Update on Bargain Horse and advice please

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JoJo_

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Some of you may remember a friend of mine bought a BSJA showjumper for very cheap and I was very sceptical. She has had him since before xmas now but had to wait for a fitting saddle and now the snow has stopped her from being able to ride.

Today was the first day she managed to get back to work so I asked how she was doing with him and she is having some problems with his bit.

He was ridden in a waterford loosering snaffle when showjumping - his owner said it was just for better brakes. My friend bought a french link loosering snaffle and she says when she did manage to ride him a few times he was throwing his head forwards and pulling her arms out. When I tried him in his waterford he was very very light in the mouth. Should she get a waterford loose ring? Or are there any milder ones she can try? She says he doesnt like a nutcracker action.
 
the design of a waterford means that they cant lean on it....if this is what he is happy with, go back to it till you get to know the horse better. once you know him, then you can play around with bits. maybe get the help of an instructor to advise you....
 
I would say a dutch gag on the second ring would be stronger than a waterford, as would a kimblewick, as they both have poll pressure.

I would stick to the waterford if he is happy in it until his schooling improves. Also it goes without saying make double sure there are no back or teeth or tack problems which are causing this reaction.
 
providing there is no underlying problems i would stick with the waterford until his schooling gets better. the waterford is designed to stop horses leaning on there bit, it shouldnt have a nutcracker action, nutcrackers are usually only a problem on single jointed bits, when you pull the reins it brings the two sides together pinching the tongue in the single joint hence the nutcracker action
 
I did say to her that my first idea would be get a waterford until she gets to know and then can easily say if its the bit he dislikes. But I said i'd ask on here aswell for advice. I'll ask if shes got his back/teeth checked yet.

I know waterfords have mixed reviews and I was a little unsure she should use one as she is a bit novicey and sometimes uses her hands more than she should. I advised try the french link in the first place.
 
I prefer a waterford over a dutch gag anyday!

They have different actions!
Your friend could try a Dr.Bristol and see how she gets on with that
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Kimblewicks and gags have a different action to a waterford.
 
I assume by trying the french link she was trying to get back to basics to ensure she wasn't over bitting the horse?

I use a waterford sometimes just as a reminder but I don't think I would like to use it permanently. A lot of people use them when jumping for better brakes/steering.

With correct schooling she should be able to get the horse to accept the bit and carry himself without leaning on her hands, this should be achievable in a less harsh bit than the waterford (and obviously only if back/teeth etc are fine).

When I got my horse he was very behind the verticle and would bury his head in his chest and try to take the reins down out of my hands, I put him in a myler (it doesn't have any nutcracker action) and he has started to accept the contact more consistently and positively with less leaning and messing about. It has taken about 3 months and with this weather it is difficult to get into any sort of schooling regime so I do sympathise with your friend in her quest!!

I do however agree with somethingorother in sticking with the waterford until the schooling improves and your friend is better aquainted with the horse.
 
In the wrong hands a waterford is a much stronger bit than a gag or kimblewick IMO and _JoJo_'s friend is, by _JoJo_'s own admission "a bit novicey and sometimes uses her hands more than she should". For me, I would advise a dutch gag, started on the normal ring, and put down to the second when needed. I do not like to see a horse in a waterford unless their rider had very good hands.
 
I'd stick with the waterford. My boy hates jointed bits even with a lozenge/french link and is much happier in a waterford than anything else. Waterfords have a reputation for being harsh but I know quite a few horses who are much happier in them than other bits. Comfort is all and the horse is telling you that he's more comfortable in the waterford.
Have you tried him in the french link? I'm just wondering if she's a bit more heavy handed than you and he's objecting to her hands rather than the bit?
 
I havent had a sit on him again since the day she agreed to buy him.

I'm very much for not over bitting and by the old owner's admission she said the only reason for the waterford was more brakes while sjing.

Wouldnt a dutch gag just cause a similar problem to trying the french link snaffle? I didnt find he tried to lean at all when I rode him. It was quite the opposite. He had a high head carriage and was a bit tense. My friend said his head carriage has lowered now she has a good fitting saddle. If it is the mouthpiece that he dislikes i'm guessing it wont matter whether its a dutch gag or snaffle?
 
We have a show pony the same and it seems to be the fact he has no room in his mouth he is ok in a myler tried neue schule etc, and now trying to get him into a happy mouth as not to bad in that and can show in it....... it has caused him to be mistaken for a headshaker and will do anything to evade a nut cracker. but he is also 5yr old and has he teeth done every 3 months as teeth still erupting.
 
out of interest has he been tried in a straight bar/ mullen mouth/ ported? This will have a milder action and no nutcracker effect, and perhaps something with a bit of poll pressure can be used if it is felt that extra breaks are needed. It complicates things with her not having the best hands... it will be hard to tell if it is the bit or the contact that he is objecting to. And the weather makes it even harder.

I would perhaps say for now that schooling is more important than the bit, and to concentrate on doing lots to get him listening and supple. If this needs to be done in walk and halt only for a certain period then so be it, at least things will be less likely to get worse with this, rather than putting a harsh bit in a horses mouth attached to unsteady hands. In fact maybe it would help to focus on not using hands much with him and getting him listening to seat and leg aids.

My share horse seemed very unhappy and tense when i started schooling him, and this is what i had to do to keep us both relaxed and happy. Every time he went tense (or i did) back to walk we went. Before the snow ruined everything he was going really nice and soft.
 
So far she hasnt tried anything other than the french link snaffle. She hasnt even had him a month and the weather has been difficult. Her arena isnt the best either with a lack of good lighting and drainage. I didnt find brakes to be a problem at all in the waterford so I think if she starts with that and gets an instructor to give some lessons, she can start changing the bit after they get to know each other better.

I'll hopefully get to have another sit on him soon.
 
The last thing I would change at the moment is his bit. Poor nag has been moved yards etc , not exercised due to weather, so his whole life has had a change, just let him get used to his new home and routine then think of other things like his bit later.
 
Back and teeth.... sits on hands...

When jumping keep him in the waterford. there's nothing wrong with them. Mick is like that jumping without a waterford. Listen to what the old owner says, she knows him best.
 
Twisted snaffles can be good for horses that lean, they don't have to be sharp like the ones in the old books, and the twist makes it hard for the horse to get hold and lean. I've tried it with a couple of leaners and it worked much better than a myler. It is also milder than a waterford as the mouthpiece is smoother.

Finding a french link one might be a challenge though as they aren't very popular.......
 
There is nothing wrong with waterfords at all. the only time they are harsh is if they are used with a sawing motion! They don't have an action as such as the mouthpiece collapses and forms to the shape of the mouth.

I wouldnt peronally put anything in a bit with poll action unless absolutely necessary, and HATE dutch gags with a passion, as they give mixed signals to a horse and either force them into sitting behind the bit or carrying their head very high, depending on their sensitivity to poll/leverage action.

The only problem with a waterford is you can never really have a true contact, as it doesnt sit still in the horses mouth. It may be a useful and worthwhile step in the meantime though until she gets used to him
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