Up at 5.30 for the second time in 3 nights...

[Kat_Bath]

I have a conundrum...

5.30am on Friday morning, Harvey wakes OH up, pacing and nudging. His tummy is gurgling. She let's him out, he grazes like a very hungry horse and has a wee and a poo. The last time this happened (a long while ago - maybe a year), we gave him a handful of food (kibble) after the garden visit and went back to bed. OH tried to feed him on Friday morning and she said it was like she was poisoning him - he wouldn't eat at first but stood there, tail wagging, happy to be alive. Once he realised it was food, he ate a handful. They both came back to bed, the tummy was quiet and we all went back to sleep.

We thought he might have been actually hungry... Labs are always hungry mind... He had had his normal food on Thursday so bit perplexed.

45 minutes ago, the same thing happened. Downstairs, outside, ate grass like it was going out of fashion, had a wee. I couldn't hear his tummy and he made no motions to poo so we came back in and went back upstairs. Then I heard his tummy loud and clear! So back downstairs, out again, had a poo, back in, went to get a handful of food, gave him some and he SPAT IT OUT at first! Yes, you read that right, a Lab spat out food! Once again, he stood there, tail wagging, staring at me and then he ate a handful. Back upstairs, no more tummy noises, OH and doggo are now asleep and I'm not...

Yesterday, he had more to eat than normal - he had his breakfast, he had his normal treats on walks (every walk is a training walk with Harvey... so he gets kibble treats), he had a load of carrot as a treat in the afternoon, a kong of kibble as well and finally, dinner.

Why are we up at 5.30 again?

Has anyone else encountered this?

Why did a Lab spit out food...?! Not sure anyone will ever be able to answer that though to be honest!

Any ideas appreciated!

I'm going to try and go back to sleep............

 

[Supertrooper]

My last dog used to do this although in her case she’d wake up at that time very nauseous

With her it was excess acid sloshing around that would cause her to wake up, stomach gurgling and she would vomit bile. She wouldn’t even look at food

We mostly solved it by giving her a slice of dry toast last thing at night to mop up the acid so may be worth a try

 

[Sandstone1]

Something is not right there, he may have eaten something he should not have. Is his poo normal? I would cut out the carrots for a few days and feed a light diet. maybe feed earlier in the evening too.

 

[AmyMay]

He sounds genuinely hungry. can you give him a late night snack?

 

[CanteringCarrot]

If this were a horse I would think ulcers. Therefore I might think something related to this/stomach acid in a dog.

When is last feeding at night and what time is his breakfast?

 

[skinnydipper]

Might be bilious vomiting syndome though in Harvey’s case he hasn’t actually vomited.

Some dogs benefit from more frequent meals as they vomit bile when the stomach is empty, often in a morning after a long fast during the night (bilious vomiting syndrome).

You could try a late night snack, as Amymay has suggested.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Does sound as if something isn't quite working as it should in his ingestion system. Since my veterinarians have always said that splitting up their daily food ration in several portions is milder for the stomach, liver, etc, if possible, I would split both his breakfast, and dinner portions, so he gets 4 meals, for a start. And either give a few less carrots, or split them up into 2, too.
ETA So basically ditto Skinnydipper's suggestion, even though I haven't heard about that syndrom before./eta

In your shoes, I would probably call the veterinarian tomorrow, and ask for a check up. I would be surprised if 'Lab spitting out food' isn't already considered as a legit veterinary symptom of something.

 

[Clodagh]

Low grade pancreatitis? Eating hurts if they have that.

 

[PapaverFollis]

My Sprollie needs a late night snack else he can get vommity before breakfast time. He does best on 4 small meals a day. Breakfast, lunch, dinner and supper. Worth a try.

 

[Kat_Bath]

Oh my goodness! Thank you all so much! You have no idea how much I appreciate all your replies - thank you!

My last dog used to do this although in her case she’d wake up at that time very nauseous

With her it was excess acid sloshing around that would cause her to wake up, stomach gurgling and she would vomit bile. She wouldn’t even look at food

We mostly solved it by giving her a slice of dry toast last thing at night to mop up the acid so may be worth a try

This makes sense. The only thing I would say is that he is pretty good at being sick (if he drinks too much water, he'll bring a bit of it back up). However, I've only known him be sick when there's excess, not when there's not enough. What you're describing fits with what's happening though so thank you for sharing.

Something is not right there, he may have eaten something he should not have. Is his poo normal? I would cut out the carrots for a few days and feed a light diet. maybe feed earlier in the evening too.

He quite often eats things he finds on walks but he has recently been on lead or in secure fields and I haven't spotted him chomping down on anything. His poo is normal (which is good because I've seen it when he's had colitis and that was not normal!). I'll cut out the carrots and see what happens. What's the thinking behind feeding earlier, if you don't mind me asking?

He sounds genuinely hungry. can you give him a late night snack?

He would LOVE a late night snack! I think that would also be an easy thing to try and see if it helps so he might be a lucky the next few days!

If this were a horse I would think ulcers. Therefore I might think something related to this/stomach acid in a dog.

When is last feeding at night and what time is his breakfast?

I thought the same - I've not had any experience of a horse with ulcers but you read a lot. He gets fed at 6pm and at around about 7.30am and it's been that way for a long time. He gets about 180-185g of food each time. Like I said, he gets kibble on walks, so he gets some at lunch time but after 6pm, nothing until morning.

Might be bilious vomiting syndome though in Harvey’s case he hasn’t actually vomited.

You could try a late night snack, as Amymay has suggested.

Thank you - there's a bit of a pattern forming in replies here, isn't there?

Does sound as if something isn't quite working as it should in his ingestion system. Since my veterinarians have always said that splitting up their daily food ration in several portions is milder for the stomach, liver, etc, if possible, I would split both his breakfast, and dinner portions, so he gets 4 meals, for a start. And either give a few less carrots, or split them up into 2, too.
ETA So basically ditto Skinnydipper's suggestion, even though I haven't heard about that syndrom before./eta

In your shoes, I would probably call the veterinarian tomorrow, and ask for a check up. I would be surprised if 'Lab spitting out food' isn't already considered as a legit veterinary symptom of something.

The vets are very helpful so I will drop them an email. I know she will laugh her socks off at the thought of Harvey refusing food as he is quite well known at the vets, even though he rarely goes, because he knocks on the door when we walked passed on the odd lunch time walk - he knows the biscuit people live there! He stares through the window at whoever is on reception, longingly, trying to suck them into coming outside (which they don't atm due to COVID).

I think 4 smaller meals is going to be the trial for the next couple of days. I will worry more if it happens again - 3 times would seem a lot.

Low grade pancreatitis? Eating hurts if they have that.

I'll bear that in mind and have a look at symptoms - thank you.

My Sprollie needs a late night snack else he can get vommity before breakfast time. He does best on 4 small meals a day. Breakfast, lunch, dinner and supper. Worth a try.

Definitely and I'm quite glad a few of you have said that!

 

[SAujla]

I give my pup Lily Kitchen bedtime biscuits every single night I doubt she'd go to bed without one now. It does say on the packet it helps soothe and calm the dog down but I'm not sure how true that is, might just be marketing spin. It's not massive but more substantial than some kibble so could help. Her dinner is at 7pm so could always try pushing his back by one hour as well?

A few pictures of your dog would be helpful, just for our enjoyment

 

[Kat_Bath]

I give my pup Lily Kitchen bedtime biscuits every single night I doubt she'd go to bed without one now. It does say on the packet it helps soothe and calm the dog down but I'm not sure how true that is, might just be marketing spin. It's not massive but more substantial than some kibble so could help. Her dinner is at 7pm so could always try pushing his back by one hour as well?

A few pictures of your dog would be helpful, just for our enjoyment

I think if we went cold turkey change from 6pm to 7pm, he might start munching our limbs off - he already struggles with the concept that 4.30 isn't 6pm, bless him. We're going to try adding an extra little snack at bed time and make sure he gets a good amount and lunch and see how we go. I'll break the news to him later - he'll be very happy!

Hope this attachment works... I was going to add a photo to my earlier post in thanks but it said it was too big so hopefully this one is a good size. This was him after the early wake up the other morning - he could get away with murder with those eyes!

 

[cobgoblin]

Reflux?

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I would also be worried if my Lab acted weird about food seeing as she's basically a garbage disposal on 4 legs. FWIW, carrots don't get along with her stomach. A small piece here and there is fine, but nothing more. She also eats at 6pm but has breakfast at 5/5:30am then a snack midday.

I think trying to give him something before bed is easy enough to try. I often give dried chicken filets, cow lung, or turkey necks as snacks.

 

[windand rain]

I guess I must have the only labrador that s not greedy and is free fed. She has her food available at all times basically she has a big bowl of kibble availbale in her feeding area that is rarely if ever empty. She doesn't steal food and only rarely has treats but she does have a treat at 4.30 every evening when she goes for a wee as she sniffs for England so it concentraes her mind. She also has three no more no less shapes at midnight after her last walk think she can count.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Carrots are quite high sugar. My youngest has a good food drive but will spit it out if over-aroused/highly excited. She won't take food for the first couple of minutes that she's out and about and then eventually she realises 'oh yeah, I'm hungry' and then snaps back into whatever it is she should be doing.

 

[SAujla]

I think if we went cold turkey change from 6pm to 7pm, he might start munching our limbs off - he already struggles with the concept that 4.30 isn't 6pm, bless him. We're going to try adding an extra little snack at bed time and make sure he gets a good amount and lunch and see how we go. I'll break the news to him later - he'll be very happy!

Hope this attachment works... I was going to add a photo to my earlier post in thanks but it said it was too big so hopefully this one is a good size. This was him after the early wake up the other morning - he could get away with murder with those eyes!

Could maybe try pushing it back 10 minutes at a time. It will be hard as they just know what time they are due their food don't they.

He looks brilliant and he does have them "I'm a hungry Labrador" eyes. I really hope it's something behavioural that a bedtime snack can fix rather than something more serious

 

[Sandstone1]

Oh my goodness! Thank you all so much! You have no idea how much I appreciate all your replies - thank you!



This makes sense. The only thing I would say is that he is pretty good at being sick (if he drinks too much water, he'll bring a bit of it back up). However, I've only known him be sick when there's excess, not when there's not enough. What you're describing fits with what's happening though so thank you for sharing.



He quite often eats things he finds on walks but he has recently been on lead or in secure fields and I haven't spotted him chomping down on anything. His poo is normal (which is good because I've seen it when he's had colitis and that was not normal!). I'll cut out the carrots and see what happens. What's the thinking behind feeding earlier, if you don't mind me asking?



He would LOVE a late night snack! I think that would also be an easy thing to try and see if it helps so he might be a lucky the next few days!



I thought the same - I've not had any experience of a horse with ulcers but you read a lot. He gets fed at 6pm and at around about 7.30am and it's been that way for a long time. He gets about 180-185g of food each time. Like I said, he gets kibble on walks, so he gets some at lunch time but after 6pm, nothing until morning.



Thank you - there's a bit of a pattern forming in replies here, isn't there?



The vets are very helpful so I will drop them an email. I know she will laugh her socks off at the thought of Harvey refusing food as he is quite well known at the vets, even though he rarely goes, because he knocks on the door when we walked passed on the odd lunch time walk - he knows the biscuit people live there! He stares through the window at whoever is on reception, longingly, trying to suck them into coming outside (which they don't atm due to COVID).

I think 4 smaller meals is going to be the trial for the next couple of days. I will worry more if it happens again - 3 times would seem a lot.



I'll bear that in mind and have a look at symptoms - thank you.



Definitely and I'm quite glad a few of you have said that!

If you are feeding him too late at night he may need a poo in the middle of the night. If you feed him earlier or give him only a small meal or a treat in the evening he may not need a poo in the small hours. It is possible that he needs a small treat last thing at night to settle his stomach. The rumbling stomach may not mean hes hungry it may just mean he has a upset stomach, ie his food doesnt suit him.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I guess I must have the only labrador that s not greedy and is free fed. She has her food available at all times basically she has a big bowl of kibble availbale in her feeding area that is rarely if ever empty. She doesn't steal food and only rarely has treats but she does have a treat at 4.30 every evening when she goes for a wee as she sniffs for England so it concentraes her mind. She also has three no more no less shapes at midnight after her last walk think she can count.

I had a Labrador years ago that was like that. Totally not greedy. I guess they're a rarity though.

 

[Kat_Bath]

Reflux?

Possibly - he was so bright eyed though...

I would also be worried if my Lab acted weird about food seeing as she's basically a garbage disposal on 4 legs. FWIW, carrots don't get along with her stomach. A small piece here and there is fine, but nothing more. She also eats at 6pm but has breakfast at 5/5:30am then a snack midday.

I think trying to give him something before bed is easy enough to try. I often give dried chicken filets, cow lung, or turkey necks as snacks.

I think I'll cut out the carrots as well, to see. He didn't have much yesterday but you never know. Carrots also vary wildly (to my tastes buds anyway) so not the most consistent of things.

I guess I must have the only labrador that s not greedy and is free fed. She has her food available at all times basically she has a big bowl of kibble availbale in her feeding area that is rarely if ever empty. She doesn't steal food and only rarely has treats but she does have a treat at 4.30 every evening when she goes for a wee as she sniffs for England so it concentraes her mind. She also has three no more no less shapes at midnight after her last walk think she can count.

There's a part of me that wonders what Harvey would do if you did that but I'm not willing to try! You have a rare Labrador!

Carrots are quite high sugar. My youngest has a good food drive but will spit it out if over-aroused/highly excited. She won't take food for the first couple of minutes that she's out and about and then eventually she realises 'oh yeah, I'm hungry' and then snaps back into whatever it is she should be doing.

That's interesting - I've noticed recently that, as we go out with other dogs, he's much less interested in food. However, we have cracked his behaviour around other dogs so now he's a good boy, I think he gets a lot of satisfaction playing with other dogs properly and being around other dogs in a civilised fashion. He also seems to have started being incredibly proud of his good behaviour and quite often appears to look to us for approval and praise but isn't always after a treat (but I may be anthropomorphising somewhat).

Could maybe try pushing it back 10 minutes at a time. It will be hard as they just know what time they are due their food don't they.

He looks brilliant and he does have them "I'm a hungry Labrador" eyes. I really hope it's something behavioural that a bedtime snack can fix rather than something more serious

Thank you - me too. If it happens again, I'll worry but we'll see. His eyes are just ridiculous and he knows how to turn it on but I wouldn't have it any other way!

If you are feeding him too late at night he may need a poo in the middle of the night. If you feed him earlier or give him only a small meal or a treat in the evening he may not need a poo in the small hours. It is possible that he needs a small treat last thing at night to settle his stomach. The rumbling stomach may not mean hes hungry it may just mean he has a upset stomach, ie his food doesnt suit him.

Gotcha - that makes sense, thank you.

Thanks again everyone - I really appreciate it, a lot.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

It doesn't need to be anything dramatic behind benefitting from eating several small meals, rather than a few large meals per day. When Jonna's liver started to show her age last Autumn (she's 15½ now), my veterinarian suggested changing from our 2½ feedings per day, up to 4 per day.
Because it is easier for the liver to deal with several smaller portions spread out over the day, rather than fewer large portions.

My bitches have always gotten something to eat after their last evening pee. New puppies quickly pick up that you don't faff about with your last evening pee, without you go out, do what you need quickly, and then you hurry indoors for usually 2 slices of boiled carrots + if there's some leftovers from my dinner they could have.
That was what I counted as the ½ meal, but before, if there wasn't any leftovers, they only got the carrots. Now they get the boiled carrot slices + a proper small meal of leftovers, or dry food.

And because it is only a small meal, it's not enough to make them need to go out to poo in the middle of the night.

 

[AmyMay]

How did last night go?

 

[Kat_Bath]

I feel like a proud parent - we made it through the night! Although I was awake at 5.30 and then lay there, scared to even move a finger in case I was heard and it was assumed it was getting up time!

He had 40g of his food before bed (we've not got much else in that would have suited but thinking about getting something a bit more alternative so it's more of a treat than a meal maybe). The only downside was that the amount of poo that came out of him this morning was extreme (sorry if you're eating your brekkie!) but that's understandable as he last pooed at lunch time yesterday and didn't poo in the evening. Hopefully he might adjust and start to poo later in the day a bit more regularly (it's hit and miss as to whether he does or not).

I think we have 2 options - feed less but more often or push dinner time back to 7pm. I'm not sure I have it in me to push back dinner time as even we eat at about 6ish so I would feel very bad.

Today, I'm planning the usual 180g for breakfast (he's already had that), maybe about 40-50g at lunch (about 1pm), and then splitting the remaining 180g into two meals so he gets a slightly smaller dinner. I'm not sure if 40g was too much last night but I guess it's a bit of trial and error. Just thinking about this actually, he could have a bigger lunch, so more equal meals as FL suggest above and then there might be more chance of evening poops... Maybe 180g in the morning, 90g at lunch, 90g at dinner, little bit before bed. Anyway, I'm thinking out loud now. And also, apologies for being quite specific with grams but if I said "half a cup" or "a full cup", that only means something to me as none of you have got the cup in front of you!

Thanks for checking up on us Amymay! And thanks everyone again for your replies - I'm very grateful.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I guess I must have the only labrador that s not greedy and is free fed. She has her food available at all times basically she has a big bowl of kibble availbale in her feeding area that is rarely if ever empty. She doesn't steal food and only rarely has treats but she does have a treat at 4.30 every evening when she goes for a wee as she sniffs for England so it concentraes her mind. She also has three no more no less shapes at midnight after her last walk think she can count.

We have a Lab who, aged 6 months suddenly went off the kibble that she had been eating since weaning. We never did work out what the problem was but changed both pups onto the same diet as the Rottweiler (tinned Butcher's Tripe and plain dog biscuits). I have honestly never seen anything like it. She appeared to be enthusiastic at meal times but sat looking at her dish when given it as if she was going to burst into tears. Much more recently (she will be 2 in June), she decided that she didn't want water on her meals and the meat and biscuits must not be mixed together. They can be in the same dish but she likes to eat the meat first, followed by the dry biscuits. As a family we have had a lot of Labs and never known one like her, where food is concerned.



ETA our Labs have usually had their biggest meal at 6.00pm and a smaller, just biscuits/kibble, breakfast and supper but, because the Rottweiler has to have 3 equal sized meals, these Labs follow the same pattern as her (meat and biscuits).

 

[SAujla]

I'd say 40g does feel like too much, it's hard to say but it worked. He might start expecting 40g every night now, where food is concerned they know what they are doing. I know exactly how you feel in waking up but not daring too move, it's like who's house is it??? The dogs obviously ?

 

[Sandstone1]

Personally I would give about 20 gm soaked and frozen in a kong. I would also think about getting him to poo later in the evening. Try taking him for a short walk if that will help. Putting a que on actually having a poo will help as it will encourage him to go. Its easy to do. just choose a word to use and every time he gos say the word and praise. He will link the word with going for a poo and in future will be encouraged to perform when you want him to. Its very useful.

 

[Clodagh]

I feed at 7am and 4pm. They get a bonio or similar at bedtime (9ish).
We do take them for a short walk at 7pm when they go and poo. Ours dpn't poo in the garden so 200m up the field edge and back works for them.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

Ours are fed at 8am and around 5pm depending on when I get in. Last thing at night they go out in the garden and get a bonio on return. On very rare occasions one will get us up to go outside. This seems to work for us.

 

[Kat_Bath]

We have a Lab who, aged 6 months suddenly went off the kibble that she had been eating since weaning. We never did work out what the problem was but changed both pups onto the same diet as the Rottweiler (tinned Butcher's Tripe and plain dog biscuits). I have honestly never seen anything like it. She appeared to be enthusiastic at meal times but sat looking at her dish when given it as if she was going to burst into tears. Much more recently (she will be 2 in June), she decided that she didn't want water on her meals and the meat and biscuits must not be mixed together. They can be in the same dish but she likes to eat the meat first, followed by the dry biscuits. As a family we have had a lot of Labs and never known one like her, where food is concerned.

ETA our Labs have usually had their biggest meal at 6.00pm and a smaller, just biscuits/kibble, breakfast and supper but, because the Rottweiler has to have 3 equal sized meals, these Labs follow the same pattern as her (meat and biscuits).

Ohhh, bless her! I was talking to my friend about Harvey and she said asked what had happened to make this happen and I had to say I didn't know but that I guess dogs change like we do and their bodies change. So I don't blame him at all. I also always forget he is nearly 7 - in my eyes he will always be 4 which is the age he was when we got him. The reality is though, he has changed a lot since we got him and his little grey beard is growing just a tiny bit each year.

I'd say 40g does feel like too much, it's hard to say but it worked. He might start expecting 40g every night now, where food is concerned they know what they are doing. I know exactly how you feel in waking up but not daring too move, it's like who's house is it??? The dogs obviously ?

Most definitely the dog's house, without fail. He is Lord of the Manor (we do not live a manor but you can't say Lord of the Two Up, Two Down!) and I quite often refer to him as "Your Majesty"...

Personally I would give about 20 gm soaked and frozen in a kong. I would also think about getting him to poo later in the evening. Try taking him for a short walk if that will help. Putting a que on actually having a poo will help as it will encourage him to go. Its easy to do. just choose a word to use and every time he gos say the word and praise. He will link the word with going for a poo and in future will be encouraged to perform when you want him to. Its very useful.

He quite often has a soaked and frozen kong for his lunch but it could definitely be moved to evening - that's a very good shout. Do you know, I never thought to train the poops. I have taught him a good few things and am just starting to do a tiny bit more scent work with him and he responds really well to training so I'll give this a go. Quite often, I will use the phrase "do the poops" but will think about how to shorten this and start phasing it in. I should have known to try this really as my friend's guide dog was trained in this way (or similar at least).

When we first got him, we used to do an evening walk but it got phased out as he lost the excess weight he needed to. Recently though, we have started it again, mostly due to our own cabin fever, and it'll continue now for sure as it helps all 3 of us and hopefully, the poops will happen!

I feed at 7am and 4pm. They get a bonio or similar at bedtime (9ish).
We do take them for a short walk at 7pm when they go and poo. Ours dpn't poo in the garden so 200m up the field edge and back works for them.

Later is quite sensible - maybe we'll trial a week at 5pm (what we do atm anyway) and see what happens. If nothing happens, we can try 7pm and see what happens. So many things to try! Poor sod won't know if he's coming or going!

Ours are fed at 8am and around 5pm depending on when I get in. Last thing at night they go out in the garden and get a bonio on return. On very rare occasions one will get us up to go outside. This seems to work for us.

Thanks Errin - it's interesting to hear about when others feed. I've just always done 7.30am ish and 6pm but it's good to know other times work too - just have to find what suits for us. If he is quick in the garden at night, he does get a salmon crunchie but more often that not, he rolls around like a loon for ages before he contemplates weeing and no matter what we've tried, he doesn't get quicker unless he's desperate. I thought about evening snacks after going out but am afraid we'll encourage taking ages as I don't think he's clever enough to realise if he's quicker, he'll get it quicker so we're trying before for now. That said, he's also not that stupid so he would soon learn that no matter how long he took, he would get a snack so...!

He is currently lying next to me, half on, half off his bed, fast asleep, like butter wouldn't melt, unaware of all the conversation he is causing. As much as he is PITA sometimes, I love him a lot but I couldn't have done lockdown without him!

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Glad to hear it went well tonight/this morning. I'm sure you'll figure out which size of portions to give when, and of what, that works for both him, and you, with a bit of trial and error.

I have to admit that even though I measure up my bitches other daily food portions, I've just used eye measurement when giving them their smaller evening meal. I usually measure their feed in decilitres, but since this post made me curious, I've just weighed up all their different meal portions in gram.

My bitches are not as big as a Labrador in size, and they presumably eat a different brand of food than yours. Actually, Jonna eats a different dry food than Beata, and Blomma, and their food is a little bit different in weight. But perhaps it might still be interesting for you to see how I've chosen to spread out their daily portions.

1st meal = around 30-40g each.
2nd meal = around 60-70g each.
3rd meal = around 30-40g each.
4th meal = without including their 2 slices of boiled carrot, around 10-20g each.

By the way, I totally understand you not wanting to eat around 6, and him having to wait to 7pm for his dinner. I grew up with that you didn't eat lunch around noon, without dinner, and that's what I still do, and I build my bitches food schedule around that they get a meal when I eat dinner. Against what most experts suggests, I even give them their food first, before getting my dinner from the kitchen.
I find it much easier to teach a puppy to not beg to share my dinner, if I know that they've just eaten theirs. It's a routine which works for me, so I continue with it, even now when they're old, and have since long learnt not to beg.