Unrealistic pricing - horses for sale

[ihatework]

If people valued traffic-safe, sound, sensible types, then a New Forest would be worth more than a Connemara. Clearly they don't.

I’d take a Newfie over a Connie any day of the week. Seriously underestimated ponies.

 

[FlyingCircus]

I’d take a Newfie over a Connie any day of the week. Seriously underestimated ponies.

I defo am in opposite camp. I live in the NF so have met lots of foresters and wouldn't have one myself. Many of them tend to have an ungenuine streak and whilst connies can be sharp I've never come across a nasty one.

 

[scruffyponies]

If you prefer, I'll repeat my post but say Dartmoor should be worth more than welsh A, but they aren't, because people are prepared to pay for flashy but do not put a value on steady.

 

[be positive]

If you prefer, I'll repeat my post but say Dartmoor should be worth more than welsh A, but they aren't, because people are prepared to pay for flashy but do not put a value on steady.

You cannot generalise in that way, a really good Darty will be equally valued as a good sec a but there are far less of them so more a's at decent prices if you look, but there will also be more a's at the bottom end.

Much the same as the NF there are numerous connies being brought over, good had or indifferent with less available NF ponies at the top end in part because of the strict criteria of them not allowed to go over height so less 14.2's available than there are connies, the big money is always going to be for the full up ponies because they can do so many jobs but it is very hard to find a full up NF at any price, we looked a while ago but they are few and far between whereas we could find any amount of connies of sometimes questionable quality.

I have had probably 6 Nf's here in the past 15 years and they have all been genuine, generous, loved jumping and were generally tough and sound but only 1 was 14.2, the 3 connies all had issues which were not insurmountable but they were more complicated although it was probably due to less than ideal starts to their working life.

 

[Teajack]

I wish more people at the lower end (riding club / happy hacking) were prepared to pay a realistic price for a horse.
Last year I bought a 7 yr old fab Conn x for a little under £4k. She has been bred well & educated well & in my eyes is a bargain. Mostly the reaction from people is that she is expensive 😡 I think she was a bargain, hacks anywhere in company or alone, jumps a metre & can do a decent prelim test.
Where I the incentive for people to breed &produce decent horses for us not so talented or brave people that just want to have some fun

l'd be more than happy to find a made, safe horse with reasonable conformation and no major buts at 4k!

 

[Lammy]

l'd be more than happy to find a made, safe horse with reasonable conformation and no major buts at 4k!

But a made horse at that price really isn’t doable for breeders. I don’t have that much money to spend on a horse so the next one I’ll be looking for will be a Welsh or Welsh x 2/3 year old and happy to back myself as I have done with my last horse.

For 4K I’d be happy to get a nice 4 y/o which has been backed and hacked out a bit, certainly wouldn’t expect it to be made. But then a lot of riders now want something cheap they can jump on and go straight away, nobody seems willing to put much work in, or pay for the work.

 

[Orangehorse]

Some dealer friends (now retired) who did everything with their horses from point to points to eventing to hunting and show jumping always said it was much, much easier to sell a quiet plod than a decent competition horse. Their prices always seemed high, but it was the time they put into taking the horse out and about and proving it could do things. We had some really good animals from them that did what they said.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

It's an interesting dichotomy. A lot of competitive amateurs want (and therefore, buy) horses with more scope than they need - which is fine. However, when that's coupled with a tricky temperament, and not matched by rider skill (or, indeed, horsemanship), that can end really badly. Personally, I also prefer something more agricultural, less talented, with a better temperament, or at least less athletic when it does end badly.

I've seen it repeatedly over the years at the yard I'm at. They have started doing sales livery, the last one was a reasonably talented show jumper, bought by an amateur who only wanted a hack. Bonkers. The horse needs daily work, the owner wanted less. Not a good match.

I've seen clients buying totally unsuitable horses (persuaded by people with amazing ability but zero insight) then selling them on. I can think of at least four who've bought a horse that would thrive with a competetive teen but they don't have the brave pants to deal with a lively horse.

Re the decent cob, even 13 years ago, when I arrived on a yard full of KPWNs with my little wall eyed boy, there was massive discrimination and many derogatory comments. I moved yards sharpish. He's happy to do a bloody decent dressage test and scrubs up very impressively. He certainly isn't the typical steady cob, needs a wall to stop him if he ever sees a whip, likes to spook impressively at minor things (it's a cat in the distance, not a ruddy tiger!).

Is there still a premium on Irish horses? When I bought mine there seemed to be an extra grand or more tagged onto the sales price if the horse had just come look over. Ironic, really, speaking to an Irish horse agent who tells me how they're sometimes 'schooled'.

 

[DabDab]

To be honest she probably wouldn’t!
They are worth proper money if they are bred and showing the athleticism for the upper levels (pro horse) OR if they are competing low-mid level successfully and are safe to ride (amateur horse)

This is why your safe, sane low level RC allrounder & hack can achieve 6k pretty easily, which is more than your badly behaved/educated competition horse that amateurs can’t ride and pros have no time for - even if it has been manhandled around an ele test or over 1.10m

It’s a different skill to educate a RC all rounder that, but no less a skill.

Genuine badminton grassroots horses, with a bit of flash, a solid record, and reasonably clean on vetting routinely fetch 18-25k if under 10yo and 12-15k if in teenage years.

Yes true, but in the amateur general allrounder category people I think struggle to see the wood for the trees a bit. If I wanted to sell my mare the first thing I would do would be take her out to a few competitions to help sell her, because not many people would come to view a youngish horse with a lot of blood sold as just a solid hack and nice schooling prospect. If she was a cob then it would be different.

One of the most undervalued types I see advertised are things like Anglo Arabs and non competed tbs being sold as nice hacks and well schooled allrounders. The easy sellers are the ones that do what common perceptions say is written on the tin.

 

[JFTDWS]

On the discussion about cobs/natives....I absolutely disagree that hairy cobs and natives are intrinsically easier than horses with other breeding, and I think it is exactly that thinking that gets people in a pickle. In reality I know very few people that have a warmblood or a tb that they struggle to ride and handle, but I know loads of people with cobs, natives and Irish draughts that they can't cope with. Often they bought them because they thought that they would be easy.

I know half a dozen people who are dramatically over-horsed and unable to cope with their sharp warmbloods. I don't know anyone who is so over-horsed with a cob or native (currently, at least).

I don't think that all cobs and natives are intrinsically "easier", but I do think that most cold blooded horses are generally less athletic than their blooded counterparts, and though not always less sharp than other breeds, I do think the "average" cob is a lot less sharp than some of the "not really amateur rides" warmbloods which often end up in incapable amateur hands.

Obviously our experiences differ somewhat. Unsurprising, we're quite separated in terms of geography as well as experiences!

 

[Mule]

I know half a dozen people who are dramatically over-horsed and unable to cope with their sharp warmbloods. I don't know anyone who is so over-horsed with a cob or native (currently, at least).

I don't think that all cobs and natives are intrinsically "easier", but I do think that most cold blooded horses are generally less athletic than their blooded counterparts, and though not always less sharp than other breeds, I do think the "average" cob is a lot less sharp than some of the "not really amateur rides" warmbloods which often end up in incapable amateur hands.

Obviously our experiences differ somewhat. Unsurprising, we're quite separated in terms of geography as well as experiences!

I find the cold bloods are generally less reactive as well as less athletic. It's interesting what you can get with a hot/cold cross. The beast is 3/4 tb, but even though his dam was papered as ish, going by his looks I'd say she was mostly ID. He's very athletic but he has the stereotypical draught temperament. It's a brilliant mix when it goes right.

 

[JFTDWS]

I find the cold bloods are generally less reactive as well as less athletic. It's interesting what you can get with a hot/cold cross. The beast is 3/4 tb, but even though his dam was papered as ish, going by his looks I'd say she was mostly ID. He's very athletic but he has the stereotypical draught temperament. It's a brilliant mix when it goes right.

Reactive would be a reasonable alternative to "sharp" in my post above (but let's not get into the discussion about defining sharp again, for the love of all that's holy!). There are exceptions, naturally, but I think it's largely true for the most part.

 

[Leo Walker]

nobody seems willing to put much work in, or pay for the work.

And thats another issue. I pay pennies for mine, either young or other peoples screw ups. I used to be able to make them on my own but now I'm a cripple I cant, so I put money into them to get help with the bits I cant do. I spent £1000 having Bobbie broken and spent £400 in the weeks beforehand having her long reined out and about. That pretty much double what I paid for her without any of the other costs associated with keeping her.

Shes exceeded all my expectations so far, but the spending is no where near finished. She now needs ridden schooling to improve her driven dressage so I'm looking at another £50 a week for the next 3 months, as well as as many driven lessons and arena hires I can fit in.

By the time shes the equivalent of an established RC all rounder I imagine I'll be 3 or 4k in for schooling costs alone. And thats for an ordinary cobby pony type who is generally very easy and sweet with no hang ups. I'll never get that money back again. I do it because I love it. I love knowing they have been educated properly and I love seeing them improve.

There were moments when we were competing last weekend when I would have given anything for a nice steady established pony, and someone nervous would have been terrified at points. So I can see why a lot of people dont want to take on a young or green pony.

But then it comes a full circle. How many of these 4 to 7k horses are correctly educated? Not many that I have seen. And how many are sound? Not many going by the videos owners post.

I'm not sure what the answer is. This is probably my last pony and if it turns out shes not then I'll do the same again with a youngster. I'm not sure what I would do if I didnt have the skills and experience to manage that process, or the money to fund the ongoing education. Give up I imagine as the whole horse buying process just seems horrific!

 

[DabDab]

I know half a dozen people who are dramatically over-horsed and unable to cope with their sharp warmbloods. I don't know anyone who is so over-horsed with a cob or native (currently, at least).

I don't think that all cobs and natives are intrinsically "easier", but I do think that most cold blooded horses are generally less athletic than their blooded counterparts, and though not always less sharp than other breeds, I do think the "average" cob is a lot less sharp than some of the "not really amateur rides" warmbloods which often end up in incapable amateur hands.

Obviously our experiences differ somewhat. Unsurprising, we're quite separated in terms of geography as well as experiences!

I absolutely know what you're talking about - going back 10 years or so I knew to a huge amount of people with warmbloods that they couldn't ride one side of. I just don't know of many now, whereas I do know of a lot of troublesome natives and cobs (common problems are still the same though - napping, can't be left alone, won't load, won't stable well).

Come to think of it, I don't know many warmbloods at all now that aren't in competitive homes where they're fairly well managed. Maybe it's just the scene around here these days that's changed

 

[JFTDWS]

Absolutely, LW. I can't imagine how difficult it is trying to buy an established horse. Even if you have a tidy budget, I can't see how many of the advertised horses command the prices expected of them - lame, poorly schooled and all sorts. I stick to my "buy 'em young and hope like hell you like what you get at the end" approach

 

[JFTDWS]

I absolutely know what you're talking about - going back 10 years or so I knew to a huge amount of people with warmbloods that they couldn't ride one side of. I just don't know of many now, whereas I do know of a lot of troublesome natives and cobs (common problems are still the same though - napping, can't be left alone, won't load, won't stable well).

Come to think of it, I don't know many warmbloods at all now that aren't in competitive homes where they're fairly well managed. Maybe it's just the scene around here these days that's changed

Ha, well, yes... The scene is definitely changing, and there do seem to be more adult novice owners who aren't really ready for their own horse (cob, warmblood or otherwise). Obviously there are plenty who get it right too, buying a nice horse, keeping it with good support and all that, but focusing on the ones who don't... It's mostly teenagers I see over-horsed with warmblood types (who have over-estimated their own skill), though also some adults fall into the same trap. There seems to be a bit of a rift developing between the "serious competitive aspirations" types and the "windy novicey pop around a course of cross poles on a native" types, with not a lot in between. Or maybe I just don't see the in between people!? Maybe the main issue is simply with people buying a horse - any horse - before they're really competent?

 

[Flicker51]

So what would you pay for example for a rock solid gypsy coloured cob who was grat on roads in all traffic, very well schooled to elementary level dressage and competing successfully at BD regionals etc ?

 

[DabDab]

Ha, yes interesting you said that actually - I almost added to my post that the only couple of overhorsed sports horse owners I know are young people. Ambitions beyond their experience level and lack of support network I guess.

I know lots of in between type people (and I am one I guess), but I think they're often seen as failed competition riders rather than riders that just enjoy riding, building a relationship with a horse, doing a bit of this and that and want a genuinely versatile type equine to do it with. Finding horses for that category of rider is a bit of a minefield

(reply to jftd, forgot to quote...)

 

[J&S]

Well, I am going to put a spanner in the works now! I don't think it is anything to do with the horses/ponies. It is all down to the owners! An inexperienced, nervous or just plain uneducated (in the sense that they simply can't be bothered or don't want to learn) can ruin any horse or pony.
When you come to think about it, who owns the difficult cobs, NF's, Connies, WB's TB's that you know? I have seen so many difficult animals become perfectly useful when put into the right hands. I knew a wonderful old horse dealer/breaker in the NF, he always said, there are hardly any bad horses but there are a lot of bad owners! He could turn a difficult horse round and send it out again in a matter of weeks. Of course, problems can come when a horse or pony has been "processed" and the new owner simply does not put enough effort into keeping things like manners/schooling up. I also believe that some of the young "produced" horses and ponies are handled by professionals in such a manner that when they are handed over to their new owners they simply fall apart. Also, the rule of "horses for courses " should be followed - don't buy the flighty ex show jumper if you just want to do fun rides - you don't need a 16.2 hh wb x to hack round the lanes, etc etc. As some one has already said, being over horsed is just a ticket to disaster, and a very expensive ticket at that.

 

[hollyandivy123]

I sometimes wonder about breeders concentrating on breeding super sporty types when the market for the average rider is much larger than the professional market. If I want a leisure horse or to compete at the lower levels I'd want a good temperament not something talented that may be difficult.

i have always thought that a good mother/daughter share horse would be the way to go if you wanted a steady income in producing, something sane that moves with good action etc happy out in traffic but fine to pop round pony club, the "potential" to work up to elementary if desired. these would sell at a high premium, safe sane and pretty.

but i guess a lot or producers have their sites on the elite market, understandably with the corresponding price tag.

but to add to this it is about people buying the horse they need rather than the horse they think they need.

in my imagination i would go round Burghley (bar the drops)....................the reality is more pinging up to 1 m, dressage up to elementary and mouching through forestry.......but in a couple of weeks when i can hopefully get there i will be pretending the first....................

 

[ihatework]

i have always thought that a good mother/daughter share horse would be the way to go if you wanted a steady income in producing, something sane that moves with good action etc happy out in traffic but fine to pop round pony club, the "potential" to work up to elementary if desired. these would sell at a high premium, safe sane and pretty.

but i guess a lot or producers have their sites on the elite market, understandably with the corresponding price tag.

but to add to this it is about people buying the horse they need rather than the horse they think they need.

in my imagination i would go round Burghley (bar the drops)....................the reality is more pinging up to 1 m, dressage up to elementary and mouching through forestry.......but in a couple of weeks when i can hopefully get there i will be pretending the first....................

Think about the economics of it ...

Take an unbacked 4yo of the type you are thinking about .... to breed and raise it correctly to 4 years costs a minimum of 4K. To buy it at 4 may well cost a bit less - say 2.5k for the horse, time & petrol & vetting to get it home. So for sake of argument let’s say raw material costing 3k being conservative.

Bearing in mind we are talking making a living out of this for someone experienced with horses - £25-30/day is generally about what is charged to produce a horse including care/feed/training. Let’s go for lower end at £25/day (which really is not a lot if you think about it).

A riding club/mother daughter share would probably need 2 years of education before you could confidently sell it for that market.

That’s over £18,000 in training if you want it done by someone who needs to make a living.

It doesn’t include farrier/vets/worming or the risk that the horse ends up unsuitable in temperament.

So there you have it, a 20-25k 6yo.

This market expects to pay 4-5k in general with a handful looking more in the 8k bracket.

ETA - that is why people don’t do it that way. You either buy that 6yo that the novice has messed up and wants shot of - invest 3 months straightening it out and sell whilst keeping your fingers crossed it goes to someone that doesn’t let it revert to what it was before. Or you ride on the 4yo a bit and then deal with people incapable or unwilling to invest in its education once they get it home.

 

[hollyandivy123]

Think about the economics of it ...

Take an unbacked 4yo of the type you are thinking about .... to breed and raise it correctly to 4 years costs a minimum of 4K. To buy it at 4 may well cost a bit less - say 2.5k for the horse, time & petrol & vetting to get it home. So for sake of argument let’s say raw material costing 3k being conservative.

Bearing in mind we are talking making a living out of this for someone experienced with horses - £25-30/day is generally about what is charged to produce a horse including care/feed/training. Let’s go for lower end at £25/day (which really is not a lot if you think about it).

A riding club/mother daughter share would probably need 2 years of education before you could confidently sell it for that market.

That’s over £18,000 in training if you want it done by someone who needs to make a living.

It doesn’t include farrier/vets/worming or the risk that the horse ends up unsuitable in temperament.

So there you have it, a 20-25k 6yo.

This market expects to pay 4-5k in general with a handful looking more in the 8k bracket.

but i am thinking of the economics of this, i am talking the middle to high end of the market. these are the people who would like the horse to look like it would go round Burghley but in reality don't need or could cope with this type of horse. to produce a horse with this as the end market will provide more clients, to produce a horse that is mentally and physically capable of going round Burghley means there are less clients in your pool but more competition from other producers. this can be seen by the cost of a grass routes horse. but you also need to maintain the steady income whilst you hope "bobby" will make the grade and price as a 4* horse.

we appear to be going through a radical change in the horse industry, if you look at the number of yards towards the middle to top of the market who have livery vacancies, the market is down sizing were someone would have had two in full livery now they have one.

 

[WelshD]

So few people now seem to want to cope with any even quite normal 'quirks'.

How do you think I could afford my new one?

 

[ihatework]

Sorry hollyanddivvy123 I’m not understanding your post

 

[hollyandivy123]

in what sense IHW, perhaps the phrase mother/daughter share is giving the wrong impression of the horse i mean.

i'm saying that there is a part of the horse market in which a high end mother/daughter share would be a useful product as it provides a larger client base, these are not the people who are looking within the 4k bracket although who doesn't like a bargain.

that due to the equine industry changing at the moment there is a need for this type of horse, as a lot of people are down sizing their livery. i don't know what it is like in your area but yards round here which use to have a waiting list at £200+ a week full livery now have spare stables.

that although it would wonderful to aim for the high end competition market in reality you are reducing your client market and that by aiming for the top which would be grand is also very risky as we know not everyone gets there

 

[scruffyponies]

Well, I am going to put a spanner in the works now! I don't think it is anything to do with the horses/ponies. It is all down to the owners! An inexperienced, nervous or just plain uneducated (in the sense that they simply can't be bothered or don't want to learn) can ruin any horse or pony.
When you come to think about it, who owns the difficult cobs, NF's, Connies, WB's TB's that you know? I have seen so many difficult animals become perfectly useful when put into the right hands. I knew a wonderful old horse dealer/breaker in the NF, he always said, there are hardly any bad horses but there are a lot of bad owners! He could turn a difficult horse round and send it out again in a matter of weeks. Of course, problems can come when a horse or pony has been "processed" and the new owner simply does not put enough effort into keeping things like manners/schooling up. I also believe that some of the young "produced" horses and ponies are handled by professionals in such a manner that when they are handed over to their new owners they simply fall apart. Also, the rule of "horses for courses " should be followed - don't buy the flighty ex show jumper if you just want to do fun rides - you don't need a 16.2 hh wb x to hack round the lanes, etc etc. As some one has already said, being over horsed is just a ticket to disaster, and a very expensive ticket at that.

This, all the way. A good horse is very easy to ruin, no matter how carefully the groundwork has been put in.
Similarly, most cheapies will do the job just fine with a decent guiding hand to sort out anything they're not comfortable with when they arrive.

I have a stunning section D in my field, cussed awkward and therefore FTGH. His breeder and trainer no doubt did a decent job, but he was ruined by an inexperienced first owner in no time at all.

 

[ihatework]

I’m trying to understand what you mean (but failing I think!)..

So you don’t mean a typical mother daughter share, but more something that looks like a Ferrari, to be sold to someone with a Ferrari budget, but with Ford Fiesta riding ability?

Those are a very tough market to produce for.

Given you have mentioned Burghley, and given I have a reasonable feel for the event market here is how it goes ....

Raw material a little bit more - say 6-10k.
Production of an event horse circa 12k a year at lower levels, maybe 20k ish when running advanced.

Eventers in general is a numbers game. Start with 10 lower priced 4yo’s and maybe 1 is top, 2 advanced, 2 intermediate, 2 novice and 3 not worth putting a point on.

Then if you are going to sell the above the price that can be achieved is driven by one of 2 things - either how much potential they are showing for upper levels OR how easy they would be for a true amateur to ride at a lower level. If they have both you are laughing.

The problem is a large proportion of these horses are never suitable for the amateur market (but are sold to them anyway).

The production of these horses for upper level is actually quite different to the production for amateur sale - so you kind of need to cherry pick the non-4/5* horses at the beginning.

Then when you get to the point of sale and you are wanting to sell this produced event horse to an amateur who is understandability spending what appears to be a hell of a lot of money on paper, they then want the excellent record, the squeaky clean xrays as well as a temperament that will accommodate nerves, being missed at a big fence, etc. Etc.

So assuming all the above is there that 2 year produced novice horse will have cost in the region of 30-35k, a 3 year produced intermediate horse 45k ish.

The gamble is high. The market is extremely limited.

I vote buy cheap & young and learn to do the work yourself!

 

[Goldenstar]

The market will normally tell you if a horse is over priced .
If you can advertise ,it get people to see and try it it will sell if the price is right , if what you say about is true and it’s sound .
Horse is worth only want you can get someone to pay for it .
But good quality allrounders are hard to find when I bought G ( I posted about him on here for anyone interested ) I rang her within minutes of the horse appearing over there >>>
That was a Friday I viewed the horse the first day the seller was able to be there I think that was Tuesday she had had over fifty calls and was just not answering any more
Traditional 16 8yo ISH won one 90 not great basics on the flat but got good marks good jumping techinque green for age but talented 10 k
The 10k was not putting callers off .
The market finds its level

 

[Goldenstar]

I wish more people at the lower end (riding club / happy hacking) were prepared to pay a realistic price for a horse.
Last year I bought a 7 yr old fab Conn x for a little under £4k. She has been bred well & educated well & in my eyes is a bargain. Mostly the reaction from people is that she is expensive 😡 I think she was a bargain, hacks anywhere in company or alone, jumps a metre & can do a decent prelim test.
Where I the incentive for people to breed &produce decent horses for us not so talented or brave people that just want to have some fun

A horse that suits you perfectly is always a bargain whatever the price

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

If you prefer, I'll repeat my post but say Dartmoor should be worth more than welsh A, but they aren't, because people are prepared to pay for flashy but do not put a value on steady.

My Darty is as mad as a box of frogs! I wouldn't put a kid on him! His half brother was the same until gelded!

But yes in general proper darties are more sane than Welsh.