Update..Grumpy/nappy 6yr old mare

[charlotte79]

So I have now had 2 vets out to see sky. Both have said pretty sure its 'behavioural' but she is going in for xrays and scoping next monday. Since the bute trial (which made no difference) I have been lunging and longreining....and to be honest I'm at my wits end. I get her going forward on lunge but when longreined afterwards everytime she doesn't want to go forward she vertically rears...and spins...strikes out...and she is quick...and no I won't pull her over. After this behaviour to be honest I'm thinking its less likely to be pain. She is pretty stroppy to be handled full stop. Now I've been around horses all my life and am no novice but this behaviour is dangerous and if no pain then its learnt. Shes only 6 and I've since found out shes already 'slipped' over with one rider and used to rear with another girl. Funny what comes out the woodwork after you do some serious digging. So I'm in a dilemma as what to do. I know what my vets have said and also my instructor. What are peoples views on this?

 

[TuscanBunnyGirl]

Oh I'm so so so sorry for you I feel your pain as had one exactly the same. Bought direct from breeder only to dig out some info from grooms a few months later. I had an amazing chiropractor some to see her and it made a MASSIVE difference -she never came 100% but it was nice to see a difference. Have you tried her on a gut balancer? Protexin is awesome stuff. Have you got another pair of exceedingly KIND (not push over) hands to help you? your poor mare (and you now!) sound very troubled x

 

[ycbm]

Do your vets know that bute often makes no difference to kissing spines problems, according to my vet? Your horse sounds in pain to me, I hope that you find out what her problem is. Well done for pursuing it with the vet. Will you update us next week?

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Do your vets know that bute often makes no difference to kissing spines problems, according to my vet? Your horse sounds in pain to me, I hope that you find out what her problem is. Well done for pursuing it with the vet. Will you update us next week?

This, a bute trial made no difference in the behaviour to my mare who turned out to have kissing spines.

 

[be positive]

Your last thread said she was seriously reactive to pressure points which does suggest pain not behaviour as the root cause, just because a short bute trial has made little difference does not rule out pain, rearing may be learned behaviour but there will have nearly always been a trigger that set it off, that said it is the one vice I will not accept and if no physical reason could be found and a bit of serious long reining cannot get them through it there would be only one option left, well two if I wanted to keep and turn away for the rest of her life.

I would be interested as to why your vet has changed their opinion with just the bute trial to go on.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?738368-UPDATE-grumpy-nappy-6yr-mare

 

[TheMule]

Sounds like a clear case of pain related issues to me. Horses are flight animals. They don't expend unecessary energy just being deliberately bad imo

 

[charlotte79]

Oh I'm so so so sorry for you I feel your pain as had one exactly the same. Bought direct from breeder only to dig out some info from grooms a few months later. I had an amazing chiropractor some to see her and it made a MASSIVE difference -she never came 100% but it was nice to see a difference. Have you tried her on a gut balancer? Protexin is awesome stuff. Have you got another pair of exceedingly KIND (not push over) hands to help you? your poor mare (and you now!) sound very troubled x

I have a chiro on standby..depending on vet outcome. Yes its a horrid situation and once behaviour is learnt I'm afraid they'll always revert back to it in times of doubt/stress/defiance ...I also don't want to get hurt. I have the yard boss who is renowned for taking on difficult horses...she has been helping but feels its a losing battle. 'You can lead a horse.to water but can't make it drink' she says!! I will try some protexin

 

[charlotte79]

Your last thread said she was seriously reactive to pressure points which does suggest pain not behaviour as the root cause, just because a short bute trial has made little difference does not rule out pain, rearing may be learned behaviour but there will have nearly always been a trigger that set it off, that said it is the one vice I will not accept and if no physical reason could be found and a bit of serious long reining cannot get them through it there would be only one option left, well two if I wanted to keep and turn away for the rest of her life.

I would be interested as to why your vet has changed their opinion with just the bute trial to go on.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?738368-UPDATE-grumpy-nappy-6yr-mare

First vet.away on holiday...second vet said she was far too reactive with hardly any pressure ...making him lean towards it behaviour (he did say that.it could be pain memory and thats the reason shes reacting so bad). He said a bute trial would've ruled out muscle soreness etc but not ks..but he felt she would've reacted in a different way if it were ks....he is going to xray but feels it isn't as he's seen plenty of horses with ks. I was pretty upset after the visit to.be honest as I really don't want it to be behavioural

 

[charlotte79]

Your last thread said she was seriously reactive to pressure points which does suggest pain not behaviour as the root cause, just because a short bute trial has made little difference does not rule out pain, rearing may be learned behaviour but there will have nearly always been a trigger that set it off, that said it is the one vice I will not accept and if no physical reason could be found and a bit of serious long reining cannot get them through it there would be only one option left, well two if I wanted to keep and turn away for the rest of her life.

I would be interested as to why your vet has changed their opinion with just the bute trial to go on.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?738368-UPDATE-grumpy-nappy-6yr-mare

Do your vets know that bute often makes no difference to kissing spines problems, according to my vet? Your horse sounds in pain to me, I hope that you find out what her problem is. Well done for pursuing it with the vet. Will you update us next week?

Yes he said it would only rule out muscle soreness etc hence he is going ahead with xrays but feels she would've had a different reaction if it were ks...she was pinning ears backing away from pressure...he said with ks they tend to dip or drop back...but he is investigating futher and I trust him

 

[Slightlyconfused]

First vet.away on holiday...second vet said she was far too reactive with hardly any pressure ...making him lean towards it behaviour (he did say that.it could be pain memory and thats the reason shes reacting so bad). He said a bute trial would've ruled out muscle soreness etc but not ks..but he felt she would've reacted in a different way if it were ks....he is going to xray but feels it isn't as he's seen plenty of horses with ks. I was pretty upset after the visit to.be honest as I really don't want it to be behavioural

My sisters exracer had KS, four processea fused..... We only found out when he went one tenths lame behind when ridden and he was a bit sore on his back but nothing to right home about. But he bucked at the vet when he pressed over his sacroiliac area. If his sacroiliac wasn't hurting then we wouldn't have found the KS.


They all so it in different ways and it affects them all in different ways, my warmblood would rear vertical and bronc to get you off your back.

 

[charlotte79]

Your last thread said she was seriously reactive to pressure points which does suggest pain not behaviour as the root cause, just because a short bute trial has made little difference does not rule out pain, rearing may be learned behaviour but there will have nearly always been a trigger that set it off, that said it is the one vice I will not accept and if no physical reason could be found and a bit of serious long reining cannot get them through it there would be only one option left, well two if I wanted to keep and turn away for the rest of her life.

I would be interested as to why your vet has changed their opinion with just the bute trial to go on.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?738368-UPDATE-grumpy-nappy-6yr-mare

Do your vets know that bute often makes no difference to kissing spines problems, according to my vet? Your horse sounds in pain to me, I hope that you find out what her problem is. Well done for pursuing it with the vet. Will you update us next week?

My sisters exracer had KS, four processea fused..... We only found out when he went one tenths lame behind when ridden and he was a bit sore on his back but nothing to right home about. But he bucked at the vet when he pressed over his sacroiliac area. If his sacroiliac wasn't hurting then we wouldn't have found the KS.


They all so it in different ways and it affects them all in different ways, my warmblood would rear vertical and bronc to get you off your back.

My other mare tore her back ligament a few yrs back and the only signals she gave me were some bucks when schooling (which she never did) and she got terrified of traffic!? Which is why I'm pushing for full investigation. I just feel so bad for her atm

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I have a chiro on standby..depending on vet outcome. Yes its a horrid situation and once behaviour is learnt I'm afraid they'll always revert back to it in times of doubt/stress/defiance ...I also don't want to get hurt. I have the yard boss who is renowned for taking on difficult horses...she has been helping but feels its a losing battle. 'You can lead a horse.to water but can't make it drink' she says!! I will try some protexin

No, they don't always revert, after the cause of the pain has been removed/resolved. I had a TBx mare who appeared go have behavioural issues. She became increasingly difficult to handle and impossible to ride, the slightest unexpected noise set her off, it took two people to lead her, with her companions across an empty field to get to her stable.
Then we found that she was reacting to ingredients in her feed. For the rest of her life, she only ate grass, in molassed sugar best and alfalfa, which she could tolerate. Her behaviour changed beyond all recognition, she never stood on two legs again, one person could easily take her anywhere.

Your mare sounds as if she is in pain somwehere. What is she fed? It could, of course be KS, a bute trial certainly doesn't rule it out. I certainly don't understand your vet's reasoning about the pressure. Have you access to a vet who specialises in back problems?

 

[charlotte79]

Your last thread said she was seriously reactive to pressure points which does suggest pain not behaviour as the root cause, just because a short bute trial has made little difference does not rule out pain, rearing may be learned behaviour but there will have nearly always been a trigger that set it off, that said it is the one vice I will not accept and if no physical reason could be found and a bit of serious long reining cannot get them through it there would be only one option left, well two if I wanted to keep and turn away for the rest of her life.

I would be interested as to why your vet has changed their opinion with just the bute trial to go on.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?738368-UPDATE-grumpy-nappy-6yr-mare

Do your vets know that bute often makes no difference to kissing spines problems, according to my vet? Your horse sounds in pain to me, I hope that you find out what her problem is. Well done for pursuing it with the vet. Will you update us next week?

My sisters exracer had KS, four processea fused..... We only found out when he went one tenths lame behind when ridden and he was a bit sore on his back but nothing to right home about. But he bucked at the vet when he pressed over his sacroiliac area. If his sacroiliac wasn't hurting then we wouldn't have found the KS.


They all so it in different ways and it affects them all in different ways, my warmblood would rear vertical and bronc to get you off your back.

No, they don't always revert, after the cause of the pain has been removed/resolved. I had a TBx mare who appeared go have behavioural issues. She became increasingly difficult to handle and impossible to ride, the slightest unexpected noise set her off, it took two people to lead her, with her companions across an empty field to get to her stable.
Then we found that she was reacting to ingredients in her feed. For the rest of her life, she only ate grass, in molassed sugar best and alfalfa, which she could tolerate. Her behaviour changed beyond all recognition, she never stood on two legs again, one person could easily take her anywhere.

Your mare sounds as if she is in pain somwehere. What is she fed? It could, of course be KS, a bute trial certainly doesn't rule it out. I certainly don't understand your vet's reasoning about the pressure. Have you access to a vet who specialises in back problems?

Unfortunately no access to back specialist . She is basically really unhappy about having anybody near her...so before vet even touched her she was pinning ears and making faces...shes ok with just me but with 2 people around her gets pretty narky. Especially when they start touching her. so he suggested its her behaviour but didnt rule out pain completely. I must admit I was very upset after visit feeling very low. So many questions afterwards but have spoken since and as I said before we are going ahead with xrays/scoping. With a household to run and my other horse/dogs...insurance only covers so much ...I really hope we can get to the bottom of it. Shes only 6 and been through so much already!
She is out 24/7 on haylage when in stable...she gets 2 small feeds a day (handfuls,) of soaked grass nuts with alfalfa mollasses free and nupafeed mah calm supplement and naf balancer.

 

[SEL]

Bute doesn't work for muscle pain relating to PSSM either - interesting people say it's also not effective for kissing spine because that's on my list for discussion with my vet next week.

Hope you get to the bottom of your horses problem. I share your pain right now.

 

[ycbm]

Bute doesn't work for muscle pain relating to PSSM either - interesting people say it's also not effective for kissing spine because that's on my list for discussion with my vet next week.

Hope you get to the bottom of your horses problem. I share your pain right now.

I had my kissing spines horse on four a day waiting for his operation, and he was still uncomfortable. It was after that a new and very experienced vet told me bute doesn't work for kissing spines.

I didn't know it didn't work for PSSM either, and I have two of them. Can you check how hard her bum muscles are compared to other horses in the yard, because PSSM can be easy to deal with in lower level cases like mine?

 

[dixie]

Also a Bute trial will irritate ulcers if she has them, I wouldn't be surprised if she had them plus an underlying condition Hope you get to the bottom of her problems. It does sound like she's in a lot of pain.

 

[charlotte79]

Your last thread said she was seriously reactive to pressure points which does suggest pain not behaviour as the root cause, just because a short bute trial has made little difference does not rule out pain, rearing may be learned behaviour but there will have nearly always been a trigger that set it off, that said it is the one vice I will not accept and if no physical reason could be found and a bit of serious long reining cannot get them through it there would be only one option left, well two if I wanted to keep and turn away for the rest of her life.

I would be interested as to why your vet has changed their opinion with just the bute trial to go on.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?738368-UPDATE-grumpy-nappy-6yr-mare

Do your vets know that bute often makes no difference to kissing spines problems, according to my vet? Your horse sounds in pain to me, I hope that you find out what her problem is. Well done for pursuing it with the vet. Will you update us next week?

My sisters exracer had KS, four processea fused..... We only found out when he went one tenths lame behind when ridden and he was a bit sore on his back but nothing to right home about. But he bucked at the vet when he pressed over his sacroiliac area. If his sacroiliac wasn't hurting then we wouldn't have found the KS.


They all so it in different ways and it affects them all in different ways, my warmblood would rear vertical and bronc to get you off your back.

No, they don't always revert, after the cause of the pain has been removed/resolved. I had a TBx mare who appeared go have behavioural issues. She became increasingly difficult to handle and impossible to ride, the slightest unexpected noise set her off, it took two people to lead her, with her companions across an empty field to get to her stable.
Then we found that she was reacting to ingredients in her feed. For the rest of her life, she only ate grass, in molassed sugar best and alfalfa, which she could tolerate. Her behaviour changed beyond all recognition, she never stood on two legs again, one person could easily take her anywhere.

Your mare sounds as if she is in pain somwehere. What is she fed? It could, of course be KS, a bute trial certainly doesn't rule it out. I certainly don't understand your vet's reasoning about the pressure. Have you access to a vet who specialises in back problems?

Unfortunately no access to back specialist . She is basically really unhappy about having anybody near her...so before vet even touched her she was pinning ears and making faces...shes ok with just me but with 2 people around her gets pretty narky. Especially when they start touching her. so he suggested its her behaviour but didnt rule out pain completely. I must admit I was very upset after visit feeling very low. So many questions afterwards but have spoken since and as I said before we are going ahead with xrays/scoping. With a household to run and my other horse/dogs...insurance only covers so much ...I really hope we can get to the bottom of it. Shes only 6 and been through so much already!
She is out 24/7 on haylage when in stable...she gets 2 small feeds a day (handfuls,) of soaked grass nuts with alfalfa mollasses free and nupafeed mah calm supplement and naf balancer.

I had my kissing spines horse on four a day waiting for his operation, and he was still uncomfortable. It was after that a new and very experienced vet told me bute doesn't work for kissing spines.

I didn't know it didn't work for PSSM either, and I have two of them. Can you check how hard her bum muscles are compared to other horses in the yard, because PSSM can be easy to deal with in lower level cases

I can compare them to my eventer...although she is super fit and muscly...would that make a difference...how should they feel? If not there is a yard just down the road I could go groping bums on (if I don't laugh...I shall cry and have done plenty already,)

 

[ycbm]

No. Seriously, go poking bums, it's the only way when you pat/thump them firmly on the big rump muscles, you should see the ripple spread out from where you pat/thump them into the whole of the backside. When mine are wrong, the thump stays in the one place and nothing ripples out.

I would describe the difference as between thumping a sandbag and thumping a thick set blancmange.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Unfortunately no access to back specialist . She is basically really unhappy about having anybody near her...so before vet even touched her she was pinning ears and making faces...shes ok with just me but with 2 people around her gets pretty narky. Especially when they start touching her. so he suggested its her behaviour but didnt rule out pain completely. I must admit I was very upset after visit feeling very low. So many questions afterwards but have spoken since and as I said before we are going ahead with xrays/scoping. With a household to run and my other horse/dogs...insurance only covers so much ...I really hope we can get to the bottom of it. Shes only 6 and been through so much already!
She is out 24/7 on haylage when in stable...she gets 2 small feeds a day (handfuls,) of soaked grass nuts with alfalfa mollasses free and nupafeed mah calm supplement and naf balancer.

Take her off everything, except the grass nuts and I will bet that you will see a difference in her behaviour within 2 weeks. Many horses cannot tolerate alfalfa, which I am pretty sure has been said before on yourcthreads and NAF products are extremely well named, they contain ingredients which horses just don't need. I speak from experience.

 

[SEL]

I think it's something to do with bute reducing inflammation whereas PSSM is not actually inflammation. Not the best scientist sadly but I know it makes no difference to my mare. I also know a couple of people who got to PSSM diagnosis after a 'fail' on a bute trial.

Definitely go around poking bottoms! The non PSSM horses are various squishy sofa types, even the super fit ones. My mare right now has the bottom of one of those brand new leather sofas with no give in them. She'd also kick you if you touched her. Changing rugs this evening was a marathon of teeth & hoof dodging. It did make me realise that she's not bounced back like she usually does though, so vet out to take bloods.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Grass nuts are quite high in sugar so if you are looking at PSSM (I haven't read all the posts you've made but a quick skim makes it sound likely, ulcers could be secondary) I would ditch them.

In fact I would ditch everything except hay and natural vitamin e 5000-10000iu per day and see how she is then.

Protexin also unsuitable for PSSM horses.

Also sorry to be a party pooper but my horse has never had solid muscles at any time.