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clairefeekerry1

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so further on from my posts things are rapidly falling apart. since he's been back from RVC (7 weeks) he's had his saddle changed and medicated hock and back, even tho the vets said the x rays were so so minor. since he's been back he has never been sound ridden in the school but was on the pessoa. he was sound ish hacking out. the last few days he's started this hopping again out hacking and today he started on the lunge which he's never done before. this horse lunges beautifully normally. today i could barely get him to move. although he doesnt 'hop' in this clip you can see all is not well. times this by 100 and this is what he does in ridden trot. tell me what you think. sorry, one handed video clip and trying to lunge not easy, hope the movement doesnt cause any sickness but you get the idea!
 
hi again
.i am rubbish at lameness diagnostics but i can see hes really uncomfortable and looks front end to me..
have they advised lunging as i know it puts a lot more strain on them and i thought you had to do lots of straight lines initially.
ignore me if youve been advised differently.
i can see why you are so frustrated he does look lovley .my stamp of a horse.
 
Forgive me for asking, as I haven't read all the previous info you have posted, but has a good level of bute made a significant difference to him. If it hasn't ( & I suspect it may not have done given the extensive testing you have had done), the you need to consider sometime systemmic and/or metabolic. eg: EPMS or some neurological or muscular damage ,possibly in the neck area relating to the rabbit-hole incident.

The Epms can be tested for ( tho' be aware that testing isn't 100%), for the neuro damage, have you considered acupuncture?. I can recommend a very good person if you want, depending where you are. I am by no means an "alternative therapy" type of person, but have seen good results from acupuncture. Pm me if you would prefer.
 
debs The vets at rvc put him on a lungning program to build up his back muscles. He was going brill on the lunge for weeks and weeks now. My bute finished two days ago which probably explaines why its all going wrong now although he was never sound ridden in the school even on bute. Also the injections he had in his hock and back will be wearing off now. On 2 bute a day he was def better but still not any better ridden in the school.
 
Hi quizzie. He's been on bute for the last 6 weeks on quite a high dose then grad reducing. Even on the bute he was never right ridden in the school but was significantly better on the lunge and hacking. The bute has stopped in the last few days so guess this is why its all gone wrong again so he must be in some degree of pain. Whether this is the full story I dont know. I've been to 3 different vet practices and none of them think its front end/ rabbit hole related. He went to a specialist neuro department for tests and no abnormalities were found. One of the vets is fully qualified in accupuncture and has never mentioned that this would be suitable for him. :-(
 
Lovely horse, poor chap really doesn't look comfortable, but bless him is trying.
I know you've seen lots of vets, but we swear by Peter Schofield at Hird & Partners at Halifax. He's used by a lot of Dressage people. Lameness is his forte. He will also be honest about treatment and prognosis ... My mum had an import with soft tissue damage in the hoof. I'm sure you could get some advise on previous case notes and video. Although accept you've been round the houses already.... He is highly regarded though so thought I'd mention it.
 
The reason I was suggesting acupuncture is that I had a horse that looked very similar on the lunge, ie very reluctant to go forward at all/difficult to decide which of the 4 legs he was sore on/ almost unco-ordinated. In his case it was bilateral forefoot lameness(which your tests would have discovered), but he had a lot of tightness in the lower neck/shoulder region as a result, & freeing up this area helped a lot.

As you may know, only vets are allowed to do animal acupuncture, some are considerably more experienced in equine acupuncture than others.the person I am thinking of does only equine acupuncture after moving on from general equine practice..It might be no good, but just a thought,& can do no harm!

Do consider the EPMS too.
 
I also agree it is very possibly EPSM or similar. Especially the hopping and reluctance to go forward

My last horse had it, but he wasn't quite as bad so bute never really made any difference.

All his blood tests came back fine it was only a muscle biopsy that proved it. I had already started him on the diet and seen a difference in him when the biopsy was done.
 
Thank you soulful. So what is this diet then? He's currently just fed pony cubes and hi fi lite. About half a scoop each a day with a spillers multi vit. Grass he is on is very short although a large field. He is am average doer.
 
clairefeekerry1 said:
Thank you soulful. So what is this diet then? He's currently just fed pony cubes and hi fi lite. About half a scoop each a day with a spillers multi vit. Grass he is on is very short although a large field. He is am average doer.
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AS with most things each horse is different some lose weight and muscle others are fat. Some are already fed quite high starch diets others similar to yours

My lad was on similar to yours when it first started, He started off just not having energy so I increased feed and this also increased starch (without me releasing). He got worse instead of better

My lad ended up being one that could still show symptoms while being fed what seemed like a low starch diet. It was actually adding the oil that helped him.

So in short it has to be low starch high oil. Like I said my lad needed the oil so it was added in the form of rapeseed oil from the supermarket. It went up to 1/2 a lt a day at one time. you also need to feed a vit E and selenium supplement.
I would look at replacing the cubes with saracens relieve or similar mix/cube for horses that tie up. lots of feed places do them now. Then add oil, slowly increasing it until it makes a difference (if its that)

It could take 2 or 3 months to see a good improvement as it takes them at least 6 weeks for their bodies to learn to use the oil.

However if your lucky like me you will see a small improvement in 2 to 3 wks

Oddly after the first few weeks horses with EPSM don't seem to suffer as bad with weight gain from using the oil as none epsm horses

I still had problems building up the muscle in his back end so added baileys outshine which worked so fabulously once it was built up he didn't need it

This is a great site, don't be put off because it says 'draft' horses

http://www.ruralheritage.com/vet_clinic/epsm.htm
 
Thank you. I suppose if I switch to a diet like that anyway it wont do any harm will it? Or will that much oil cause a problem if he doesn need it?
 
It's so much harder watching a video rather than seeing him IRL. He doesn't look right, my eyes were drawn to his hind legs in particular.

I really hope that there is a solution for you, it must be heartbreaking to be on this endless quest to find the answer to what is wrong with him.
 
CFK, is he going back to the RVC to see if the lunging program has helped? And is your school very dry at the moment? My lad has joint damage in one stifle and I'm really noticing that a dry, looser school surface definitely does not agree with him. Hard to tell from the video but to me it looks like that inside hind is landing very much toe first with the whole leg looking very upright.
 
Hi bubbles. Yep thats exactly how I see it and interestingly rvc have just rung back and said exactly the same thing re the school and loose dry surface. They have said to put him back on a small amount of bute and stick to hacking him out for a while to allow him to find what works best for him.
 
The thing that jumped out at me from that video was that he appears to have a very weak looking lumbar area - almost a hollow in front of his croup - which is very unusual to see in a horse that has been pessoaed regularly. He also doesn't appear to lift or swing his back at all so i would be investigating his back more closely. Of course this could all be secondary to the root cause but i thought I'd add my two penn'orth :)

Re the saddle - have you considered trying a treeless? The better quality ones like the heather moffett or the solution can be hired a week at a time before you decide to buy.

Another possibility could be a C7 problem. This is a very hard vertebra to get at or manipulate so a good chiropractor is the best person to look for that - I don't think you could get a good x ray of it. Sorry if this sounds disjointed I'm just typing as ideas pop into my head....
 
It's definately a backend lameness, he was actually taking even strides in front.
I nearly wrote 'hindlimb' instead of 'backend' but it doesn't quite look like the limb

It's baffling isn't it. Spinal cord damage? Referred pain from elsewhere?

Sorry I'm not being much help am I, but I really feel for you it must be so frustrating and heartbreaking.

Hmmm..... I will watch the vid again and ponder some more......
 
Bubbles said:
Interesting... did he have his back legs nerve blocked top to bottom to identify any areas other than the hocks?
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both his hind legs inc stifles have been nerve blocked with no difference. the sacroliilic joint was also nerve blocked with no difference. no abnormalities were found on the hock x rays. the only nerve block that gave a slight improvement was left metatarsil?
 
Brownmare said:
The thing that jumped out at me from that video was that he appears to have a very weak looking lumbar area - almost a hollow in front of his croup - which is very unusual to see in a horse that has been pessoaed regularly. He also doesn't appear to lift or swing his back at all so i would be investigating his back more closely. Of course this could all be secondary to the root cause but i thought I'd add my two penn'orth :)

Re the saddle - have you considered trying a treeless? The better quality ones like the heather moffett or the solution can be hired a week at a time before you decide to buy.

Another possibility could be a C7 problem. This is a very hard vertebra to get at or manipulate so a good chiropractor is the best person to look for that - I don't think you could get a good x ray of it. Sorry if this sounds disjointed I'm just typing as ideas pop into my head....
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hi, he has only been on the pessoa for about 3 weeks. previous to that he's had 6 months off turned out so done v little but yes vets agree very little muscle around the lumber area. his spine has been x rayed and nothing major. 2 vertabrate just behind the saddle were 'close' but nowhere near touching. nothing showed on the bone scan for this area. the rvc commented his back was 'extremely' stiff and would need alot of work correct work to get it supple again.

re the saddle- i have balance international coming out v soon with some saddle ideas- are they treeless??
re the C7, his neck has been x rayed twice with v powerful x ray machine, however vets said bone scan is to pick up things like C7, and nothing showed.
 
foxy1 said:
It's definately a backend lameness, he was actually taking even strides in front.
I nearly wrote 'hindlimb' instead of 'backend' but it doesn't quite look like the limb

It's baffling isn't it. Spinal cord damage? Referred pain from elsewhere?

Sorry I'm not being much help am I, but I really feel for you it must be so frustrating and heartbreaking.

Hmmm..... I will watch the vid again and ponder some more......
Click to expand...

it is weird isn't it.
he had a full neuro work up at RVC neurology department and no abnormalities were found. this includes a ridden neuro test as well.
the only thing that had an improvment to his way of going was the nerve block to the left metatarsil?, oh and a different saddle
 
Agree with above, I really really would do some reading on EPSM and rhabdomyolysis syndrome and see if it rings any bells.

The tests are not terribly accurate, and even Snip, whomhas a biopsy diagnosis, still shows very little muscle enzyme rise when he's tying up, baffles my vet!

If I were you I would cut out all sugars and starches from hisndiet, that includes your hi fi and cubes, the best diet I've found is alfa a oil with some speedi beet. Start building up his oil intake until youre giving him around 700ml per day, and get yourself a tub of selenevite E.

You should start to see a difference after around four weeks, if this is the problem. If you do see a difference then you have a good argument for getting bloods/biopsy done if you want to be sure...or you can just assume diagnosis by the result of the feeding change.

worst case, the oil diet makes no difference and you are no worse off than currently, but I have known people to get their horse back after the dote change. Although the changes should start after four weeks, the improvements will continue over several months.

Gorgeous horse. Back end movement looks very much how my boy moves when he's having problems.
 
I think he's lame in all four feet and stiff in the major muscle groups too and that to me says EPSM as well.

Cheapest source for vitamin E in teh 12000-30000iu range that you need is somewhere like simplysupplements.co.uk, buy the extra strength pills and cut them open and squeeze them into his food.

I used Tesco vegetable oil with mine with no problems, and it's cheap. 500ml a day in speedibeet.

Be careful/watchful if you worm him (try not to for a while if your yard will allow). It can upset them badly, mine used to tie up after a wormer.

LOVELY horse, don't give up yet - try the diet for a month
 
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Okant thanks so much guys. Off today to go and source new diet for him. He has the temperment to match so really dont want to give up on him. Will let you know how I get on with diet. X
 
And I'm happy to communicate via pm ongoing too, would hate to think you felt like you were on your own, I've had so much support through forums, my turn to give something back!
 
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