Update on Larsen Trap

I dont think it does . You should respect someone decision based on their own experiences but you don't have to agree with it!
Wouldn't the world be boring if we were whitewashed in thinking and believing the same.
 
FionaM12 said:
Am I reading it wrongly, or is this sarcastic and rather unpleasant end comment? I can't see what it's got to do with the subject if so. Just a personal snipe. :(

(Edited to point out that the above quote hides the fact that only the last two words were put in italics by Alec. Rather changes the emphasis.)
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No flies on you, are there? Sharp as a marble. ;)

RutlandH2O said:
Fransurrey said:
....... Within 24 hours, 4 magpies were trapped. I rang the farmer and he came and fetched them.
......... That being said, I won't have one on the property again.
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So you're in agreement with the practice, in principal, just as long as it's not on your property, right? Right. Not in my back yard, or hypocrisy, you explain which, it'll be one or the other.

applecart14 said:
Alec IMHO you are an idiot. .......
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It would seem that I'm in good company. ;) To date I've been courteous, even if I have succumbed to temptation. At no point have I been offensive. Would you prefer that we alter that arrangement?

Alec.
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lannerch said:
I dont think it does . You should respect someone decision based on their own experiences but you don't have to agree with it!
Wouldn't the world be boring if we were whitewashed in thinking and believing the same.
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Wouldn't the forum be boring if it were whitewashed into us all replying the same and never disputing each others logic or decisions?
 
Honey08 said:
RutlandH2O said:
Just for future information, swallows can fly through very small gaps... Ours nest in the stables, and poop everywhere. Last year I kept top doors shut to try and persuade them to nest in the field shelter (also on the yard), but they flew through the vents at the side of the stables! Magpies certainly couldn't, and even the babies flew through them when it was time to fly..
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Eighteen years of watching, cataloguing, worrying about them, thrilling to their arrivals, I know just how small an opening they can navigate. All our stable doors remain open year round, but our horses are not stabled. They are winter-housed in a vast pole barn. Several of our barns and carport have no doors at all. The magpies have access to virtually every nest site. I would never close the top doors, anyway, because many of the swallows come back to the same nest year after year. They can poop wherever they want. If I don't like it, I don't park the cars in the carport until they leave. Likewise, if they poop all over the hay or straw bales, I have sheeting specifically set aside to protect them. We have an old, brick dairy, a part of which we use for our personal storage. There's a small hole in the brick at the apex of the wall. The swallows have been using this building for 4 years now. There is no other way for them to enter or exit because the door is rarely open. I've watched the newly fledged babies manoeuvre in and out of this tiny hole without incident. I'm actually quite relieved when I see nest building in this barn, because I know the magpies cannot access these nests. Again, everything is covered with sheets while the birds are here. I was heartbroken, several years ago, when a new neighbour completely netted the ceiling of his carport (which is actually part of his stables) to prevent swallows nesting. The building is very old and had been part of a working farm. Swallows had been there for many decades. These little creatures travel such vast distances. I try to give as much help as I can, including making mud puddles for them during drought conditions so they can build their nests.
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I had never heard of Larsen traps until over ten years ago. My very young daughter (eight) was out hacking with a friend, and found a magpie "trapped in a cage, Mummy" She assumed it had got in by accident, and released it. She even told the farmer about her 'good deed'. He then explained how it had taken some considerable effort to catch the bird, and what the purpose of the magpie was. He also said if you have magpies on your farm, you will have no songbirds, as the magpies are so vicious. Daughter was very apologetic, and offered to help catch another one ;) Two days later I saw what I thought was a bird flapping in the middle of the road having been hit. I got out of the car to find a magpie doing it's level best to destroy a small pretty finch. It took some determined chasing to make it drop the finch, and after that I had no problems with culling/trapping magpies. I know I see a damn sight more magpies than songbirds, and I know which birds I prefer. The trap that was on 'our' farm was checked daily, by the man who did the pigeon shooting, and any trapped birds dispatched quickly. The resident magpie had food and water. It was in the farmer's interest to look after it, as it was not exactly easy to replace.
 
Alec Swan said:
No flies on you, are there? Sharp as a marble. ;)

RutlandH2O said:
So you're in agreement with the practice, in principal, just as long as it's not on your property, right? Right. Not in my back yard, or hypocrisy, you explain which, it'll be one or the other.



It would seem that I'm in good company. ;) To date I've been courteous, even if I have succumbed to temptation. At no point have I been offensive. Would you prefer that we alter that arrangement?

Alec.
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You're itching for a fight, aren't you, Alec? Actually, the fact that the birds were trapped within 24 hours was a relief: it meant fewer swallows chicks would be killed, and the magpies would spend less time in the trap. What bothered me was the fact that the farmer had no intention of providing food, water or shelter. He also said he wouldn't be available to come back to retrieve the birds the next day (I got his son to fetch them). That's what bothered me the most. I am not a NIMBY. I was disturbed by the circumstances. In my world, if it has to be done, it MUST be done humanely or not at all. I've had no reason to contemplate having another Larsen trap here since then. If I find the kind of predation this year that we had 4 years ago, I might have to rethink my stand. So far, I haven't seen a swallow yet this year. This is the latest, in my record-keeping, for there not to be swallows on our farm.
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dunkley said:
I had never heard of Larsen traps until over ten years ago. My very young daughter (eight) was out hacking with a friend, and found a magpie "trapped in a cage, Mummy" She assumed it had got in by accident, and released it. She even told the farmer about her 'good deed'. He then explained how it had taken some considerable effort to catch the bird, and what the purpose of the magpie was. He also said if you have magpies on your farm, you will have no songbirds, as the magpies are so vicious. Daughter was very apologetic, and offered to help catch another one ;) Two days later I saw what I thought was a bird flapping in the middle of the road having been hit. I got out of the car to find a magpie doing it's level best to destroy a small pretty finch. It took some determined chasing to make it drop the finch, and after that I had no problems with culling/trapping magpies. I know I see a damn sight more magpies than songbirds, and I know which birds I prefer. The trap that was on 'our' farm was checked daily, by the man who did the pigeon shooting, and any trapped birds dispatched quickly. The resident magpie had food and water. It was in the farmer's interest to look after it, as it was not exactly easy to replace.
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Dunkley, well said. The circumstances regarding your farmer and his attitude toward the traps and birds was a vast improvement over my experience with my farmer.
 
RutlandH2O said:
Fransurrey said:
"She was attracting them with food, for God's sake!"

Our farm has always had vast numbers of swallows in summer. I've kept an annual log of the dates of their arrivals, numbers of nests, broods, repeat broods, and dates of departures. About 4 years ago, I found dozens of nests completely destroyed. Someone suggested it was the work of rats, but the positions of several of these nests precluded them as the culprits. Then, one day, I walked into one of our barns and was greeted by an enormous magpie, which was in the process of decimating one of the nests. That year, we had almost total predation of swallow chicks. I mentioned it to a local farmer who came by, the following evening, with a Larsen trap. There was a magpie in the central section, without food and water. He explained that the magpie he brought was from a different territory and that it's that "intruder" which causes the magpies in the new territory to enter the trap, not for food, but to attack the intruder. I wasn't comfortable with the trap, but I was desperate to see the few remaining swallow chicks survive to fledge and follow the migration in the autumn. I insisted on putting food and water in the trap and a board over the top for shelter. Within 24 hours, 4 magpies were trapped. I rang the farmer and he came and fetched them.
The idea that the decoy magpie could be replaced by newly caught ones completely negates the whole point of the exercise. The decoy intruder must be from a different territory for the trap to work. That being said, I won't have one on the property again.
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Can I just point out to everyone that this is not my quote? Rutland, please can you take care to quote properly, as many people below are responding to this as though I've said it and I haven't. Thanks.

Just to clarify more, my issue with the trap in my post was that many birds were trapped in succession, each being placed into the adjoining (closed) chamber. When I spoke to the lady who had set the trap, they had already been there for well over 24 hours and the trap must have been checked to move the birds into the next chamber. This is what I have issue with. From reading posts here, this is an illegal use of such a trap. Can't remember who said they checked regularly and dispatched the decoy bird and replaced with the newly caught one, but that doesn't irk me half as much. Still think plain and simple shooting is kinder, though.
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RutlandH2O said:
He also said he wouldn't be available to come back to retrieve the birds the next day (I got his son to fetch them). That's what bothered me the most. I am not a NIMBY. I was disturbed by the circumstances. In my world, if it has to be done, it MUST be done humanely or not at all.
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Sounds like we've had similar experiences. Therein lies the problem, perhaps. Not their use, but the treatment of the birds once caught.
 
OP well done for standing your ground. I'm sure that the corvid population does need to be controlled (as does the human one), but in an educated society which can send man (or woman) to the moon, it's really time that a more humane answer was found.
 
Well done OP in standing up in what you believe in.

When, in nature, has any predator decimated its food source?? It doesn't happen.
What has happened is we have reduced our hedgerows, hard landscaped our gardens and poisoned through chemicals and pesticides our wildlife. Now we blame it on the magpies ? Im not saying that magpies don't raid nests but they are also an opportunist bird and rely mainly on carrion. We (and domestic cats) are the only ones to blame for the reduction in songbirds, mistle thrushes, sparrows to name a few.
We have magpies but also have a healthy population of goldfinches, blackbirds, chaffinches, blue tits, long tailed tits, collared doves etc etc. Im sorry but I can't abide cruelty to any animal and thats what a larsen trap is.

Also not had our swallows yet but a Jenny Wren has taken up one of their nests:)
 
The One Show tonight showed a 'sting' involving a gamekeeper trapping pigeons in a Larsen to attract birds of prey.

He got 100 hours of community service and £10K in costs.
 
brighteyes said:
IMO, the 'magpie/songbird' imbalance has been created by man, and the Larsen trap is a very clumsy and largely inhumane effort at redressing the balance. We want it all...
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This.

Fransurrey said:
Still think plain and simple shooting is kinder, though.
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I've got to agree with this - presumably Larsen traps are used over shooting because they require very little input from the human..?

I quite like magpies :o a bird has got to eat, and why is everyone so appalled at them eating song birds when they are just doing what nature has evolved them to be doing :confused: Cats kill, play with food, etc but nobody (well, hardly anybody ;)) is suggesting we trap and kill them.

Thinking about the Larsen trap in terms of horses, it would be like catching a completely feral horse, putting it in a 12x12 stable and putting it in another horse's territory during breeding season. The local stallion comes across it and tries to attack it through bars. There is literally nowhere to hide, and now both stallions are trapped in a very small area. Is anyone really saying that there is not a welfare issue because its okay, that horse would have food and water?

I'm not saying its straight forward, I can see the need to control species which have got out of control, but is the larsen trap really the best way?
 
Haven't read the original posting, but I get the jist, some headick cruelly tortures an animal, someone else relieves animals suffering, and on a forum full of animal lovers, it's debated whether it's legal ethical blah blah or not and, whether a licence is required, kin amazing.
 
RutlandH2O said:
Alec Swan said:
You're itching for a fight, aren't you, Alec? .......

....... In my world, if it has to be done, it MUST be done humanely or not at all. .......
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Para 1, Not at all, fights are for fools, I'm only hoping that others will see that I am as passionate as I am about wildlife, all of it, and that includes Magpies!!

Para 2, finally, common ground, perhaps!!

..................................

I didn't watch the One Show, for a very good reason. None of them could give a flying ***k for wildlife, the law, or us. That, I'm sorry to tell you is the truth.

The One Show, like every other TV programme has nothing to do with reality, or truth. It has everything to do with ratings, and B*** S***!! Not what you want to hear, perhaps, but the truth, none-the-less.

Alec.
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