Saratoga
Well-Known Member
Is it because they are under-subscribed and need the entry money?
Unqualified rider & horse doing 1*
- Thread starter LEC
- Start date
kerilli
Well-Known Member
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Is it because they are under-subscribed and need the entry money?
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i very sincerely hope not, because that makes a total mockery of their avowed dedication to Safety etc etc. this is serious stuff imho.
Is it because they are under-subscribed and need the entry money?
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i very sincerely hope not, because that makes a total mockery of their avowed dedication to Safety etc etc. this is serious stuff imho.
Saratoga
Well-Known Member
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i very sincerely hope not, because that makes a total mockery of their avowed dedication to Safety etc etc. this is serious stuff imho.
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It makes you wonder why they would allow someone in that wasn't qualified though, if not for the money?
i very sincerely hope not, because that makes a total mockery of their avowed dedication to Safety etc etc. this is serious stuff imho.
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It makes you wonder why they would allow someone in that wasn't qualified though, if not for the money?
Gamebird
Well-Known Member
I would think that with 100+ CCI* entries they are hardly undersubscribed!
H_J
Well-Known Member
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tbh not really sure how this is anyone's business....if BE are letting them run then whats it to us?
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Was thinking the same!
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Was thinking the same!
chatter1
Well-Known Member
Rumour has it that this rider was aware that they weren't qualified but thought as the entry was accepted then they were ok to run. Again rumour also has it, so not sure how true these statements are that they were indeed told not to fall off???!!!
I think there is a serious safety implication to letting her ride and I thought us eventers and BE were looking to improve XC safety. Surely qualifications are put in place to ensure that riders and horses have the required experience at a given level. The other side of this is its just not fair on people who have gained the correct qualifications or not entered cos they don't. I for one was very unhappy when one of my qualifactions had lapsed and I had to spend an awful lot of money in requalifying and also people like MDS who were struggling to get qualifications, purely in the dressage phase. And we were both told by BE that rules were rules!!!
I think there is a serious safety implication to letting her ride and I thought us eventers and BE were looking to improve XC safety. Surely qualifications are put in place to ensure that riders and horses have the required experience at a given level. The other side of this is its just not fair on people who have gained the correct qualifications or not entered cos they don't. I for one was very unhappy when one of my qualifactions had lapsed and I had to spend an awful lot of money in requalifying and also people like MDS who were struggling to get qualifications, purely in the dressage phase. And we were both told by BE that rules were rules!!!
OldGit
Well-Known Member
I know what you mean, but consider worst case scenario ....rider gets killed/serious injury H and S could get involved and this could impact on us all. This is why rules brought in for safety absolutely have to be adhered to.
Bubblegum
Well-Known Member
I agree. Rules are there to protect us all. I would not want my daughter to be allowed to run at a level that she was not qualified for....simple as...imo.
shee
Well-Known Member
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To qualify for the JRN champs you have to place in the top 3 and top 10 at a JRN. Which you could do, then be selected [which I know happened for someone in our area.]
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T who was that rider? cos' my daughter and I know most eastern jrn and I didn't realise someone wasn't qaulified to do a normal CCI*. maybe wrong tho...
To qualify for the JRN champs you have to place in the top 3 and top 10 at a JRN. Which you could do, then be selected [which I know happened for someone in our area.]
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T who was that rider? cos' my daughter and I know most eastern jrn and I didn't realise someone wasn't qaulified to do a normal CCI*. maybe wrong tho...
H_J
Well-Known Member
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Lisi, this is the point, the Qualifications are the absolute MINIMUM imho, it's ridiculous that they should turn a blind eye to amateurs flouting them. If it's a Pro it's slightly different, they know what they're doing.
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You cant say its ok for a pro though and not for this person when we dont really know the whole story we are just presuming from a record, we dont know anything else. if its not right to do it its not right for anyone to do it surely.
Lisi, this is the point, the Qualifications are the absolute MINIMUM imho, it's ridiculous that they should turn a blind eye to amateurs flouting them. If it's a Pro it's slightly different, they know what they're doing.
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You cant say its ok for a pro though and not for this person when we dont really know the whole story we are just presuming from a record, we dont know anything else. if its not right to do it its not right for anyone to do it surely.
tigers_eye
Well-Known Member
Quote:
otherwise BE could just say "enter for whatever you like, whenever you think you're ready..."
At the risk of causing a ruckus, that's what used to happen, and people seemed to hurt themselves a lot less.
otherwise BE could just say "enter for whatever you like, whenever you think you're ready..."
At the risk of causing a ruckus, that's what used to happen, and people seemed to hurt themselves a lot less.
H_J
Well-Known Member
T_E doesnt sound like such a bad idea! Im starting to feel like BE thinks everyone is complete plebs, especially intro and PN riders with the beagle thing. And we pay ridiculous money to be called plebs!! Im on a proper BE rant tonight!
FestiveSpirit
Well-Known Member
I have no clue who this person is and I am nosey, so if anyone would like to PM me I would be most grateful
jumptoit
Well-Known Member
There's a post on the BE forum on ask BE about this.
FestiveSpirit
Well-Known Member
But it doesnt say who it is....
glencol370
Active Member
Is it BE or the event secretary who checks the qualifications. On a totally different subject AN was 3rd in the Intermediate Championships on a 6 year old when the rule book says eligibility to compete in this class is 7 years old.
KatB
Well-Known Member
I'm sure there was a similar post about a horse not being qualified last year and it was later proved the combination WERE qualified due to other matters that wouldnt have been seen by the "public" (only proved by a connection of the person seeing the post though...
)......
However, if genuinely the person isnt qualified, and merely hasnt been spotted by BE, but is easily enough spotted by an eagle eyed member of HHO it kind of makes a mockery doesnt it
However, if genuinely the person isnt qualified, and merely hasnt been spotted by BE, but is easily enough spotted by an eagle eyed member of HHO it kind of makes a mockery doesnt it
kerilli
Well-Known Member
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Lisi, this is the point, the Qualifications are the absolute MINIMUM imho, it's ridiculous that they should turn a blind eye to amateurs flouting them. If it's a Pro it's slightly different, they know what they're doing.
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You cant say its ok for a pro though and not for this person when we dont really know the whole story we are just presuming from a record, we dont know anything else. if its not right to do it its not right for anyone to do it surely.
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H_J, i think there's a huge difference. a Pro is much more likely to know their horse's abilities and be honest about them, far less likely to make mistakes, more likely to ride well and not be overawed by riding at a higher level than before, for example.
i didn't say it's "ok for a pro", fwiw, i said it is "slightly different." obviously circumstances make a huge difference. iirc Polly Stockton was allowed to run at Burghley this year on a horse that wasn't fully qualified, and finished 2nd. i really don't think BE would have let a rookie do that... with very good reason imho.
we don't know the whole story about this rider but we do know how much eventing she has and hasn't done in the past. she isn't experienced beyond N level. this makes a huge difference. if this post had been about a good Pro taking an underqualified horse i think it would have fizzled out in 1 minute!
and as for telling her not to fall off... jeez. words almost fail me. must remember that one.
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Lisi, this is the point, the Qualifications are the absolute MINIMUM imho, it's ridiculous that they should turn a blind eye to amateurs flouting them. If it's a Pro it's slightly different, they know what they're doing.
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You cant say its ok for a pro though and not for this person when we dont really know the whole story we are just presuming from a record, we dont know anything else. if its not right to do it its not right for anyone to do it surely.
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H_J, i think there's a huge difference. a Pro is much more likely to know their horse's abilities and be honest about them, far less likely to make mistakes, more likely to ride well and not be overawed by riding at a higher level than before, for example.
i didn't say it's "ok for a pro", fwiw, i said it is "slightly different." obviously circumstances make a huge difference. iirc Polly Stockton was allowed to run at Burghley this year on a horse that wasn't fully qualified, and finished 2nd. i really don't think BE would have let a rookie do that... with very good reason imho.
we don't know the whole story about this rider but we do know how much eventing she has and hasn't done in the past. she isn't experienced beyond N level. this makes a huge difference. if this post had been about a good Pro taking an underqualified horse i think it would have fizzled out in 1 minute!
and as for telling her not to fall off... jeez. words almost fail me. must remember that one.
chatter1
Well-Known Member
but I guess that's the point.... it was eventually spotted by BE and then considered to be ok.....
KatB
Well-Known Member
Ah ok, so BE are aware of it?! Hmmmm, wander which one of the persons connections is in with BE then?!
oldvic
Well-Known Member
The TD has to check that the national federation of each competitor has certified that they are qualified. Carlos Paro rides for Brazil so that is the Brazilian Federation. For a British rider it is the BEF. A rider can apply to Mike E-S or the performance manager for exemtion - stating why they couldn't qualify!
Polly's horse was qualified for Burghley as World Cup qualifiers now count for 4*.
The juniors at Weston are a national competition with its own set of rules and qualifications. There is also a selection process so if someone is not considered ready, they would not be able to go. The fact that it is run round the 1* course is incidental.
Polly's horse was qualified for Burghley as World Cup qualifiers now count for 4*.
The juniors at Weston are a national competition with its own set of rules and qualifications. There is also a selection process so if someone is not considered ready, they would not be able to go. The fact that it is run round the 1* course is incidental.
chester1234
Well-Known Member
OldVic - the JRN championships are therefore run to CCI* specification, are they not? Therefore, it is the same as a CCI*, is it not? Whether it be national or an actual FEI event? Surely therefore, whichever way you look at it, it is a CCI*, whether it is on paper or not is another matter. The JRN's do the same test, XC, and SJ. Therefore, IMHO, that is CCI*.
KatB
Well-Known Member
Yes but Talavera, the 1* is a international qual, so in england, British eventing see fit to put the quals for an international event as above. However, you go to France, and they may have different qualification criteria, Australia, different again.. so a CCI* is an event open to whoever the national body see fit to allow it to be open to....
chester1234
Well-Known Member
All I'm saying is OldVic said it's a national competition - but it's still at CCI* level is my argument! Just because its a national event, does BE suddenly change their view on how ready you for what is, in all intents and purposes, a CCI?
*hic*
village idiot :D
I may have got entirely the wrong end of the stick but I think this is what you are looking for Talavera, note especially the text I have emboldened:
There are exceptions to the qualification rules and the JRN Coordinators can under exceptional circumstances fast track riders on to the JRN programme if they wish.
and also:
To qualify for the JRN Championships. The horse and rider, as a combination, must have completed two JRNs without cross country jumping penalties in their own Region and finished in the first three in one of them, and be judged, at the Coordinators discretion, ready to compete in the Championships.
This means that you will compete in an International class run under International (FEI) rules. It is the riders responsibility to make sure they are familiar with the FEI rules as they do vary in places, especially where it refers to heights, speeds and distances.
The final selection of the squad is at the Regional Coordinators discretion, taking into account the qualifications.
If there is a problem finding enough candidates qualified under the above criteria, Coordinators may use their own discretion to select their next most suitable combinations. The question of safety is paramount. Those who qualify two horses may enter both but may only ride one.
That's from the 2009 KBIS JRN Programme
So basically it's not BE changing their minds but turning it over to the JRN Co-Ordinators, who should of course know the combinations properly, to decide who is ready to do effectively a CCI*.
There are exceptions to the qualification rules and the JRN Coordinators can under exceptional circumstances fast track riders on to the JRN programme if they wish.
and also:
To qualify for the JRN Championships. The horse and rider, as a combination, must have completed two JRNs without cross country jumping penalties in their own Region and finished in the first three in one of them, and be judged, at the Coordinators discretion, ready to compete in the Championships.
This means that you will compete in an International class run under International (FEI) rules. It is the riders responsibility to make sure they are familiar with the FEI rules as they do vary in places, especially where it refers to heights, speeds and distances.
The final selection of the squad is at the Regional Coordinators discretion, taking into account the qualifications.
If there is a problem finding enough candidates qualified under the above criteria, Coordinators may use their own discretion to select their next most suitable combinations. The question of safety is paramount. Those who qualify two horses may enter both but may only ride one.
That's from the 2009 KBIS JRN Programme
So basically it's not BE changing their minds but turning it over to the JRN Co-Ordinators, who should of course know the combinations properly, to decide who is ready to do effectively a CCI*.
H_J
Well-Known Member
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and as for telling her not to fall off... jeez. words almost fail me. must remember that one.
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I wasnt aware I had said this?!
Rosiefan
Well-Known Member
H_J, K was quoting something BE are rumoured to have said.
Maybe qualifications aren't about safety in particular - more about having horses/riders of a similar standard competing against each other. Just a thought.
I do agree though that if there are rules then everyone should obey them, not just some people. Otherwise it's a free for all.
Maybe qualifications aren't about safety in particular - more about having horses/riders of a similar standard competing against each other. Just a thought.
I do agree though that if there are rules then everyone should obey them, not just some people. Otherwise it's a free for all.
H_J
Well-Known Member
Oh thats ok then
Thought maybe I had gone mad I had said something as stupid as that!!
Agree RF the rules should be followed by everyone I dont think pro's should be allowed to bed the rules just as amatuers arent allowed to.
Agree RF the rules should be followed by everyone I dont think pro's should be allowed to bed the rules just as amatuers arent allowed to.
kerilli
Well-Known Member
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H_J, K was quoting something BE are rumoured to have said.
Maybe qualifications aren't about safety in particular - more about having horses/riders of a similar standard competing against each other. Just a thought.
I do agree though that if there are rules then everyone should obey them, not just some people. Otherwise it's a free for all.
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thanks RF, yes, i was quoting someone else, sorry H_J!
i don't think quals are there to try to ensure that horses/riders of a similar standard are competing against each other. that is completely against the way the sport is run in our country. just think of any, say, Novice class (either a 1-day or a CIC or CCI, really), you could have anything from a first-timer on a home-produced horse, to a top Pro on a horse s/he's aiming for the Olympics, and every permutation in between. Even an ON is open to anyone, there's nothing to stop Tina running Miners Frolic if one if she wanted to afaik!
iirc over-qual'd horses are discouraged from running in CCI*s etc, to prevent pot-hunting.
but for the most part qualifications work upwards, to prove that horse and rider are demonstrably ready for the next level.
H_J, K was quoting something BE are rumoured to have said.
Maybe qualifications aren't about safety in particular - more about having horses/riders of a similar standard competing against each other. Just a thought.
I do agree though that if there are rules then everyone should obey them, not just some people. Otherwise it's a free for all.
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thanks RF, yes, i was quoting someone else, sorry H_J!
i don't think quals are there to try to ensure that horses/riders of a similar standard are competing against each other. that is completely against the way the sport is run in our country. just think of any, say, Novice class (either a 1-day or a CIC or CCI, really), you could have anything from a first-timer on a home-produced horse, to a top Pro on a horse s/he's aiming for the Olympics, and every permutation in between. Even an ON is open to anyone, there's nothing to stop Tina running Miners Frolic if one if she wanted to afaik!
iirc over-qual'd horses are discouraged from running in CCI*s etc, to prevent pot-hunting.
but for the most part qualifications work upwards, to prove that horse and rider are demonstrably ready for the next level.
Rosiefan
Well-Known Member
Good point about open classes - hadn't thought it through. Oh dear, safety issues are so complicated. It must be very difficult to come up with qualifying rules which are fair but do the job of protecting contestants from themselves without having some kind of testing mechanism. I sometimes think BE are between a rock and a hard place on this one.