Unrideable Horse.....losing the will.

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Buckingmad

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Hey guys,

I wonder if anyone can offer any advice. I've got a 5 yr of ISH who was broken really badly last year, before I bought him I will add. I restarted him and all was going well, until he started being aggressive in the stable, charging at people with his ears back etc. We got to the point that he was walking around being ridden in an arena, quiet as a lamb. Then on New Years eve, he flipped out, for no rhyme or reason bucking and throwing himself around like he really meant it. I managed to stay on, then went to get off and he went again and I ended up in hospital.

Obviously he had some time off after this. I started him again and I Have just moved yards and he had been perfect for 2 weeks, then he started being aggressive in the stable again and then last week, all of a sudden he had an almost identical flip out when walking around the arena, but he really does mean it he wants you off. It was Totally out of the blue as he has been trotting around under saddle without a care in the world. He has been given the medical all clear by every professional I can get hold of! He gives no warning before flipping out, it's like he has psychotic breaks and had no self preservation.

Does anyone have any thoughts? I'm open to NH, sending him away, anything to sort this bloody horse out!

Thanks x x
 
Sorry this may be totally unrelated and don't mean to panic you, but the only horse I knew like this had a brain tumour :-( hopefully not for your boy but might be worth a bit of investigation. Good luck and hope he calms down for you and that it turns out to not be anything horrible.
 
I know you said he has been given the 'medical all clear', but I really think this is a pain response, especially if he's being aggressive on the ground also.

Can I ask what medical things you've had investigated?

My main suspicion would be Kissing Spines, and you would need to have his back X-rayed for definitive answer.
 
lara b said:
Sorry this may be totally unrelated and don't mean to panic you, but the only horse I knew like this had a brain tumour :-( hopefully not for your boy but might be worth a bit of investigation. Good luck and hope he calms down for you and that it turns out to not be anything horrible.
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My first thought as well.
 
I too knew a horse that would be good one minute and literally try to kill you the next, he was PTS in the end after almost killing someone, postmortem showed a brain tumour :(
 
See this tumour thing has also crossed my mind, but it seems to come about especially on the ground if you ask him to do something he doesn't want to do. Like take his empty feed bowl away. He has had 2 5 stage vettings, teeth, back and osteo done, vet is coming to do an mot next week to double check everything. Xx
 
one of the mares in our yard was like this....all pain related. Back pain, neck pain. She is also 5, tried physio, vet, new saddler, massage, nothing worked until chiro and a course of exercises.

Also heard of tumours, or growths causing similar problems, how much investigating have the vets done?

Does this horse like being stabled? .....I know that sounds stupid...but some of them are never truly happy stabled....escpecially if they are young and full of energy.
 
The first thing that came to my mind was a back issue, but then I read that you have had professional assessments done. A brain tumour could be a possibility, but I'm not going to comment on that as I have never come across a horse with a brain tumour. The inconsistency of his behaviour is interesting and puzzling, is there any indication of why he does it after approx two weeks? Are there any management/routine things that you have changed?

I think I would try to get a brain scan or similar done, also I'd contact a behaviourist. Not necessarily natural horsemanship though. What area of the UK are you in?
 
I'm in Shrops/Worcestershire. All of his routine is the same, we turn and be as to the minute as possible else he gets a bit stressed if it changes. It's almost like he finds his feet and thinks he can behave like this. Any behaviourists you can recommend would be massively appreciated.
 
I would recommend the lady who helped me with my last horse but she is in Surrey/Sussex so probably too far away. She is a vet predominantly, I would ask if your vet could recommend anyone and then go from there.
 
Tash88 said:
The first thing that came to my mind was a back issue, but then I read that you have had professional assessments done.
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I took on a horse and ended up having him pts within 1 week of getting him because he had KS, which wasn't picked up by 3 different vets, a physio and a highly respected McTimoney chiro, all of whom saw the horse regularly for 2.5 years. All of them knew about his behavioural issues (very similar to OPs horse). I got my own physio to check him before I was going to start reschooling, she took one look and told me to get his back x-rayed.

Just because no one has found any back issues yet, doesn't mean there isn't one.
 
It could 'just' be a dominance thing. I.e. the behaviour in the stable is a pre-cursor to him behaving badly when ridden. He's literally throwing his weight around because he is challenging your authority.

I had a similar situation years ago with a horse I owned. I had him for about 18months and I just about kept on top of him, was able to ride him and enjoy him. I then moved yards and he started getting more and more tricky to handle on the ground and then started napping when ridden and then bucking and it all just got worse and worse.

Eventually I sold him to a better, tougher rider and once the pecking order had been established he was as good as gold. I'm not saying you should sell yours - but it's possible that if you sort out his behaviour on the ground and are very strict with that, that he will automatically improve under saddle.
 
Hi I have an ish...chestnut mare too....anyway when i first bought her..she went through..the totally agressive phrase..turns out she wasnt broken properly, she was broken and 2 months later hunted and hunted in the harshest bits so she was terrified of a contact..any slight contact on the mouth resulted in head thrown up and bucking...she was ewe necked, anyway...after 2 months she was going lovely really good under saddle very calm to lead etc in stable...then 6 months later..stable manners were still ok but she would test me...i think because i have never been aggressive..ie. she was used to someone whacking her for moving when saddling etc but i didnt she kind of thought ohhh what can i get away with...same with riding she was great then she would flip and wait for a responce....iv had her 2 years now and shes fab..but we have gone through stages of her trying to dominate me....once she realised my kindness could not be confused with submission we are ok again.... so maybe the said horse is testing the water...i had all medically stuff ruled out and cost a fortune in diff diagnostics (altho she did have ulcers) but most of her behaviour was a learned responce from her past...luckily for her i like her and have a lot of patience lol !
 
My first guess is pain too. Does he ever have these episodes when he's turned out alone? Reason I ask is many years ago one on the yard I was at took up bolting for absolutely no reason & it was completely out of character. What checks were available then were done & the horse was turned away. On more than one occasion it ran straight through the post & rail fence, again, with no logical reason. It was pts & it did have a tumour.
On the other hand, I've met one or two that just want to go to any lengths to dominate you.
Is there any increase in work load in the days before he starts playing up?
 
It may well be pain and you just have not tracked it down yet.
A friend bred a horse who had bouts of awful behaviour one day she was walking down the road it flipped and went over a hedge backward and fell twenty feet into a field luckily my friend had no serious injuries but decided enough was enough and PTS the vet went to the kennels to do a pm because she was curious to see if she could find anything poor horse had a brain tumour .
Be careful no horse is worth serious injury I can tell you that from Personal experiance.
 
lara b said:
Sorry this may be totally unrelated and don't mean to panic you, but the only horse I knew like this had a brain tumour :-( hopefully not for your boy but might be worth a bit of investigation. Good luck and hope he calms down for you and that it turns out to not be anything horrible.
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I believe this is a strong possibility - I had a warmblood mare that went the same way, and the people I sold it to eventually bred a foal from her and then had her PTS.

She would be fantastic for weeks and then suddenly totally flip out. Bronco bucking and galloping around until she was exausted. It was very frightening and sad to watch. Her temperement was strange too - loving and sweet and then turning into a monster.
 
The tumour thing had also crossed my mind, its the stangeness of the behaviour.
I would suggest kissing spine would be unlikely to make her aggressive on the ground, my ex's mare had it, and she was not aggressive with it, although it may differ with different horses, and she has un unbelievable tolerance to pain, the vet couldn't believe how bad hers was and she was still being ridden without trying to kill anyone.
Another horse he had went crazy shortly after he bought her, they did x rays etc, and couldn't find much, so it could just be plain naughtyness.
I would be tempted to trial some bute, although from what you have said there is some time between ridden episodes. Do you lunge before riding etc?
 
faerie666 said:
I took on a horse and ended up having him pts within 1 week of getting him because he had KS, which wasn't picked up by 3 different vets, a physio and a highly respected McTimoney chiro, all of whom saw the horse regularly for 2.5 years. All of them knew about his behavioural issues (very similar to OPs horse). I got my own physio to check him before I was going to start reschooling, she took one look and told me to get his back x-rayed.

Just because no one has found any back issues yet, doesn't mean there isn't one.
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I was going to say kissing spine.....seen this turn the quietest horse into a monster through the pain.

Unfortunately, as has been proven time and again, a 5 stage vetting doesn't guarantee a sound horse. Best to get the vet back out and start again trying to work out what's going on.....best of luck
 
Once all possible medical problems, (tumour, KS etc) are ruled out, could it just then be put down to the fact he may be a nasty tempered horse that doesn't want to be ridden? He bucked you off, badly, then he was given time off, so on that occasion he won, and he will remember that for next time.
 
Oh no my heart goes out to you. I've recently taken on a horse(well pony) that's breaking in was pretty much what you described :eek: He's had NO groundwork at all was backed at 3years 1 month and it was a case of 3 hour hacks once to twice a week at full pelt with jumping whilst on a hack. we're currently completely restarting, and once he's going hes great (we're only doing groundwork first) but it takes about 10 mins of bolshy bad mannered behaviour - it's not fun.

As for the radical changes in behaviour - been there too i'm afraid. my mum bought a horse (stunning belgium wb eventer type ) in 2003. he was vetted by our vet (very good and trust worthy) there WAS Causes for concern when vetting (namely his weight as he was very underweight) that our vet reported the seller (who would tell you he was private seller but was a dealer) the horse passed all other stages of the vetting at that time. over the years she had him (he was pts in 2009) he was only ridden 10 times (8 of which were by me). he was continually lame/falling over etc - my mum was also a fair weather rider - not that confident and had over horsed herself (but she knew everything you know:rolleyes: ) Since 2006 I had been calling for him to be PTS as he was having episodes as I called them. fine for months on end - then changed at the snap of a finger to agressive and dangerous, he also had what my mum was treating as mud fever, on his legs permenantly and always lame. she told the vet it would heal up then come back in the rain so the vet beleived her (she's very convincing). eventually she went on holiday an I left to look after them (ie night before, oh I;m away for two weeks tomorrow you have to look after my two horses sort of thing). well the first day he was fine one second then went ape and started to try and kill anyone who was near him. jumped the post and rail fencing - destroyed it, jumped onto a busy A road ran about like a numpty etc. then half an hour later - very lame acted like nothing had happened. I called the vet out - laid down some home truths about his conditions and behaviour etc. the vet was agast as had never been told any of this and was not aware his legs had never cleared up of infection etc. he done investigations and he beleived a brain tumor *may* be the cause but could NOT say for def and further investigation would have to be done unfortunately, as I was not owner, and could not authorise anything more at that point. I would like to say he was dangerous and would have killed someone when in this catatonic state.

It took nearly 6 months for her to do something, despite me and the vet on at her every day to pursue this and it was only after he had destroyed the stable walls completely (that they almost fell down) that she done something. and Yes it was a Brain Tumor - he was pts the same day of finding.

incidently his behaviour changes were mainly doing ground work (well he was never ridden). I don't want to scare you but please get your vet to check this one out as if it is something like this diagnosis is needed early for your safety.
 
I don't actually believe that horses will act this way due to temperament. I suspect that the time off allowed his pain to ease somewhat and then after a few sessions, the pain returned. I know for myself that if I rest my back I can become pain free and then when I go back to work remain so for a few days before the pain returns with a vengence. I suspect either spasmotic pain from kissing spines or similar, or pain from a badly fitting saddle. The fact that a saddle has been checked by a saddler (don't know if this one has) is of no significance to me, as I have seen saddlers regularly cripple horses through badly fitting saddles. I always want to check for myself. OP have you had his saddle checked? If so, can we see some pictures of it on the horse and girthed up from the side, back and front? Thanks.
 
I'm "attempting" to back/break a horse like this at the minute.
He was taken away from his mother far too early- pretty sure his owner said it was 2 months he was taken away he also sustained a lot of injury through running at fence and into gates and spent most of his first years in the stable without much civilization so to speak. The vet advised to put him down but they kept on and all wounds have healed fully now. He was gelded at 4- should have been done earlier in my opinion.
He is now 6. Very spooky and flighty. Will be sooky and lovely the one minute and backing up into his stable the next- for no reason.
Some days he is the most child friendly animal, but the next I don't go anywhere near him.
Recently I've been tacking him up and un tacking him etc- getting him used to it.
He was standing still quiet as a lamb and I went to fetch (something? no idea what) Next minute he is flipping out throwing himself at the ground. For no reason.?

I honestly think he is mentally damaged from his "foalhood" so to speak and all the injury. Like Rauol Moat, just one thing made him rampage. Something just flips inside them.

I'd hedge a bet on either pain that you have not yet found or being mentally damaged, through pain or anything really. The tumors I have no experience with but it sounds plausible, as does the kissing spines but I would have thought that would have been noticed.

All the best, keep us updated!
 
ETA, c&p answer to a different thread.

OP I had a similar mare. We always said she was psychotic. Her behaviour was caused by her reaction to feed. What do you feed your horse on?
 
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