Unsoundness symptoms. Thoughts?

[Wagtail]

Big 17 hh warmblood has exceptionally floaty big trot and considerable overtrack. This has largely remained unchanged, except that I now notice that he lands toe first in trot and flat in walk. But I don't know if this is a new thing as only been looking so closely since he has been exhibiting symptoms. Walk has always been very pokey and pottery (had him here 18 months). Really small strides for his size. I have always noticed that in walk he has a shorter stride length right hind. This is more prominent now, but some days a lot better than others.

A few months ago he started skipping behind in canter especially on the left rein. Then he started napping when ridden and refusing to take the rein forwards, kicking out and swishing tail. Now will not tolerate any contact, but is better if I put rider on the lunge. He has started slipping occasionally behind even in the arena with a good surface.

He has seen vet nd physio several times. Vet said he successfully blocked at his hocks (though I was there and didn't see much difference). He has had steroid injections to both hocks and tildren with no improvement. Vet and physio are stumped. I mentioned the toe first landing to the vet and she seemed unconcerned. He has slight soreness behind withers, and poll. Tight hamstrings.

Next step would be to xray back and possibly bone scan. But any ideas?

I'm thinking SI dysfunction and possible foot balance/pain issues. He's not really lame per se and so he is difficult for vets to assess. Thanks

 

[Wagtail]

Sorry, meant to post in veterinary section.

 

[Spring Feather]

SI seems a likely cause but really without full investigations it could be a myriad of things, even down to ringbone which can sometimes present itself in a similar fashion.

 

[Wagtail]

Thanks. I haven't noticed any ringbone but will have a good look. I think he really needs a full investigation at Rossdales. But it is difficult when his problems seem to get a bit better every now and then and then his owner hangs fire. I find these sorts of cases when there is just a general feeling that things are not right, to be the most frustrating. I have even wondered about ulcers, but he started with symptoms at the end of the summer when he was still out 24/7 and is fed adlib hay, is a good weight with a healthy sheen.

 

[Spring Feather]

I do sometimes think that todays vets are a little too eager to always blame these oddities on hocks and then shoot on down the injecting hocks for months on end. When often it's not anything to do with the hocks. Just my musings for the day I hope you and the owner do find out what it could be although I suspect it may be a long haul.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

You'll think I'm crackers but what else does he eat?

 

[Ilovefoals]

Hind suspensories?

 

[Auslander]

Hind suspensories?

I was thinking the same - am going through the rehab at the moment! Did the vet specifically block the suspensories - Alf had his hocks blocked and went much sounder, but when we blocked the suspensories, he turned into a different horse.
I'd also be suspicious of the sacroiliac, particularly if there does turn out to be a suspensory issue - it seems that suspensory problems are very often related to SI issues

 

[micramadam]

Just a thought and I may be spouting a lot of rubbish but have you had the hips/pelvis checked. His not yours! :
My sick bay ranger mare had something similar and it was an unstable pelvis. Not sure if this can happen in a gelding
The osteo treated her a couple of times and we have found the fitter she is the better she moves. The mare not the osteo !

 

[Wagtail]

I do sometimes think that todays vets are a little too eager to always blame these oddities on hocks and then shoot on down the injecting hocks for months on end. When often it's not anything to do with the hocks. Just my musings for the day I hope you and the owner do find out what it could be although I suspect it may be a long haul.

I think you are right. His xrays were really clean but vet was determined.

You'll think I'm crackers but what else does he eat?

Just Pure feeds easy or pure feeds working (when he's IS working). Nothing else.

Hind suspensories?

I was thinking the same - am going through the rehab at the moment! Did the vet specifically block the suspensories - Alf had his hocks blocked and went much sounder, but when we blocked the suspensories, he turned into a different horse.
I'd also be suspicious of the sacroiliac, particularly if there does turn out to be a suspensory issue - it seems that suspensory problems are very often related to SI issues

They have been scanned and are good. I thought that too, but no.

Just a thought and I may be spouting a lot of rubbish but have you had the hips/pelvis checked. His not yours! :
My sick bay ranger mare had something similar and it was an unstable pelvis. Not sure if this can happen in a gelding
The osteo treated her a couple of times and we have found the fitter she is the better she moves. The mare not the osteo !

Not other than by palpation. No xrays or scans, no.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Sorry I don't know what the ingredients of those feeds are but I do know of at least one horse whose intermittent lameness was cured by a change of diet. I would be tempted to feed this horse only on hay/lage with not supplements or treats of any kind for a few weeks and see if there is any difference in his way of going.

 

[Flame_]

Is he the same loose/lunged in a headcollar, or does he move more freely until you add tack/rider/contact/etc?

 

[putasocinit]

Cruelly the best way to get a proper assessment is to work him until he is at least 2/10 lame then vets can get a proper assessment and blocks, lunge if need be, but check out the balancing of the hoof, needs to land heel first, possibly long toes and long heels?

 

[cptrayes]

Xray his neck, Wagtail. Some of this is how my wobbler started to go wrong. The floaty trot is actually a wobbler symptom - it gives them more time to get their feet in the right place if they push themselves higher into the air in the trot.

Mine presented as hock spavin lameness (had lumps) but never failed flexion tests. Went toe first landing in walk. Began to refuse to go forward into the contact. Lost his flying changes and changed legs in canter at odd times. Occasionally "fell off" his hind legs. Shorter stride length left hind. Was a 17 hh big muscled warmblood, as were all the examples I found of late onset wobblers.

Too many similarities for comfort here , how old is the horse?

 

[Wagtail]

Xray his neck, Wagtail. Some of this is how my wobbler started to go wrong. The floaty trot is actually a wobbler symptom - it gives them more time to get their feet in the right place if they push themselves higher into the air in the trot.

Mine presented as hock spavin lameness (had lumps) but never failed flexion tests. Went toe first landing in walk. Began to refuse to go forward into the contact. Lost his flying changes and changed legs in canter at odd times. Occasionally "fell off" his hind legs. Shorter stride length left hind. Was a 17 hh big muscled warmblood, as were all the examples I found of late onset wobblers.

Too many similarities for comfort here , how old is the horse?

Oh heck, I hope not. He is twelve, will be thirteen this year. Will certainly push to get his neck xrayed too.

 

[Wagtail]

Sorry I don't know what the ingredients of those feeds are but I do know of at least one horse whose intermittent lameness was cured by a change of diet. I would be tempted to feed this horse only on hay/lage with not supplements or treats of any kind for a few weeks and see if there is any difference in his way of going.

The pure easy, which he is currently on is mollasses and cereal free. Just straw and grass chaff with a balancer.

Is he the same loose/lunged in a headcollar, or does he move more freely until you add tack/rider/contact/etc?

He is better lnged than with the weight of a rider (rider is less than nine stone though). But he is still as bad in canter, going disunited and skipping/bunny hopping behind.

Cruelly the best way to get a proper assessment is to work him until he is at least 2/10 lame then vets can get a proper assessment and blocks, lunge if need be, but check out the balancing of the hoof, needs to land heel first, possibly long toes and long heels?

Thanks. He is being lunged at least 4 times a week in the equi ami with 10 minutes riding. He gets really bad but then is better the next day. It is so inconsistent. But yes, the more work he has done, the worse he seems, then is better after a couple of days off.

 

[Flame_]

I'd try a load of physio, then bareback, just in case its the saddle.

It sounds like a combination of problems to me though, and those are the hardest to get to the bottom of IME. I hope you sort it.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Unfortunately it does sound very similar to cpt's Wobblers experience but I would still check the ingredients of the balancer VERY carefully and eliminate before getting to the last resort. We have had problems with just about every substance you can give a horse, with different horses over the years, including carrots, seaweed and glucosamine, as well as NAF PinkPowder which we used as balancer.

 

[touchstone]

My vet was convinced that my mare had hock issues and wanted to inject, however I got a second opinion as I felt it wasn't her hocks and she had damaged her ddft. (a raised pulse gave the game away so easier to diagnose!)

I'd echo Pearlsasinger about feed too; Pure Easy is 10% combined starch and sugar which isn't particularly low if the horse has metabolic issues and it also contains soya oil which has lots of omega 6 which is pro inflammatory and may cause metabolic issues, so it could be worth dropping that for a while and see what happens.

 

[YorksG]

I would look at getting his neck checked, my mare began being very difficult in canter, running back into trot, odd gait, difficult to tell which leg she was on! Her trot also developed a 'stutter' Our vet is also a chiro and an accupuncturist, he diagnosed problems with her pol, manipulated her neck and head and stuck needles all over! She became sound almost immediately and with a bit of ridden rehab, became sound and willing again

 

[Chester15]

Having just gone through something very similar, I too was going to say hind suspensories, but it was not diagnosed with the ligamnets being scanned but through a bone scan because it was actually damage to the tiny nerves at the head of the ligamnet and not the ligament itself. Showed up as hot spots on bone scan, which the vet then blocked out and bingo, sound horse.

He was never really lame either, just on and off not quite right for some considerable time. First vet thought he was lame in front as that was how it presented, but a second opinion suggested susepnsories and he was right.

Small op to both legs followed by about 6 weeks box rest and we started rehab work thereafter. Been back on board since new year so he actaully only had about 12/13 weeks out of work. Obviously he's weak at the moment and building up slowly but initial signs are really positive. I really hope you can get your horse sorted. All the best

 

[Wagtail]

Having just gone through something very similar, I too was going to say hind suspensories, but it was not diagnosed with the ligamnets being scanned but through a bone scan because it was actually damage to the tiny nerves at the head of the ligamnet and not the ligament itself. Showed up as hot spots on bone scan, which the vet then blocked out and bingo, sound horse.

He was never really lame either, just on and off not quite right for some considerable time. First vet thought he was lame in front as that was how it presented, but a second opinion suggested susepnsories and he was right.

Small op to both legs followed by about 6 weeks box rest and we started rehab work thereafter. Been back on board since new year so he actaully only had about 12/13 weeks out of work. Obviously he's weak at the moment and building up slowly but initial signs are really positive. I really hope you can get your horse sorted. All the best

Thank you. I had no idea that it could still be suspensories if they scanned okay. It's looking more and more like the way forward for this horse is a bone scan. Owner was going to get thermal imaging done but the vet was really anti it. Shame I think as it may have been helpful.

 

[Wagtail]

I'd try a load of physio, then bareback, just in case its the saddle.

It sounds like a combination of problems to me though, and those are the hardest to get to the bottom of IME. I hope you sort it.

He's been having fortnightly physio. I'm not sure about bareback, he's the spookiest horse I have ever known and can shoot halfway across the arena before you even know it's happening. I'm certainly not brave enough

Unfortunately it does sound very similar to cpt's Wobblers experience but I would still check the ingredients of the balancer VERY carefully and eliminate before getting to the last resort. We have had problems with just about every substance you can give a horse, with different horses over the years, including carrots, seaweed and glucosamine, as well as NAF PinkPowder which we used as balancer.

I could put him on a plain chaff for a bit. What would you recommend? Grass chaff? Alfalfa?

My vet was convinced that my mare had hock issues and wanted to inject, however I got a second opinion as I felt it wasn't her hocks and she had damaged her ddft. (a raised pulse gave the game away so easier to diagnose!)

I'd echo Pearlsasinger about feed too; Pure Easy is 10% combined starch and sugar which isn't particularly low if the horse has metabolic issues and it also contains soya oil which has lots of omega 6 which is pro inflammatory and may cause metabolic issues, so it could be worth dropping that for a while and see what happens.

Will check if he has pulses tomorrow. Thanks.

I would look at getting his neck checked, my mare began being very difficult in canter, running back into trot, odd gait, difficult to tell which leg she was on! Her trot also developed a 'stutter' Our vet is also a chiro and an accupuncturist, he diagnosed problems with her pol, manipulated her neck and head and stuck needles all over! She became sound almost immediately and with a bit of ridden rehab, became sound and willing again

Accupuncture is certainly worth a try. Thank you.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

As I said, we have had issues with just about every substance you can think of. One of those substances is alfalfa and I know of several other horses which struggle to digest it properly, some on here. We have never had a problem with grass chaff (although I'm sure it is possible), so I'd go with that. Readigrass is ryegrass chaff, so I prefer to use Northern Cropdriers Graze-on which is mixed grasses, I think Dodson & Horrel do similar chaff. Definitely take him off the balancer at the same time.
Good luck!