update on hard to back pony

[Orangehorse]

I agree with what you say,if you have a tricky horse there is no substitute other than to find someone with lots and lots of experience who has seen it before. As they say, every horse you have will teach you something.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

I think you are being a bit mean to the OP, who has broken-in previous horses, but has a difficult one with severe issues this time and was asking for any hints and tips from anyone who has had a previous problem of a similar nature, and how it was overcome.

The sad fact is that you might never be able to overcome them. It will be interesting to see what the Old Timer has to say. I think that something very unpleasant happened to your pony before and it might have been such a trauma to him that he can't forget it. It will be sad for you as you hoped you would be able to get him going.

Lovely big mare I know was sent to be broken, I only met met her once and was told to stand well clear, this was before she went, so even before this backing stage she was a problem.
Took two months to get get her to come out of the stable with a saddle on and a rider on her back [though not for long]. Another six weeks and she arrived back with a dummy [no one would ride her].
Instructions to "keep trying" lol
Only mount from the off side .......... one brief ride, and she is now out in a field and will be for the rest of her life, they dare not breed in case it is in the genes.
In my younger days I might have tried with her but she is big and strong as well as a handful, and since the "backing" now won't tolerate someone on top.

 

[Dry Rot]

I am always reluctant to get involved in these discussions because spookiness is something of a speciality of mine! But my experience in this department is with hawks and falcons which I am always told have nothing to do with horses. Well, they sometimes react in similar ways, so I'll stick my neck out….

Sticking a dummy on a horse's back is what some call flooding. Certainly, it will work (think of bucking broncos) but it has to be continued until the horse basically "gives up". Historically, various things have been tried to speed up the process but if the horse gets rid of the dummy or it is taken off before the process is complete, I believe you'd end up with a horse that is severely phobic, which seems to be what the OP has now.

One way to hasten the process was to use drugs. Another was sleep deprivation. Again, once the process is started, I believe you'd have to go on to completion or end up with a worse case than you started with.

I sincerely believe the only way with a case like this (OP's horse) is to take small incremental steps extended over a long time. For that reason, I'd be against using a professional as time is money and they'd want a quick(er) fix. By all means get a professional in (even several!) to evaluate the problem and advise, but the job would be better done by the OP (or someone like her) where the meter isn't running.

My own thoughts would be to some how contrive a situation where the route to what the horse wants (food, water, grazing, stabling, grooming, or whatever motivates) is supplied when it co-operates in the smallest degree. I haven't tried clicker training (I use my voice) but I think that might indeed be the way to go. Take it slowly, be gentle, and be satisfied with small steps. At least that would be better than writing the horse off and the knowledge gained would be invaluable. The OP wants to learn and is apparently prepared to put in the time….so!

Just a word on sleep deprivation, which sounds harsh but I don't believe is. It was called "waking" and it means keeping the bird continually awake, so definitely no five minute kips! Again, this is something (in falconry) I have never tried because it involves gently keeping the bird awake by continual movement for up to 72 hours. After that, the bird seems to lose the ability to recognise reality and enters a dream-like state. (Who wouldn't? ) Technically, I think the aim is to deprive it of REM sleep. But I don't know. The possibilities of my being able to stay awake more than 24 hours are non-existent and I don't have a retinue of helpers. But it used to work and was the more common method of training. An old falconry book I have here mentions that "everyone knows that waked stags can be driven down the high street like cattle". Well, maybe they did. It was clearly common knowledge. But I doubt many know about it today, and probably for good reason.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

what about driving pony?

 

[TarrSteps]

Just a word on sleep deprivation, which sounds harsh but I don't believe is. It was called "waking" and it means keeping the bird continually awake, so definitely no five minute kips! Again, this is something (in falconry) I have never tried because it involves gently keeping the bird awake by continual movement for up to 72 hours. After that, the bird seems to lose the ability to recognise reality and enters a dream-like state. (Who wouldn't? ) Technically, I think the aim is to deprive it of REM sleep. But I don't know. The possibilities of my being able to stay awake more than 24 hours are non-existent and I don't have a retinue of helpers. But it used to work and was the more common method of training. An old falconry book I have here mentions that "everyone knows that waked stags can be driven down the high street like cattle". Well, maybe they did. It was clearly common knowledge. But I doubt many know about it today, and probably for good reason.

That was a fairly common "horse whisperer" trick, to have people take it in turns to keep a horse awake. It was also common for ranch horses to be broken at the end of a roundup, where they may have been pushed by a rota of cowboys for a considerable length of time. Hard to say if that wasn't at least as much about physical tiredness though, as proper sleep deprivation. I'd say there is even some suspicion that modern trainers have used it on competition horses. The biggest problem - other than the obvious one that it's brainwashing and the sort of thing they have laws about now - is that horses need much less sleep than way do, particularly REM sleep and can get sufficient sleep in very small chunks. The usual reason it comes up in conversation now is relative to stressed or sore horses that aren't getting the sleep they need and how that affects them physiologically.

Re flooding and dummies, the biggest problem is the possibility of it going wrong is very high as it's extremely difficult to contain and control a panicking horse. So the horse that gets away or runs itself to injury, for instance, is actually more likely to be harmed by the experience than helped. I've seen it done successfully (and more than once unintentionally) but I'm not sure I'd have the guts to do it (intentionally) with something like a dummy.

I agree that incremental training can't have a time limit and that can be tricky when you're paying for it. The flip side is it's interesting how much more low stress progress can be made with many short sessions - it's often not so much over all amount of time that is important as number of small steps. So the ability to work with a horse for, say, 20 minutes multiple times a day, can yield better results than doing a longer session less often. Or being able to do an hour when it's needed vs when you have the time available, can make a difference. It depends on the horse and the problem.

That was kind of my original point. It's impossible in a situation like this to say "this is the right answer". Partly because we can't see the horse, but mostly because the "right" next step will be dependent on the one that came before and you won't necessarily know what that is until you get there.

 

[millies]

some more interesting point. I really coulnt aford to send him away, even if i wanted to, as finances just wouldnt stretch to pay for the amount of time he would need. I have all the time he needs but i cant see him riding any time in the near future whether i do the work myself or send him away. I think im going to pass using sleep deprivation! i currently do two or three twenty minute sessions each day with him which seems to be working. flooding has had its uses but iv found using a more aproach and retreat type of aproach is working better. he deffinatley learns more if i build things up so so so slowly he doesnt notice the change as once he gets stressed hes hard to calm down. I dont think anyones being mean, i wouldnt say im inexperienced but im certainley no professional, which is pehaps what this pony needs. And a little tough love from HHOers was what i nrded to swallow my pride and realise that.

 

[TarrSteps]

Which is going to make you a really good horse trainer in the long run.

Best of luck with the pony. Let us know how you get on (literally ).