'Unwelcome touching' of horses by humans

Interesting topic, I have an older mare who is not keen on being touched. Once you have caught her, you can do anything with her, no objection, but loose no thankyou.

I also have a youngster , now 4yrs who has taken all of that time to being touched on her muzzle. It is quite a sensitive part of their head.

Re head rubs, I thought the rub between the eyes was familiar to the horse as similar feeling the mare licking the foal
 
Burnttoast said:
I've tried quite hard in the last few years not to touch animals so much. I can't remember exactly what the catalyst was but part of it was after learning about calming signals in horses when I got my boy. Realising what he was saying and acting on it made building a relationship with him much easier - he was so screwed up at first but would keep it all bottled up and then bam, he was gone and his handler had a rope burn. As soon as I started responding to his specific signals he became 100% more relaxed, almost overnight. And standing with him is actually one of the things I do with him (he's retired now so actually it's almost the only thing!). I stand at his neck usually, facing forward or backward, it doesn't seem to matter which, but not facing him. If I'm facing forward and he turns his head away slightly I might look or turn a little away as well or take a small step away and then he'll come back to centre. If he's feeling more cuddly he'll rub his nose down my leg and then rest it on my leg near my foot for a while. I'm still guilty of the forehead rub but not often as a greeting and he does seem to enjoy having the base of his forelock scratched in shedding seasons. He also likes to use me as a scratching post which I've never discouraged though I do warn people not to get in the firing line if they don't want to be one.
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I have been like this since we have had our collie, she lets us know when she is haooy for touch and when she doesnt want it...but even if she doesnt want it on a "check" day time where we check ears, teeth paws etc she lets me as its trained to the word "check" so its differen than if I just want to touch her. When we are done the words " all done" are the release and she either moves away or decides she wants a cuddle. She is also vocal in her yes and nos. She loves talking in her cuddles, but you have to listen to her pitch because as soon as it drops to low and her face starts to show tightness its her "i am done now" something my dad has only just excepted this last year.

I have always in a way tried to read the horses bur i can admit that I havent always listened when younger to my gut telling me they just want to be left alone
 
Pearlsasinger said:
It's interesting when someone articulates what you do as a matter of course. I do remember being told at RS many, many years ago that very few horses like being touched between the eyes as they can't see you there. It would never occur to me to rub a horse there, let alone persist in doing so.
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Mine asks for it by moving his head under my hand ans pressing, he likes using my nails to scratch
 
Most feral ponies would never become tame if that was the case - and becoming tame is their ticket to healthcare and a more secure future. All of my previously feral ones love being tame and order us around with enthusiasm (you’re late, need more water, where’s dinner etc).

In the herd, the more dominant animal initiates contact. Less dominant ones ask with body language and need to gain permission. More dominant ones can just walk up and start grooming. Or steal food from each other’s mouths if they are friends!

Healthcare determines that you need to vaccinate, trim hooves, worm as required, stand for the dentist and vet. Ponies need work too if on lowland pastures, or a muzzle to replace the work so they don’t get obese and end up with laminitis. My rule is that free in the field I don’t bother them unless they come to me. Once caught, they need to do as asked, and they are not allowed to have a go at each other once caught either. They can do that on their own time.
 
maya2008 said:
In the herd, the more dominant animal initiates contact. Less dominant ones ask with body language and need to gain permission. More dominant ones can just walk up and start grooming. Or steal food from each other’s mouths if they are friends!
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I find your language about 'dominance' here very odd. You don't really get hierarchies in this sort of affiliative behaviour.

A horse that walks up to another and starts grooming them straight away isn't 'dominant'; more often than not, they're more stressed than the other and trying to regulate their emotions through grooming. The stress means that they forget their manners and don't ask permission spatially before physically interacting with the other horse.

Alternatively, horses may initiate contact without asking permission not because they're dominant, but because their familiarity with the other horse, and a history of affilitative behaviours with that horse, means they're confident skipping that stage.

Plus some horses tend to intitate contact more abruptly than others just because of their nature. I've known several cobs who were very comfortable with quite extreme contact initiation (e.g., head-butting other horses to get their attention or move them), but that was a personality thing and certaintly did not represent them having more status within the herd.

The idea of dominance with animals in the first place is very dodgy, but, even thinking of the more complex hierarchies that horses do have, I can hand on my heart say that I've never once witnessed grooming where I felt the relative hierarchal role of the participants was significantly influencing it.
 
The highland never asks for permission from anyone to do anything and respects nobody’s boundaries. He also has just about zero boundaries of his own. You can touch him anywhere at any time (loose in the field if you like) and he really doesn’t care. That does however make him think he can do the same to you, other horses, any dog he meets etc. He’s probably a bit odd! (He also loves having his ears & under his forelock scratched and will press his head into you / keep rotating which bit of head he wants next… this can go on for several minutes)

There is a lot of consent based conversations going on in veterinary specifically atm. Some of the more militant end, some more realistic. (Animals do not have the capacity to give truly informed consent. If an animal is going to suffer or die without an intervention then it needs to happen regardless of consent, with sedation to make it possible if needed. Buuut if a procedure is not urgent & animal will not suffer if it is delayed then it should be until either it can be tried with anti anxiety medication/ sedation or until sufficient “training” has been done for animal to be ok with procedure.)

Cats are VERY consent based and respond very poorly to not having a sense of control over the situation (even if the only thing they have control over is whether they want to be partly hidden whilst procedure takes place, whether they want to sit on floor or table etc & they are a lot less likely to resort to biting / scratching if they know they can press pause whenever they start to feel uncomfortable, even if ultimately the thing needs to happen). They also take a very dim view of any touching they haven’t asked for!

A lot of dogs prefer having an element of control but seem on the whole better able to tolerate being poorly read / are more likely to forgive and move on.

The Hooligan actively LOVES cuddles and will launch himself at you if you kneel and place a front paw on each shoulder and snuggle into your neck. (He expects you to catch him / stop him falling backwards!) He prefers your hug back to be gentle and easy to escape when he’s done though rather than a tight squeeze. Occasionally he’ll do this whilst presenting you a toy that he whacks you around the head with whilst play growling happily at full volume! (Rather disconcerting to have right next to your ear!) He also leans into you and rubs himself against you like a cat when he wants scratches & pats (usually whilst sneezing & snorting) & loves his cheeks, chin & ears rubbing (also loves an arse slap & gets v excited about them… also weird!)
 
stangs said:
I find your language about 'dominance' here very odd. You don't really get hierarchies in this sort of affiliative behaviour.

A horse that walks up to another and starts grooming them straight away isn't 'dominant'; more often than not, they're more stressed than the other and trying to regulate their emotions through grooming. The stress means that they forget their manners and don't ask permission spatially before physically interacting with the other horse.

Alternatively, horses may initiate contact without asking permission not because they're dominant, but because their familiarity with the other horse, and a history of affilitative behaviours with that horse, means they're confident skipping that stage.

Plus some horses tend to intitate contact more abruptly than others just because of their nature. I've known several cobs who were very comfortable with quite extreme contact initiation (e.g., head-butting other horses to get their attention or move them), but that was a personality thing and certaintly did not represent them having more status within the herd.

The idea of dominance with animals in the first place is very dodgy, but, even thinking of the more complex hierarchies that horses do have, I can hand on my heart say that I've never once witnessed grooming where I felt the relative hierarchal role of the participants was significantly influencing it.
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I don’t know what your definition of dominance is - but in the herds I have owned for the last few decades, and in the horse behaviour books/studies I spent time reading as a young adult, this is the case. I spent countless hours observing and reading and researching - because once I had the time and the interest! If you stand in a field and watch a settled herd it is easy to see, there is a defined hierarchy. If you put out feed bowls or hay in winter you can pick out exactly what it is in seconds. It’s an important part of their lives. Without a competent leader no one feels safe and bullying can occur. A good leader regulates the herd - mine in the bigger herd is a 12hh 4yo mare. She keeps order with teeth and hooves if necessary but mostly with a look…and no one messes with her! The rest of them come under her - in their own order. That order gives security and safety and if everyone keeps to their place there is harmony. Ponies I have had with what amounts to poor social skills - lack of ability to understand and follow the social rules and hierarchy - have struggled hugely and either been outcast from the herd or constantly being hurt as the others resort to force to attempt to educate them. I’ve only had two, and both had non standard foalhoods, but if you don’t ’get it’ then life isn’t good.

In my herd, they ask for a groom as social bonding or because they are itchy (the latter most often at this time of year). The one higher in the hierarchy will happily walk up and just start. The other will walk up if they want a groom and ‘ask’ then start if the friend is receptive. Same behaviour as ‘I’ll have a drink while you are’ or ‘I’ll lie down next to you’ or ‘I’ll share that pile of hay’. Within a friendship group, there’s a set of behaviours - outside of the friendship group (which can be more than a pair) the one up the hierarchy will chase off the one who is lower.

Stressed - which for us is what happens if you pop some of them in the ‘traffic’ field - not seen grooming then. They are on hyper alert if stressed and not relaxed enough to groom or sleep. If you define stress literally though, being itchy is a stressor. Being bored is a stressor. Etc.

I don’t doubt though that horses feeling insecure for whatever reason would want to reinforce social bonds and groom. Mine are in a settled herd with no reason to feel insecure. In a stabled environment or livery yard with ever changing friends (as some are) that would probably be more prevalent. When I moved from a livery yard to my own place a long time ago, my horses came alive in ways I had not anticipated. There’s a whole world out there of communication that can occur when happy and settled and doesn’t if the environment isn’t ‘safe’ enough. Which can be many things but one is the presence of a proper boss mare. We lost ours one autumn and the whole herd were lost and struggling all winter. When we got my son’s new mare home, they saw her and just sighed in relief. The next morning I arrived to find them all sleeping round her. The first time they had been able to sleep properly in months.
 
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Millie doesn’t enjoy head rubs, so I don’t do it. She generally only likes a scratch behind the ear.
Meg used to give me all the signs that she didn’t enjoy being brushed, so I stopped. Now she enjoys it so I do short grooming sessions with her.
I’m fascinated that some people have an inability to read horse (or any animal) body language, because to me it’s genuinely as easy as if they were voicing their feelings.
I assume it’s just years of being around them and watching them but I often see horse owners with years of experience completely misreading or ignoring what a horse is communicating to them.
 
PurpleSpots said:
I think that is actually a very healthy thing to teach any child, person or animal.

People don't dislike things just to make other people's lives difficult - there is always a reason for their dislike.

Dislike doesn't have to be a finite thing though, it can be discussed, and opinions can be changed, but in the moment any being has the right to say 'I don't like or want that'.
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Never havin to d anything you dislike is unrealistic in life… I don’t like .. in fact I hate cleaning toilets but I wouldn’t suggest never doing it as I also hate dirty toilets…. learning that it’s never ok to be uncomfortable is incredibly unhealthy and teaching children and animals how to cope with uncomfortable situations and be ok is a hugely important lesson in life. There is therefore every need to get children and animals to do things they dislike to prove this theory…
 
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scats said:
I’m fascinated that some people have an inability to read horse (or any animal) body language, because to me it’s genuinely as easy as if they were voicing their feelings.
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Oh my, the number of times I've seen people totally ignoring an animal's communication - and I'm talking about full on shouting, not subtle signs - or even laughing at them!

One was a teen leaning over, face to face with a border collie and scratching under his chin. Dog was growling, lips back, hackles raised and she just carried on. I pointed out that the dog was telling her that he really didn't like that. Her answer was "I know, I've worked with dogs before". Well then stop that before you end up disfigured for life!

Another is the yard cat, who is friendly enough on her own terms (cuddles are for winter when it's cold!) but I've seen people (adults!) hang on to her when she's yowling still stroking her and laughing saying "she doesn't like that!".
 
Fascinating conversation. I have to admit I’ve never been super prone to a head rub - I always reach for muzzle first, and then offer a neck scratch or wither scratch. In a non-emergency setting I can’t imagine not touching muzzle first, because that’s always how the horse reaches out. I guess it’s the same as letting a dog or cat sniff my hand first.

Any sort of raised hand over a face, whether human, horse, dog, cat etc seems quite potentially threatening from someone you don’t know, I think.
 
All mine solicit forehead scratches - they will move their heads until my hand is positioned for maximum enjoyment. They're all friendly, touchy-feely types. Dae's famous for following people around the field sucking their hair or nibbling their hood. In the field I let them dictate the contact. If I have to do something they're not happy about, the headcollar goes on, and they have to put up with it - vet/hoof care etc - but I don't expect them to tolerate unnecessary handling if they're clearly not up for it.

It wouldn't be my choice to go for the forehead with an unknown horse though. I tend to let horses decide if they want to be in my face, or keep our interactions more clinical. If they're not mine, it's really not my business to go all out touching them anyway.
 
Not something I have thougth about in great detail probably as I am not a "touching" person in generally. I don't stroke dogs or cats and prefer they don't touch me. My current horse seems to like being touched and cuddled, he "looks" happy being groomed or massaged and looks to respond to it in a good way. My previous horse was definitely more of a I will let you do what you need to do but no cuddling!
 
My big horse is inquisitive but doesn’t like a lot of touching. She’s not fond of a neck scratch but she does like a forehead rub. Grooming is on her terms only.

I don’t think this is that out there compared to the post I read about headcollars and taking their freedom away by putting one on. That went a bit far for me.
 
I already try to be aware of this, and offer a hello closed fist, but the urge to scratch the forehead must be something thats baked into you as a kid or something because I catch myself at it anyway! Dogs and cats get the same, usually, along with no immediate eye contact or maybe a slow blink. I do my best to be polite, y'know.

I did something very silly and taught the pony to give kisses (don't start on me, I know, I KNOW) so she gets her revenge unwelcomely touching my face with a wet, or food covered muzzle.
 
I think if you spend enough time around them you come to learn their different personality's and how they like to interact. Poo-Picking is a great time for 'socialising' with my horses 😄 My big gelding will often wander over, sometimes he wants a scratch and will stand for a fuss, other times he's just investigating if I have any treats and when I offer a scratch says "no thank you" and moves off to go and do his own thing again. My mare isn't very touchy feely - she will tolerate a quick groom and being tacked up, but if I try to give her a scratch she just looks bored, so she gets a flick over with a brush and left to her own devices in her free time. The old boy has no concept of personal space but very much dictates what he wants from you, sometimes he'll ask for a bum scratch, other times he just wants to use me as a scratching post for a head rub on his terms :rolleyes:
 
smolmaus said:
I already try to be aware of this, and offer a hello closed fist, but the urge to scratch the forehead must be something thats baked into you as a kid or something because I catch myself at it anyway! Dogs and cats get the same, usually, along with no immediate eye contact or maybe a slow blink. I do my best to be polite, y'know.

I did something very silly and taught the pony to give kisses (don't start on me, I know, I KNOW) so she gets her revenge unwelcomely touching my face with a wet, or food covered muzzle.
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Nothing better than sloppy grass nuts in the hair, really sets you up for the day 😆
 
SpeedyPony said:
For instance, my sec D hates having her head held. She needed eye drops 3x per day for a week- sedation was not an option! We came to the compromise that I wouldn't hold her head collar and she would keep her head still enough for me to administer the eye drops (with the aid of a little bribery). That's something I'm happy to do, but she wasn't allowed to say no to the eye drops.
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That's really interesting, as Alf was the same. It took me years to work out that I could do anything to his head, as long as I didn't put my hand over his nose, or hold the headcollar. It was affectionately referred to as "Law of Alf"!

It's surprisingly hard to clip heads, worm, etc without touching the horses head with your other hand!
 
khalswitz said:
Fascinating conversation. I have to admit I’ve never been super prone to a head rub - I always reach for muzzle first, and then offer a neck scratch or wither scratch. In a non-emergency setting I can’t imagine not touching muzzle first, because that’s always how the horse reaches out. I guess it’s the same as letting a dog or cat sniff my hand first.

Any sort of raised hand over a face, whether human, horse, dog, cat etc seems quite potentially threatening from someone you don’t know, I think.
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This is my natural go-to as well. My horse is the most touchy horse I've ever come across and becomes most demanding of children...mostly because I think he just absolutely loves children. An adult can be near him but he will beeline it for the child instead (he also has no concept of his size or boundaries...he does try but that part just isn't there for him - he's 19 next week so not expecting that to change). We went through a stint of him not liking to be touched so tried to flick a brush as quickly as possible as nothing else could be found but it turned out that it was a sensitivity to alfalfa.
 
Auslander said:
That's really interesting, as Alf was the same. It took me years to work out that I could do anything to his head, as long as I didn't put my hand over his nose, or hold the headcollar. It was affectionately referred to as "Law of Alf"!

It's surprisingly hard to clip heads, worm, etc without touching the horses head with your other hand!
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Weirdly, she's fine if I put my hand over her nose to worm, it's just anything in the nature of grasping that she objects to. I haven't tried to clip her head, but given I only ever clip half heads (and struggle to make them even 😂), I don't think I'll bother trying.
She likes to put her head against my chest and have her ears pulled though, catching hold of them is apparently okay!
 
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