Unusual herd hierachy?

Wagtail

Wagtail

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Just put a group of three horses together. Gelding, mare 1 and mare 2. All had at some time been in a two horse herd with each of the others, but never all three together. In the two horse herd Gelding was dominant to mare 1, Mare 1 was dominant to mare 2 but mare 2 was dominant to gelding. So anyway, they've been in together as a threesome for a couple of days and I am feeding haylage in the field as the grass is still poor. I expected a more normal linear hierachy to develop but mare 2 chases gelding off hay, then gelding chases mare 1 off her pile, and she goes and chases mare 2 off the hay she has just won off the gelding!

For those of you still following this, have you ever known such a wonky dominance hierachy? I have only ever known straight forward linear hierachy with horses. Do you think it is likely to stay this way?
 
I did follow that and wow thats rather odd, I have seen that in the larger herd on our yard but they are in groups as in summer are all split anyway due to grass and then all chucked out together in winter - so its more like two herds sharing a field and they will push each other out of the way but have a linear hierachy in each group.

The field bigger boy is in has him as the dominant one who will chase both the others off but then allow the horse that is bottom of the herd to share his space but cant tolerate the middle horse (who pushes the lowest horse away all the time) in his space at all. So the top and bottom of the herd often share the same space and food etc but the middle one just gets pushed out! When the top one has had enough he also pushes the lowest herd memeber out (who will hide with the top horse as the middle one bullies him) so its still linear, mabye yours will eventually settle into this kind of routine!
 
I have exactly the same but with 4 geldings. Had 3 with top horse quite elderly - others just let him be boss I think coz they were used to it & easy going. Got new horse. Initially he was at the bottom, but sort of hung around top horse for protection. Often shared hay pile but was v submissive to old top horse. Then one day he really laid into top horse & frightened him to death. He became above top horse, but old top horse remained above others. Those 2 would each try to get the others together & drive the other out. Split them up in the end as old horse was getting bullied by new one & scared. Old top went with next one down, then new one went with remaining pony. Sorted.
 
I am just hoping it stays harmonious, as 'mare 1' is my retired 17 year old who has a severe shoulder injury. I wanted to keep her just with my gelding so she doesn't hare about too much, but a new gelding took an instant aggressive dislike to 'mare 2' and so she had to come and join my two.
 
Bug2007 said:
Mine were like it for a few weeks but they have settled now and have a strict order.
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I've a feeling my poor old mare will become bottom of the pile. She is boss of the other mare at the mo' but unlikely to stay like that as she alway ends up bottom, poor old thing!
 
siennamum said:
Sounds pretty normal to me. I think relationships are far more complex than straight forward linear ones.
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I have read that different horses could be boss over different situations. For example, one horse may be boss of the hay, another boss of the gate area, another boss of the water etc. I remember a very strange mare years ago that would stand and guard the water trough and not let anyone but the boss horse near it!
 
I think friendship influences things as well, so a lower ranking horse can have borrowed influence from a powerful friend, which only works when that friend is about.

My 16.2 youngster has worked his way to the top of the herd hierarchy, but has an unreasonable fear of a small old evil gelding, who is very low ranking. Small gelding is the only thing that can move him, though that won't last for long. All the others treat small gelding with complete contempt. When small gelding dives at him and he moves from reflex, you can see him getting cross with himself for falling for it again. One day he won't move & small evil one will have a nasty shock.
 
siennamum said:
I think friendship influences things as well, so a lower ranking horse can have borrowed influence from a powerful friend, which only works when that friend is about.

My 16.2 youngster has worked his way to the top of the herd hierarchy, but has an unreasonable fear of a small old evil gelding, who is very low ranking. Small gelding is the only thing that can move him, though that won't last for long. All the others treat small gelding with complete contempt. When small gelding dives at him and he moves from reflex, you can see him getting cross with himself for falling for it again. One day he won't move & small evil one will have a nasty shock.
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:D:D Yes, poor evil gelding. I love my old mare to bits, but she's not the most tactful of horses with others. I think the other horses treat her with contempt because of this and she ends up at the bottom of the heap. She never seems to learn that she may live to regret her rash biting and kicking of new field mates who quickly rise above her in the hierachy and then keep her in line.
 
My two are in a herd of 6. Monty is number 2 and terrorises everybody beneath him, especially Archie but is petrified of the top horse. Archie is bottom of the food chain but is best mates with the top horse which affords him some protection. He also gets on with all the others if there's no reason for him to be put in his place and can be seen playing with all of them except Monty, but Monty is always on his own if he's not beating one of the others up.If Archie and Monty go anywhere alone, they cling to each other and get on brilliantly! It's all very strange, but they're all pretty settled.

ETA: So do they spend all day going round in circles?:p
 
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I have a mare that in no way could be called boss mare, but what I see her as in an opportunist. Like the old gelding in this thread, she would pick n choose who see would try it on with, pulling the meanest faces imaginable, with mouth barred, all show really. She would then look all pleased with her self, either that or get told off. Very "colourful" personality she has. She also pees over part of her hay at feed times.

Yout three will I'm sure sort them selves out, they're in transition at the mo :)
 
Hebe said:
I have a mare that in no way could be called boss mare, but what I see her as in an opportunist. Like the old gelding in this thread, she would pick n choose who see would try it on with, pulling the meanest faces imaginable, with mouth barred, all show really. She would then look all pleased with her self, either that or get told off. Very "colourful" personality she has. She also pees over part of her hay at feed times.

Yout three will I'm sure sort them selves out, they're in transition at the mo :)
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Haha, the evil old gelding also pees on hay piles. He also likes to pee on the salt lick if he can. I can see entirely why he irritates the other horses so much.
 
Just an update. I expected that mare 2 would become dominant to mare one, but in fact, the gelding became dominant to mare 2 and they now had a liniar heirachy of gelding, then mare 1, then mare 2.
 
siennamum said:
Sounds pretty normal to me. I think relationships are far more complex than straight forward linear ones.
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I completely agree, herd relationships are very complex, the more so the bigger the herd.
We have a mixed herd of geldings and mares, with a couple of dominant geldings who have their own 'harems' of two or three mares. The other geldings tend to form loose bachelor groups. The various groups do interact and mingle at several times during the day..in fact if you spend some watching them you can see that they mirror wild horses more than you would expect.
 
My 5yo lives out all year with 7 others in a mixed herd. They seem to settle really quickly which is nice and my boy tends to only play with one other gelding, which can result in nip marks but normally they just run and jump around together. My friends mare is top horse.

Anyway, sorry my main point was to say that we found it possible to alter herd dynamics with our influence at dinner times etc. This became really handy when my boy went through a really cheeky phase and somehow managed to get to the top. This dominant behaviour seemed to continue with me and for a month or two he was quite a little sod. My YO's son helped with Ronnie and we started to let him wait at his post until everyone else at finished and let him off last. Everything we did he got done last and it worked brilliantly. It wouldn't have been a problem him being top man but his behaviour on all counts changed and there were a few others that, if you looked properly, should have been top horse who were older, bigger and calmer than him and would have 'lead' the herd more effectively.

Just keep it in mind if you want to alter the dynamics yourself. If we can do it with 8 in total I'm sure you can with 3! Xx
 
GingerCat said:
I completely agree, herd relationships are very complex, the more so the bigger the herd.
We have a mixed herd of geldings and mares, with a couple of dominant geldings who have their own 'harems' of two or three mares. The other geldings tend to form loose bachelor groups. The various groups do interact and mingle at several times during the day..in fact if you spend some watching them you can see that they mirror wild horses more than you would expect.
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I would love to have all 7 horses in one large herd. It must be so interesting watching them and they probaly react far more naturally. Bur a couple of ours just don't get along.
 
Ashleigh_ said:
My 5yo lives out all year with 7 others in a mixed herd. They seem to settle really quickly which is nice and my boy tends to only play with one other gelding, which can result in nip marks but normally they just run and jump around together. My friends mare is top horse.

Anyway, sorry my main point was to say that we found it possible to alter herd dynamics with our influence at dinner times etc. This became really handy when my boy went through a really cheeky phase and somehow managed to get to the top. This dominant behaviour seemed to continue with me and for a month or two he was quite a little sod. My YO's son helped with Ronnie and we started to let him wait at his post until everyone else at finished and let him off last. Everything we did he got done last and it worked brilliantly. It wouldn't have been a problem him being top man but his behaviour on all counts changed and there were a few others that, if you looked properly, should have been top horse who were older, bigger and calmer than him and would have 'lead' the herd more effectively.

Just keep it in mind if you want to alter the dynamics yourself. If we can do it with 8 in total I'm sure you can with 3! Xx
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I've had a similar situation with a young gelding getting to be leader ofthe herd whilst still far too young (5). He became power crazy and ended up having to be segregated. He's a lot more relaxed now.
 
Fascinating to watch isn't it?

I have mostly smaller groups, geldings are in pairs because that is how it worked out, but yearlings and mares are in bigger groups.

The older mares tend to lead the way but not always from the front (the bay at the back is ranked #4, but invariably when she moves off, everyone else does too) the mare with foal, although towards the back of the line is the one that everyone steps back for when she wants to be somewhere. The sorrel at the front is the newest and the lowest of the low, the palomino at the back is equal # 2 with the buckskin, but she adores foals and will stay close to this one for months now, I spend far too much time watching my horses.

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Enfys said:
Fascinating to watch isn't it?

I have mostly smaller groups, geldings are in pairs because that is how it worked out, but yearlings and mares are in bigger groups.

The older mares tend to lead the way but not always from the front (the old arab is ranked #4, but invariably when she moves off, everyone follows) the mare with foal, although towards the back of the line is the one that everyone steps back for when she wants to be somewhere. The sorrel at the front is the newest and the lowest of the low, the palomino at the back is equal # 2 with the buckskin, I spend far too much time watching my horses.
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Do you find mares wth foals become more dominant? My lowest ranking mare is in foal and I have no experience of breeding horses, so am worrying about what to do when she foals. I am planning to put her and the foal into a separate paddock next tothe others when she foals. Then wait for a few weeks before trying her back in with them (a mare and gelding). But it worries me!
 
Sounds pretty normal until they've actually sorted out a pecking order.

I'm assuming you put more piles of hay out than horses - but if not do, it will certainly stop any arguing.
 
Hebe said:
I have a mare that in no way could be called boss mare, but what I see her as in an opportunist. Like the old gelding in this thread, she would pick n choose who see would try it on with, pulling the meanest faces imaginable, with mouth barred, all show really. She would then look all pleased with her self, either that or get told off. Very "colourful" personality she has. She also pees over part of her hay at feed times.
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I have one EXACTLY like that too! :D
 
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