Unshod to me but "Barefoot" to others!

Pale Rider said:
Are people just a bit thick on this forum or what?
How many times has this barefoot v shod thing been done on here, and still people are saying they don't understand, or I ride on the road, or it wouldn't suit my horse, or my farrier doesn't like it.

Frustrating or what.
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Different people join this forum every day, so the same discussion takes place again. The clue was in the title of the thread PR. Why did you open it?
 
It does feel a bit like deja vu doesn't it? Especially when we've just recently done a couple of barefoot threads. No need to open it though, and no need to post.
Op - if you search on barefoot there are other threads you might find interesting.
I've got to admit, for this evening I can't be bothered to explaine all the stuff I've explained again, but that's my choice, and you'll find it all on the older threads anyway. :-)
 
ofcourseyoucan said:
my farrier shoes those that need it, and trims those who dont and are happy unshod. all feet look lovely and horses are sound and balanced. seen some shocking trims from trimmers! Farriers train for many years, and do a lot of anatomy. not something that can be done in a few weeks. FARRIER every time for me whether shod or not.
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Ask your farrier how many dissections he has done. Most farriers have never done one. UKNHCP trained trimmers do dissections, I can't speak for the others. But as far as foot function goes, especially of barefoot feet, they are taught far more than any farrier.

A farrier is only taught to trim hardworking barefoot horses if his master has some on his books. Most don't, so they never actually get to see horses like mine, who do endless roadwork and hunt with no shoes on. Trimmers do, all the time.

Don't get me wrong, there are some farriers who are great barefoot trimmers. But they didn't learn it at farriery school.

Did your farrier every try to advise you how you might get the ones that "needed shoes" not to need them? A trimmer will do that, most farriers won't, they will just shoe the moment a horse goes footie. Which is why so many horses which were fine without shoes all winter are shod in spring/summer when "the ground goes hard and they can't cope". I reckon most of those horses will have actually gone footie because they have too much spring grass and cutting the grass down would be better for their health than nailing on some steel.
 
Farrier does 12weeks forge woRk and a bit on anatomy. All this lots of anatomy lark is utter brainwash. Anyone can blinking do anatomy. My 8 yr old students can do that. What Anatomy is it? Super duper horse with shoeson anatomy? Course that's dead different.
 
cptrayes. i do NOT need to question my farrier. having lived with him for many years he is very keen to trim not shoe mine. he is extremely well qualified, does hours of CPD, has 5 apprentices under him, has his own horses. he is sadly now my ex but still does all my horses feet. do you question your gp and your dentist? a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. what suits some does NOT suit all. get a life other than your horses feet. and i darersay your own trimming may well be improved with some training.
 
ofcourseyoucan said:
cptrayes. i do NOT need to question my farrier. having lived with him for many years he is very keen to trim not shoe mine. he is extremely well qualified, does hours of CPD, has 5 apprentices under him, has his own horses. he is sadly now my ex but still does all my horses feet. do you question your gp and your dentist? a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. what suits some does NOT suit all. get a life other than your horses feet. and i darersay your own trimming may well be improved with some training.
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I agree that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, which is why it is so frustrating when people condemn things out of hand without fully investigating them. There is some excellent scientific research being done on the function of feet by the likes of Dr Robert Bowker and I find that barefoot researchers tend to embrace learning about the foot whereas many people rely on the farrier 'doing his job' and think no more about it. An owner should have an understanding of hoof form and function and understand why a farrier/trimmer is doing what they are doing in my opinion and a good professional would support and encourage this.
I do question my gp and dentitst if I have concerns or doubts, and without doing so my daughter would not be here today. I consider it foolish to rely wholeheartedly on someone else's opinion if I have evidence to the contrary.

If you have a sound and happy horse why on earth would you change your method of trimming? Makes no sense at all to me.
 
ofcourseyoucan said:
cptrayes. i do NOT need to question my farrier. having lived with him for many years he is very keen to trim not shoe mine. he is extremely well qualified, does hours of CPD, has 5 apprentices under him, has his own horses. he is sadly now my ex but still does all my horses feet. do you question your gp and your dentist? a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. what suits some does NOT suit all. get a life other than your horses feet. and i darersay your own trimming may well be improved with some training.
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I question my GP. My GP missed the fact I had a torn tendon and agreed I should be treated for whiplash (car accident 3 years ago). Only when I went back time and time again complaining of the same pain... to "shut me up" he sent me for an MRI. I needed surgery.

That's just one example! Anyway, we should question our Drs... everything is done via computer and the prescription he says he will give isn't necessarily what you will get. Why? PCT Script-switching. Now implemented in most PCTs as cost-saving. You need an effective statin? You'll get the cheapest. You need anti-hypertensives? You'll get beta-blockers. Not best-practice nowadays but the alternative is £3 more expensive. Yet, we're happy to put our trust in these overpaid secretaries... what was the point of going through med-school when you can't even make clinical decisions? Because you get quite a large pay-packet if you hit your QOF targets.

I don't have a dentist... yet.
 
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touchstone said:
An owner should have an understanding of hoof form and function and understand why a farrier/trimmer is doing what they are doing in my opinion and a good professional would support and encourage this.
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Yes, I left this bit out as a 'difference'. I always find it amusing how many new to barefoot suddenly find hooves just THE most intersting part of a horse for a while at least. :D That says a lot me about how many owners just do what they're advised and push responsibility on to Professionals but once they gain some knowledge they really get enthused and become eager to try and improve things even more for their horses.
Disclaimer... I am not saying people not BF don't do the best for their horses btw. I'm saying once owners have more knowledge they begin to take more responsibility themselves, which, I firmly believe, is where the buck stops when you own a horse.
 
Although I am firmly in the 'farrier only for my horses' camp, I quite agree that some farriers are not particularly good at their job, some of the feet I see around here are frankly appalling - and they have been trimmed and shod by farriers.
IMO it is the owner's responsibility to know what a well-balanced foot should look like and why and then choose a farrier who will maintain that balance. Unfortunately many novice owners do not have this knowledge, so accept whatever the farrier does unquestioningly.
I also agree that some farriers insist that a horse needs to be shod, in order to keep the price up. I bought a horse recently, the former owner told me that her farrier said that the horse needed to be shod all round. My farrier took the back shoes off for the introduction process and tells me that she is absolutely fine to remain unshod behind. It is quite possible that after a longer time on our good diet that we will also remove her front shoes.
As to cost, our farrier charges £20 per trim, a neighbour who employs a 'trimmer' pays £60.
 
I agree with pearl about owners taking responsibility and not relying on farrier, trimmer and vet for everything.

I've been scared by farriers before but most I have met are kind considerate and very knowledgeable... Shame there are some that let the side down and it's when people encounter these individuals, the experience is a bad one and you lose that trust.

Im waiting for the day when it will all just come together as one, and we forget we ever had these fights over farrier and trimmer because I'm sure what we all really want is performing healthy horses and feet are just one factor.
 
None of this is brain surgery, anyone who keeps horses should understand the principles of both barefoot and shod and the pros and cons of both.

I can and have shod horses but having looked at both would now never shoe.

For some people shoeing is the best option for them, as shod horses need less skill in the management.

People who go down the doesn't suit my horse are wrong, its them not the horse it doesn't suit.

There may be the odd horse that benefits from shoes, but I bet they are so rare, no one on the H&H forum has seen one.
 
cptrayes: Quote :
Did your farrier every try to advise you how you might get the ones that "needed shoes" not to need them? A trimmer will do that, most farriers won't, they will just shoe the moment a horse goes footie. Which is why so many horses which were fine without shoes all winter are shod in spring/summer when "the ground goes hard and they can't cope". I reckon most of those horses will have actually gone footie because they have too much spring grass and cutting the grass down would be better for their health than nailing on some steel

Of course a trimmer will do that.........that's how he gets more business! Does a trimmer ever decide the horse will be better with shoes? I would suggest they probably are less willing to do that.

As has been said in this thread this subject has been done to death on this forum......there again most topics have I suppose. ;)
 
Im waiting for the day when it will all just come together as one, and we forget we ever had these fights over farrier and trimmer because I'm sure what we all really want is performing healthy horses and feet are just one factor.
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where is an applauding smiley when you need one :D:D

well said tallyho


I guess I have kind had nearish that, I have been fortunate over the last ten years

had a wondeful farrier that took shoes off Taz soon as she could be handled enough to do it. He trimmed her feet and I watched and learned from him as well as researching about nutrition, hoofboots etc . It was us working together ( did a little tidying up between his visits) that got her feet fit to do this

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He had tried with Bonns previous owner to go barefoot but not managed. However when we worked together with her it worked ...she has been barefoot 8 years now ... and is 20 years young. He also asked my advice about hoofboots when a pony he was working with had feet so bad it could not keep shoes on... he was not so egotistical as to think he knew all the answers to every problem and recognised that sometimes other people just might be able to do something he cant .... no matter how good a farrier he is.

Our next farrier was also great at keeping the horses barefoot and I learnt form him too ..........but by then I had heard more about responsible trimmers ( had balked at strasser et al :mad: ) and when farrier was extremely busy started to have barefoot trimmer come too.... and I learnt even more about my horses feet from her. When my farrier retired trimmer took over more and more as farriers quite hard to find at the time our way.

gradually I did more and more between visits and trimmer less and less.

not only was she happy with what I was doing this was verified by a master farrier who visited the yard one day for another horse and I asked him to look to see if anything needed doing to Taz ...without telling him anything else.

Nope , they look good he said !



We need to all have / share knowledge and work together for the benefit of our horses !
 
Aces_High said:
I do not know anything on the "barefoot" subject and would not choose to embrace it for my horses. Other than as I've said above when the horses are being left unshod and my farrier has trimmed their feet.

The question I have, if you want to ride your horse unshod, why not ask your farrier to trim it's feet?? That's where I get confused. I wouldn't get a plumber out to fix my electrics.....

Anyway I am posting this as I would like to hear some opinions. I'd rather no one flew off the handle at me for not wanting to embrace "trimmers." I am only interested in opinions and a good hearty discussion :) .
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I wonder if you'd be more willing to embrace it if faced with, for example, a horse diagnosed with navicular that has exhausted all conventional treatment and is still lame...? Would you then consider giving it a go as a last resort before PTS? Or would you still believe it rubbish and PTS without exploring the option?
For lots of us that how it started, we tried it and got our horses back, the horses that the vets and farriers had told us they couldn't fix that we're now out hacking, competing, hunting etc etc on..
And in many cases poor farriery contributed to the problem in the first place because we trusted our farriers to do a fantastic job.

Getting a plumber to do your electrics is a poor analogy, farriers and trimmers both train to deal with feet and despite popular belief most trimming courses (for people wanting to adopt it as a career rather than an owners management courses) are longer than 5 days or 7 weeks.

And we should constantly question every professional that we come across, my vet might have the training and experience but I know my horse better than he does, likewise I know my body better than my GP who sees once in a blue moon for 5 minutes.
Any professional worth his salt should be happy to share their knowledge and explain how they've made the diagnosis / decision.
 
This is an article I think that demonstrates knowledable trimming at work .......not put up to put trimmers above farriers....... a great one of either persuasion will look at issues like this and see them for what they are.

my only quiestion however would be that if the said horses were shod would the uneveness have been spotted because the "plating" had not been till that point ?


Edited to add... sorry pics did not copy across

Did I do that?

Rider Influenced Foot Development


In my previous practice, I had a client in New York in which I cared for their twelve horses. I had been caring for these horses for several months, when I experienced a revelation.

Let me begin by saying that I had been fortunate to be following up on a very talented DAEP; the horses had very few issues. Nearly all the horses were doing well.

It should be noted that it was the middle of winter when I took over the farm, and that the horses were not in training. The spring show season was quickly approaching, and the horses had been in training for about 8 weeks.

Here is what happened.

I began work on the first horse, and upon completing a spectrum of usability, I made note of a lateral (outside) mechanical/metabolic flare in the right hind foot, and slightly under run lateral heel. Flare is a bending of the wall. In addition, I noted that both hind toes were a bit dubbed (being worn off), with the right hind having its breakover slightly more lateral than the left hind.

After discussing the dubbing with the trainer, it was determined that dubbing was in fact less severe than it had been on my last visit. The trainer felt that the horses were working better, and as a result had more suspension to their gaits with less dubbing of their toes.

I proceeded on the second horse of the day, and upon completing a Spectrum of Usability, I found myself making note of a lateral mechanical/metabolic flare to the right hind foot, and a slightly under run lateral heel. Once again, there was some dubbing evidenced, but again less than noted on my previous visit. Again, the breakover on the right hind was slightly lateral when compared to the left hind. OK, one horse, two horses interesting, but not improbable. It did peak my interest just the same.

The third horse, a Dutch Warmblood in training just like the previous two, and just like the previous two horses there was lateral mechanical/metabolic flare in the right hind foot, and a slightly under run lateral heel. I can accept one horse, even two horses, but not three. There was something going on here that warranted further investigation. Even though I had done a gait review of each horse prior to trimming them, I wanted to take a closer look.

I had each horse worked in hand in the indoor school. I noted that each horse platted with the right hind foot (tracked towards the opposite fore foot) when asked to work clock wise. The inside foot should follow a track that places it slightly closer to the horse's center line, but it should not pass over the center line. In those horses that are tracking correctly, the flight arc of each hind foot will be the same. It should be noted that there was no sign of lameness, but they were showing definite signs of asymmetrical muscle development.

I continued to work through seven horses that day, completing spectrums for each. It was noted that each horse that was currently in training showed some sign of asymmetrical development behind.

I hypothesized that the changes in the right hind foot of each horse was the result of rider influence. I had a talk with the trainer and discovered that all of the horses showing changes to the right hind foot were being ridden by the same person. I was also informed that the rider had a history of injury that may have had an effect on their own balance.

I asked the rider to exercise each horse, while I took note of how each tracked up behind. Each horse was worked in a large figure eight. Every horse exercised showed platting of the right hind when asked to go clock wise, but showed no tendency to plat when asked to go counter clock wise.



Above photograph shows right hind platting.

I then asked the rider to apply mild pressure to their left leg when asking the horse to circle to the right. I was basically asking them to bend the horse a bit less. The result was that the horse tracked up straighter with the right hind (inside hind). The change was so noticeable that it could be measured. The change in foot placement was nearly four inches. Yet the rider felt that the horse was actually executing the bend more smoothly.

Apparently what had happened was that the rider had developed a habit of allowing the horse to bulge through its left rib cage while tracking clock wise. This in turn caused the right hind to follow a line that placed the foot far past the center line of the horse. With each stride, excess pressure was being applied to the lateral heel of the right hind foot. With a little investigation we believed that we had discovered the cause, allowing us to come up with a game plan that would help to alleviate the problem.




The Plan.

The rider would work to maintain balance when asking the horse to bend to the right. She would continue to develop techniques to improve the way she asks for the bend. She would be utilizing slow motion video to review her progress. She had contacted her saddle fitter to evaluate saddle fit, and would work with her physical therapist to help her develop better muscle symmetry in her own frame.

This experience made it very clear that rider influence has an enormous influence on foot development. Remembering that heel conformation is related directly to cartilage development, and that cartilage development is directly related to pressure. Changes to cartilage resulting from incorrect pressure, result in the poor development of the heels. There is only so much we can do with a trim. Once we have achieved balance to the Internal Arch Apparatus (internal structures of the foot), it is our responsibility to determine what needs to be done to aid the horse in maintaining or returning health to the foot, via the appropriate amount of correct pressure. Watch your horses closely, and don't overlook rider influence on foot development.

Above photograph shows before (May) and after (August). Note how toe off has improved.


Follow up:

The horses described in this article were on a four week trimming cycle. Follow up visits showed that the rider's efforts had been rewarded. After completing a Spectrum of Usability (foot evaluation) on each horse in question, it was confirmed that no flares were in evidence.

The horses are now under the care of two exceptionally talented DAEP's, and all three horses are now competing at FEI 4th level dressage and doing very well.
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ofcourseyoucan said:
cptrayes. i do NOT need to question my farrier. having lived with him for many years he is very keen to trim not shoe mine. he is extremely well qualified, does hours of CPD, has 5 apprentices under him, has his own horses. he is sadly now my ex but still does all my horses feet. do you question your gp and your dentist? a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. what suits some does NOT suit all. get a life other than your horses feet. and i darersay your own trimming may well be improved with some training.
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You don't need to question your farrier and yet it is you who has horses who cannot work without shoes, not me.

Do I question my GP and my dentist? Too right I do. Especially my dentist. I question everyone who does a job where it is financially in their interests to do one procedure rather than another. I question every human who might have made a human mistake or have an unconscious human prejudice.

Your farrier has 5 apprentices. Good for him. Just goes to show how little real training they get if he can have five at one time. None of them are learning how to get the more difficult ones to perform without shoes are they, then? They are just being taught to put shoes on any footie horse, perpetuating the whole thing that started the "barefoot trimmer" movement in the first place.

My horses think my trimming's fine thanks :)
 
I have 2 ponies barefoot and 1 who is shod. During the winter, my competition (shod) horse has all his shoes off and he goes unshod. So I see all sides. My barefoot trimmer has never ever claimed I could keep my competition horse unshod - she understands that it just wouldnt work (I need studs!). Its funny how everyone seems to think barefoot trimmers are so badly trained, I guess they vary hugely (much like farriers!) because our one is brilliant and she seriously knows her stuff. She looks at how the hoof is shaped etc. and trims accordingly. A farrier simply trims a hoof in preparation for a shoe, so puts no effort into the horses comfort or any issues. No offence, but ALL farriers dislike barefoot trimmers, although saying that I know of 2 in my area who are very much into it - one locally is a normal farrier but his girlfriend is a barefoot trimmer!

I think most haters of barefoot simply dont understand how its different. But the way they trim is better for the horse than a farriers method. From a different angle - I dont see why so many people have their horses shod! Happy hackers etc. could easily go unshod/barefoot whatever but either way so many horses dont actually NEED shoes. I wish I could keep shoes off my competition horse, they're horrid things but until BE and BSJA allow some decent hoof boots which I can screw studs into then I have no choice!
 
maggiesmum said:
I wonder if you'd be more willing to embrace it if faced with, for example, a horse diagnosed with navicular that has exhausted all conventional treatment and is still lame...? Would you then consider giving it a go as a last resort before PTS? Or would you still believe it rubbish and PTS without exploring the option?
For lots of us that how it started, we tried it and got our horses back, the horses that the vets and farriers had told us they couldn't fix that we're now out hacking, competing, hunting etc etc on..
And in many cases poor farriery contributed to the problem in the first place because we trusted our farriers to do a fantastic job.

Getting a plumber to do your electrics is a poor analogy, farriers and trimmers both train to deal with feet and despite popular belief most trimming courses (for people wanting to adopt it as a career rather than an owners management courses) are longer than 5 days or 7 weeks.

And we should constantly question every professional that we come across, my vet might have the training and experience but I know my horse better than he does, likewise I know my body better than my GP who sees once in a blue moon for 5 minutes.
Any professional worth his salt should be happy to share their knowledge and explain how they've made the diagnosis / decision.
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Agree with above, these threads are like a never ending circle, those who dont want to open there mind still dont & probably never will. Why are there so many closed minded folk on the horse world??

I choose to be open minded around horses in all aspects, my KWPN who had a less than a 50% chance of coming sound & is now perfectly sound BF. He was remidially shod prior & it was a disaster.

I have a TB who has the most difficult feet but through going BF ive been able to get a diagnosis as he kept suffering very low grade Lammi. He has got Cushings & has started Medication. He really doesnt look at all like a Cushings sufferer, but due to being BF i firmly believe that i was seeing the signs well before it got to a make or break stage. I was able to persuade my vet to test him due to the above evidance. Vet really believed there was no chance he was suffering from EMS or Cushings.

BF is not the be all & end all, but i do wish people could be a bit more open minded. I have no problems with Farriers at all, it's my own choice not to use one as i couldnt find one i was happy with so what!

I do whole heartedly agree BF is harder for owners than the horse. Many who have failed have done so because they havent had the right support.

If you dont want to be open minded thats fine also but why pick on those who are!
 
I have one horse who wears front shoes but the rest do not wear shoes. I've used the same farrier for years now and he is superb. He treats each of my horses individually and does whatever he feels is best for the horse and its workload. It's rare that any of mine need shoes and they are all 100% sound. The new one with the front shoes on is a young competition horse and she came with shoes on. Her feet look good and strong so we will probably have the shoes taken off after the competition season is over.
 
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