update on hard to back pony

[millies]

Following on from my other thead about my cob which is proving hard to back. Physical issues I think have been ruled out and I have done alot of groundwork concentrating on building his confidence around spooky things and things being above him, such as baloons in the arena and clothes on a washing line. iv spent alot of time either just sat on him or sat on a round bale so im above him. No improvement so I have bought a blow up doll, which is named TeSheila. Everyone thinks I am mad. So far TeSheila has been mounting and dismounting from both side and rising whilst hes stood in the stable. But where do I go from here? Once doll is secured to saddle would you start by leading him around, lunging him or let him loose in the arena? I also still arnt anywhere near close to getting the doll on him out of the arena and tbh I dont see this happening anytime soon. So where would you go from here if this was you? P.s i realise asking what you would do with a blow up sex doll and a horse is totaly bizare and a bit wrong but im being completley serious! This is not a troll post

 

[YasandCrystal]

I would be careful strapping any doll to your horse - if uit slips you will out the horse off ridden work for life.
Having just watch Monty Roberts - saddle and back a 4 yr old unbacked youngster in 30 minutes I think that daily repitition and building on each experience is teh answer. Any horse if handled correctly should be easy to back.

 

[Fools Motto]

Have you tried blinkers? It has been known to get the horse to overcome this issue and realise the 'rider' isn't there pretending to be a hungry lion! Then once he is settled with the feeling of 'something' on his back, the blinkers can be removed and he can 'see' the 'lion' and either accept it or buck it off! Either way, it is a step forward and the thing got on him safely. Be aware, it isn't a quick fix and you have to understand and react to his reactions.
Do you have access to a round pen, or an area with high secure fencing? You could just get the doll on board in the stable, and walk the horse around in the stable. You need more pairs of experienced hands to help get doll on in the area/round pen, then I'd just let him go. I prefer this to try hanging on via lines, which could cause issues, and you don't want his mouth pulled to be a negative on the acceptance. AND, as above, be careful with doll, it HAS to be secure.

 

[millies]

Bit of background from previous thread - So far he is perfect to get on and off from either side, lean over and lead around flappujng and waving and sit on flapping and waving. as soon as someone is sat on him and he walks on he panics. he shakes, breathing heavy, compacts himseld and tries to run away. If he cant get away and is pushed further he broncs. His history prior to me having him is vague. He came off a council estate having been 'backed' and 'broken to drive'. so i think somewhere along the line. Hes only ever worked in a cavesson at the moment as he is quite fearful of the bit, though this is another issue im adressing

 

[TarrSteps]

Please don't let him loose with the doll tied on! There are situations where that is possible but it can go very very wrong!

 

[millies]

I was thinking on the lunge in a small circle? but was concéned should he get loose hed have the line around his legs

 

[TarrSteps]

I would be careful strapping any doll to your horse - if uit slips you will out the horse off ridden work for life.
Having just watch Monty Roberts - saddle and back a 4 yr old unbacked youngster in 30 minutes I think that daily repitition and building on each experience is teh answer. Any horse if handled correctly should be easy to back.

I agree about building on experiences.

I'm not sure I completely agree with your last statement though. I'd agree the vast majority are easy but, believe it or not, some are just difficult, even without ever having a negative experience. Others are very sensitive and 'negative' encompasses a very wide spectrum of even relatively minor undesirable situations.

That said, for all we know, this horse has had negative experiences so now it's rehab. I'd much rather do feral horses from scratch than ones with random unknown history but you have to work with what you've got.

 

[Mince Pie]

To be completely honest with you OP my advice would be to turn him away, save up the money and send him to a good professional. I really don't think you have the right experience to be backing this pony yourself.

 

[millies]

without sounding rude and cocky, what would a proffessional do with him?

 

[Mince Pie]

A professional will have broken many different types of horses, therefore will have more 'tools in his toolbox' to find ways to help him overcome his anxiety. They'll also be quicker to spot when one technique isn't working and be able to use another I wasn't trying to sound harsh but I think with the fact that you have said that he has possibly had problems in the past that this would be the better option for this particular pony.

 

[millies]

iv actualy spoke to a couple of professional riders round my area and tbh they are unbelievably expensive! iv had a few offer from other knowledgable riders also but im too concerned about the lack of insurance should anything go wrong. a couple of people in my area have reputations for being quite forceful in their aproach which i would like to avoid. any recomendations in west yorkshire would be greatly appreciated

 

[mystiandsunny]

It sounds as though something really bad happened to him, while moving with a rider on. It will be a case of proving to him that this won't happen again, but his reactions to doing so will be unpredictable, and full of panic. Someone who really knows what they are doing, needs to help him to get past his fear. You could get a local professional to come and help you, if you can't afford to send him away.

 

[TarrSteps]

without sounding rude and cocky, what would a proffessional do with him?

A professional would use his/her experience and education - gained at great cost - to assess the horse moment to moment and make the decisions as they come up on how quickly to progress, what to do next. He/she would likely have a variety of tools in the box and would decide what to use when on the basis of things like the set of the horse's ear, the look in its eye, small reactions - in short, it would be an on-going conversation. A lot of it is feel and timing, which no one on the internet can provide.

It's like any other job. Frankly, most of the time it's not that difficult and any reasonably sensible, knowledgeable person will get the job done. It's those moments when things don't go to plan or when the chips are down, where experience all of a sudden makes the difference between success and failure.

A professional MIGHT be able to stand there with you and the horse and talk you through it in the moment, then give you a short term plan and come back for the next round. This will take longer and be riskier but might be an option.

If you are determined to go it alone the internet is full of videos by various trainers now. You can pick one and work RELIGIOUSLY through a system that appeals, although be aware that if it uses, for instance, a round pen then that's not a suggestion, it's a requirement.

 

[millies]

it sounds silly aswell as i know its theyre job but im worried he would realy hurt someone aswell as he realy is so unpédictable and tbh dangerous sometimes. I have my suspicions he may have been stuck in a cart as he used to be so scared of things behind him and when he came he had massive swellings on each side where the shafts would have brn

 

[JillA]

If, as could be the case, he has been traumatised in the past, clicker training can build in good associations and ensure that you shape the progress - build in tiny increments, rewarding each one as you go. We had one here that never could cope - he trusted one rider and was ridden by her in the manege and even out in a stubble field, but as soon as anyone else got on him he bolted in blind panic. We got him accepting that one rider by beginning indoors and he was less spooked inside 4 walls, in a confined space (I have an American barn system with an area which is just barn).
Research clicker training and shaping, with that he could learn to enjoy the training sessions and where it gets him. The main problem is you are either on or off - it is really hard to break down the first time you sit on him (as opposed to lean over). I don't know where you are but Jen at Pendle Equestrian has an ardal (dummy rider) that she would hire out to ensure no-one risks their neck that first time, and to allow the horse to learn he can't dislodge a rider easily.
Lots of groundwork will build a relationship of trust and respect too, so well worth it - the sort of desensitising and being in control you will find in Kelly Marks' books.

 

[wench]

You could try melanie Watson - shes near Beverley

 

[Mince Pie]

iv actualy spoke to a couple of professional riders round my area and tbh they are unbelievably expensive!

Unfortunately a good breaker will cost a bit, but then the outcome should be a happy pony who is quietly being ridden, and towards the end of the breaking the rider should work with both you and the pony to ensure that you have the confidence to carry on the ridden work when you get him home again. Round here I think the average breaking yard is about £150 a week, but then I'm in the SE! I know it's a lot of money but you could see is as an investment in the yours and the pony's future as it sounds like you plan to keep him as your own ridden pony?

 

[FfionWinnie]

To be completely honest with you OP my advice would be to turn him away, save up the money and send him to a good professional. I really don't think you have the right experience to be backing this pony yourself.

I agree. A proper dummy with a pro who uses it correctly is what you need op, what area are you in? The girl I use to back mine has a dummy and there is no way it could move or come off but it's been carefully designed as such. A blow up doll on that horse is a recipe for disaster (someone posted a similar natured horse crashing through and arena fence and falling down a banking on here, with just a roller on just don't risk it).

 

[millies]

Thanks for the replys. Doll is still proving useful at the moment to get him used to things above him, but i wont attatch it to him. spoke to my instructer today who also has experience breaking alot of youngsters who suggested to 'just get on and ride it, hell come round eventualy' which isnt helpful. I am quite determined to do it my self tbh, i dont have a time limit and im happy to take things slowly. I wouldnt say im a total novice either having broken in quite a few horses, iv just never had one as challenging as this. However i do feel iv taken a step forward after working with him this afternoon as this is the first time hes walked quite calmly with my mum holding a rug on a pole over him

 

[millies]

jillA- that sounds very similer to mine, i can sit on him and walk him round in our small barn and hes ok but outside he just panics. il have a look into clicker training

 

[TarrSteps]

If you're not going to accept help from an actual person then there are many good books on the subject - pick a system that appeals and then work through it. I know you said you're experienced and confident in your system but it helps to have a 'checklist' especially when you're hitting problems.

This isn't really to you, OP, but a general point of confusion. I'm always interested that we accept instruction and apprenticeship as essential in learning how to ride, train and compete well and yet starting horses - arguably the most important part of a horse's education and essential to a good life for a horse - as something people just 'know' how to do and which is open to endless experimentation without any risk to either parry. In the German system they offer a degree in it separate to any of the disciplines and most top pros either hire someone or send their horses out to get started if they are anything other than straightforward.

I'm not saying people shouldn't back their own - it's a great experience! And most horses are very straightforward. But doing a tricky one is a bit like jumping a tricky green horse around a Nov course vs a PN course on an established horse

 

[jenee.gee]

Wish you luck we have same problem. Have an Ardell ok in stable terrified when it 'moved' on his back in lunge arena,

 

[twiggy2]

I can understand the drive to do it yourself and if that is what you would like to do I would still turn away for 3 months or more and use the time to research professionals in your area to work with both you and your horse-maybe a residential week somewhere to get you started?

 

[AshTay]

What saddle are you using? Is it hurting him when he moves off with a weight on his back? I've seen cheap horrid looking saddles on ebay that people buy for breaking in but it makes no sense if they don't fit properly they could cause more harm than good. Also, it's one thing a saddle seeming to fit with no rider on but another with the weight of a person and if the fit hasn't been checked with a rider on it then it might be worth looking into this.
Also, if he's had physical injuries from being driven, are you sure there is nothing subtle still going on that could cause this behaviour - this will be something for the vet, not just a back person.

 

[millies]

saddle is a cheap second hand one but has been fitted so i dont think its that. TS- i understand what your saying completley, i just like the challenge of young or tricky horses myself and this is the first that hasnt worked using my current 'system'. maybe i am being stubbern and iresponsible not sending him to someone else, but by letting someone else do the dirty work il never have the tools in my own box, so to speak, for any tricky horses in the future. unfortunatley i cant just turn him out for a while as he is a serial fence destroyer and despite my best efforts i just cannot keep him in so he is limited to turnout whilst there is someone around on the yard to keep an eye on him.

 

[millies]

hes had a once over from the vet who didnt find anything other than bruising and swelling on his sides but was confident that once these had healed he would be ok. though iv not had xrays,, scans or bloods etc done so i guess physical issues cant be totaly ruled out. Iv had an old irish man out to see him today whose opinion i have the utmost respect for and hes going spend a couople of sessions working with me and him and see where that gets us

 

[TarrSteps]

saddle is a cheap second hand one but has been fitted so i dont think its that. TS- i understand what your saying completley, i just like the challenge of young or tricky horses myself and this is the first that hasnt worked using my current 'system'. maybe i am being stubbern and iresponsible not sending him to someone else, but by letting someone else do the dirty work il never have the tools in my own box, so to speak, for any tricky horses in the future. unfortunatley i cant just turn him out for a while as he is a serial fence destroyer and despite my best efforts i just cannot keep him in so he is limited to turnout whilst there is someone around on the yard to keep an eye on him.

If you read back, I didn't suggest sending him away, I suggested finding someone who can educate you to educate him. Which you now seem to agree is a good plan.

Trust me, I know all about stubborn. I also know - now, finally - that it's not all about me and about what I want, it's about the horse. I understand you don't want to hear that but people said it to me (with varying success) when I was putting my pride first. I was lucky that many of them taught me whether I wanted teaching or not. So now the circle of life goes around.

It seems like you've come to that conclusion yourself so hopefully the fellow you've found will have answers for you.

 

[Vickijay]

Glad to see your getting some proper help. There's no shame in getting someone to help you. I would of done it with any of mine if I'd hit any sort of problem. Fingers crossed he will be more help than a blow up sex doll!

 

[Orangehorse]

I think you are being a bit mean to the OP, who has broken-in previous horses, but has a difficult one with severe issues this time and was asking for any hints and tips from anyone who has had a previous problem of a similar nature, and how it was overcome.

The sad fact is that you might never be able to overcome them. It will be interesting to see what the Old Timer has to say. I think that something very unpleasant happened to your pony before and it might have been such a trauma to him that he can't forget it. It will be sad for you as you hoped you would be able to get him going.

 

[TarrSteps]

I think you are being a bit mean to the OP, who has broken-in previous horses, but has a difficult one with severe issues this time and was asking for any hints and tips from anyone who has had a previous problem of a similar nature, and how it was overcome.

The sad fact is that you might never be able to overcome them. It will be interesting to see what the Old Timer has to say. I think that something very unpleasant happened to your pony before and it might have been such a trauma to him that he can't forget it. It will be sad for you as you hoped you would be able to get him going.

I'm assuming you mean me. In which case, I did give my "tip" which was to find the person who has solved the problem before and beg them to walk you through it. At the very least, to read some of the many fascinating books on the subject - people
like Tom Dorrance and Tom Roberts, up to more modern people like Michael Peace and Richard Maxwell.

The problem with giving Internet "tips" is we aren't there to see the horse so the advice that might be exactly right in one instance might be exactly wrong in another. In many situations, where no one is at risk and the chances are good no real harm will be done, that isn't much of a problem. In situations where there is quite a good chance of having a wreck the people who have been there before, possibly had the wreck and are therefore best placed to advise, are likely to say "get an experienced person to assess and advise". Which is pretty much what the OP has done.

Sorry, but I won't apologise for urging caution. There are plenty of people happy to say "have at it" and the world needs balance. I am well aware that we all learn by experience but I am also well aware that pretty much every problem I have stubbornly tried to solve myself has been sorted more easily and less painfully with help. Until very recently no one asked random strangers about this stuff because the opportunity simply didn't exist. If you wanted to learn to start horses you went to the people who already knew how to do it and you learned from them. Or you went to work for someone who had hundreds of horses and knew all the tricks and got used as cannon fodder until you got useful enough to be given responsibility. At the very least - and likely in addition - you read some of the seminal work on the subject, written by people who had started 100s of horses. (One the men who taught me had worked in one of the big schools in Germany from his apprenticeship then started most of the many foals he bred each year. He had literally started 1000s. Others worked on farms that produced scores of foals every year. Many had broken for different disciplines.) Even most of the people I knew who said they learned "by experience" offed did not because the came from horsey families and were exposed to the process naturally and supervised.

I get that this is not a popular position. I have said repeatedly that I think it's a great experience to start your own horse and that most horses are really not difficult at all. But, as in every profession, most of the training isn't for the time when everything goes according to plan, it's for the times it doesn't. The OP now seems to have found someone who has experience with such situations and can offer "hands on" advice, not "tips".