it to them if you don't know who/where they are.

No need to spend money on investigators to get it.
 
Ample Prosecco

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OP is already significantly out of pocket! Obviously up to them, but if it was me I'd report the horse abandoned, do what was legally necessary and leave any further investigation to the police. Once the horse was mine maybe I'd put a post on Trace My Horse. But I would not be shelling out for private investigations or anything like that. There could be a dozen reasons why she's disappeared. Kicked off another yard so needed to move in a hurry but can't afford to pay. Can't afford to geld him etc. Its not OPs responsibility to understand what has happened and why.
 
ycbm

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Spirit2021 said:
Sounds like the horse was stolen and someone could be using your yard to hide the horse. Definitely hire a investigator to find out more information .
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Why would anyone send a stolen horse to a livery yard and dump it there? They'd stick it in a field somewhere very remote.

There is absolutely no need for the OP to hire a PI to find out more about this horse.
.
 
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Stathama1

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SEL said:
Have to start with an abandonment notice and I'd text her today to say that's your intention - she'll either pay up or vanish. If also make sure she couldn't turn up and take the horse without paying you!
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Thank you, she wouldn’t be able to take him, she doesn’t even know where his stable is on the yard - the cameras would set off an alarm anyway x
 
ycbm

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SEL said:
Have to start with an abandonment notice and I'd text her today to say that's your intention - she'll either pay up or vanish. If also make sure she couldn't turn up and take the horse without paying you!
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Stathama1 said:
Thank you, she wouldn’t be able to take him, she doesn’t even know where his stable is on the yard - the cameras would set off an alarm anyway x
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I dont think it's legal to hold somebody's property in lieue of a debt unless you have it in the contract that you can do that, and I don't think you have a contract?

An abandonment notice seems the only way to go but I expect he'll be collected as soon as you text them a picture of the notice.
.
 
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honetpot

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To be honest I think if you send them the abandonment notice by text, if they do not contact you, its simpler. They are not going to give you the livery money, if they turn up to collect you need evidence that it's theirs, if it's their property you can not stop them taking it away, and without confirmation of their identity and a confirmed address you can not chase them for the money. I suppose you could ring the police for advice, and see what you can do, saying you think it could be stolen property, then you have the information logged.
I have had a serial non-payer, when I finally got rid of her, I thought I had checked her out, I realised that she had hopped up the county moving far enough so that local people did not know her. My step-father, who I thought was sharp, kept six ponies over the winter, they then turned up to pay, they gave him a duff cheque, while they were in the house they had loaded the ponies up and were off. He was out of pocket for the livery, and a vets bill.
People like this are very clever, it's a system that works for them, and they rely on the fact that we think that normal horse people would not leave their animals for long periods, use all the right phrases, it's a practised con, like telephone fraud, and they know all the loopholes. The abandonment notice quickly followed by an eviction notice , if they contact you with some story, should quickly trigger a reaction, because if they do not leave after you have given notice, its effectively being fly grazed.
https://www.redwings.org.uk/news-and-views/fly-grazing-advice
Sometimes googling phone numbers, or phrases used in ads, can be useful. I would also be tempted to post of FB a photo of the horse, just to see if anyone knows it. GDPR has made it harder to get hold of information, and if you contact the transporter they may not tell you where it came from.
 
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ycbm

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rabatsa said:
As you do not have a name and address post the abandonment notice on the gates. Make sure that you have witnesses that the notice was posted and when. Personally I would not bother sending her a picture of it.
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Given that she has a phone number, I think she could get into some fairly serious problems if she doesn't use "all means possible" to alert the owner to the abandonment notice. It's not a risk I'd take myself, for fear of later being sued for the loss of the horse.
.
 
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Stathama1 said:
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How far away from that address are you?? If close could you just go and stick an invoice through the letterbox along with a note stating if not paid promptly you will start abandonment proceedings and/or small claims court proceedings.
 
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