update on seady toe horse,now really confused!!

jackessex

jackessex

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hi all vets been today and doesnt think its seady toe after all :)
but the shortness of stride im experiencing he thinks is down to the horse being footy,even tho i explained that he is ridden in hoof boots and is still the same.although i have to admit i have trouble finding boots to fit very well as he has odd shaped feet :(. Vet has recomended i have him shod to see if the stride lengthens in shoes.but this brings me back round to why i had shoes taken off in the first place,he was tripping and short stride in shoes before,although he thinks since shoes have been off for 9 months now that the hoof has improved somewhat.
He mainly thinks the reason he is footy is because the horse is on wet pasture and his soles are to soft to cope with the stones,im frustrated as i had planned to put down a large hardstanding so that next winter we would not have this problem and so could leave him barefoot and out 24/7 as this helps his spavins.so my thinking is maybe to put shoes back on untill spring when it drys and i can have another attempt at barefoot,but the idea of banging shoes on his lovely feet makes me feel sick!!!!please some advice would be appreciated :) again!!:)
 
Have you tried soleguard, its put over the sole and frog by the farrier to give some support and protection, i used it on my tb when she had bruised soles and some issues after a concussion injury found it really good, it may help keep the shoes off, but provide some sole protection
 
marydoll said:
Have you tried soleguard, its put over the sole and frog by the farrier to give some support and protection, i used it on my tb when she had bruised soles and some issues after a concussion injury found it really good, it may help keep the shoes off, but provide some sole protection
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hi ive looked at this but not keen to as he used to have pads on before when he was shod and not having air to foot made major probs with thrush,but thanks for the idea :)
 
jackessex said:
hi all vets been today and doesnt think its seady toe after all :)
but the shortness of stride im experiencing he thinks is down to the horse being footy,even tho i explained that he is ridden in hoof boots and is still the same.although i have to admit i have trouble finding boots to fit very well as he has odd shaped feet :(. Vet has recomended i have him shod to see if the stride lengthens in shoes.but this brings me back round to why i had shoes taken off in the first place,he was tripping and short stride in shoes before,although he thinks since shoes have been off for 9 months now that the hoof has improved somewhat.
He mainly thinks the reason he is footy is because the horse is on wet pasture and his soles are to soft to cope with the stones,im frustrated as i had planned to put down a large hardstanding so that next winter we would not have this problem and so could leave him barefoot and out 24/7 as this helps his spavins.so my thinking is maybe to put shoes back on untill spring when it drys and i can have another attempt at barefoot,but the idea of banging shoes on his lovely feet makes me feel sick!!!!please some advice would be appreciated :) again!!:)
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So, given your vet's theory...it begs the question as to why my horses live in a bog yet have perfectly thick soles.

Yes they are softer in winter to be more flexible with the soft ground - they get harder in summer to deal with the hard ground.....

But these seasonal changes have NOTHING to do with how THICK the soles are.

This is down to diet, stimulation and sympathetic trimming.

If you remember I posted a pic of my draft's hoof on one of your previous threads indicating the same 'dimple' and that I didn't feel it was seedy toe.

Putting shoes on may well cause your horse to be more comfortable and if that is what it takes and you are happy to do that - then that is fine.

However - you won't have any answers as to why your horse is sore.

If you are confident in your diet, I would carefully look at whether your hoof care provider is routinely taking tissue off the frog and sole.
 
amymay said:
Shoes would be a good way to go then with the vet using the x-rays as a guide.
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hi yes but allready done that been through over a yr of xrays massive wedges,pads etc and had 2nd opinions etc etc,the soundest he has been is when out of shoes so you can see why im reluctant to go back to them.
 
Agree with the abitodd.

Did your vet do x-rays with a portable machine?
I'd want a second opinion & I'd want x-rays done at a specialist equine unit if possible - they can see so much more with a better machine - portables are neither use nor ornament for small changes.
 
abitodd said:
Shoes might mask the problem,but probably won't help his feet.

Where are you? A different vet might have a different opinion.
Can we see pics?
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hi used two different vets in my area both merrily used my insurance up and now im still non the wiser!!!:(
 
forestfantasy said:
Agree with the abitodd.

Did your vet do x-rays with a portable machine?
I'd want a second opinion & I'd want x-rays done at a specialist equine unit if possible - they can see so much more with a better machine - portables are neither use nor ornament for small changes.
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hi no he went to both vets and stayed with them and had full xrays,nerve blocks etc etc,no insurance now so cant go back down that road :(
 
In my understanding shortened stride comes from soreness if the hoof is the cause. You can shoe to cover this up but that wont sort the reason why he is sore imo. Soreness comes from inflammation, thrush, underdeveloped internal structures in the hoof especially the back half (caudal) ie. frog, digital cushion and lateral cartilages. Most of this is helped by sorting diet and correct and comfortable stimulation of the structures. Exercize with pads and pea gravel area are helpful.
I suggest you work your way through these articles and don't panic, this will not be 'cured' in five minutes. http://hoofrehab.com/hoof articles by Pete Ramey.htm

Fully developed and calloused sole will not cause soreness when wet so if there is sole sensitivity the sole needs help to thicken and callous along with he frog and/or there is inflammation present.
First rule, no sole, ( probably bar) or frog trimming except for very loose flaps on frog.

If the cavity can be packed, after soaking try plugging with some cotton wool squidged in canestan or one of the red horse products. Sometimes plugging the cavity helps with comfort. Don't know why though and my observations on this have been on white line disease cavities at the quarters or off centre toe.

Your biggest help imo would be a good experienced trimmer to advise and support as well as provide a sympathetic trim. Easier said than done I know. :(
The rest of us can only suggest stuff with the proviso of not seeing the hooves in person and, as in my case, another owner not professional.
 
Having looked back at your previous posts and the photos from when the shoes first came off, his feet are so much better now it seems a shame to go back to shoes as all that they will probably do it to mask the underlying problem.
Would trying a different trimmer or farrier be an option as you say yours is not really onside is he taking to much frog off, it looks in one photo that they are rather well trimmed, or is he trimming the sole.
I do not see why living on wet ground should be the cause of this, mine are all on heavy clay/mud and have tough feet.
 
jackessex said:
farrier thinks his feet are **** and i should slap shoes back on bute him up untill hes no good for anything anymore then shoot him!!!:(
now trying to find another farrier!!!
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B***er!! Shoes and a bute alternative might not be a bad idea though sounds like you have done every thing else! You could also try one of the new NAF supplements for feet, might be worth a try. Def take his toes short and roll them stops the tripping, know this from experince, keeps my boy sound as well 2 weeks over 6 weeks and he goes a wee bit unlevel on the corners;);)
 
amandap said:
In my understanding shortened stride comes from soreness if the hoof is the cause. You can shoe to cover this up but that wont sort the reason why he is sore imo. Soreness comes from inflammation, thrush, underdeveloped internal structures in the hoof especially the back half (caudal) ie. frog, digital cushion and lateral cartilages. Most of this is helped by sorting diet and correct and comfortable stimulation of the structures. Exercize with pads and pea gravel area are helpful.
I suggest you work your way through these articles and don't panic, this will not be 'cured' in five minutes. http://hoofrehab.com/hoof articles by Pete Ramey.htm

Fully developed and calloused sole will not cause soreness when wet so if there is sole sensitivity the sole needs help to thicken and callous along with he frog and/or there is inflammation present.
First rule, no sole, ( probably bar) or frog trimming except for very loose flaps on frog.

If the cavity can be packed, after soaking try plugging with some cotton wool squidged in canestan or one of the red horse products. Sometimes plugging the cavity helps with comfort. Don't know why though and my observations on this have been on white line disease cavities at the quarters or off centre toe.

Your biggest help imo would be a good experienced trimmer to advise and support as well as provide a sympathetic trim. Easier said than done I know. :(
The rest of us can only suggest stuff with the proviso of not seeing the hooves in person and, as in my case, another owner not professional.
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thankyou,i plan on covering my dry area with pea gravel as ive read its good.but my prob is what to do in the meantime :(
im thinking maybe putting shoes on as a temp measure untill the ground is dry enough to get the work done on the hard standing area.its bloody frustrating as ive got 5 sets of boots none of which fit for any length of time other wise i would happily use them with pads.
 
Without spending more money on investigations, that you seem unable too as not covered by insurance anymore I'm not sure what else you should do. Sounds like your horse has something going on somewhere that has not yet been diagnosed and might never be. My old boy went as you describe yours and I never got a proper diagnoses, He too was diagnosed with seedy toe but still a little lame after completing the treatment for that. Luckily I got LOU for it from my insurance and acepted that I might not know exatly what it was. My horse manages to do a bit of hacking still as he is betetr on the hard ground than in school but thats about it.
 
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jackessex said:
thankyou,i plan on covering my dry area with pea gravel as ive read its good.but my prob is what to do in the meantime :(
im thinking maybe putting shoes on as a temp measure untill the ground is dry enough to get the work done on the hard standing area.its bloody frustrating as ive got 5 sets of boots none of which fit for any length of time other wise i would happily use them with pads.
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Is he uncomfortable just mooching about? If he is ok just use the boots for exerize/riding. What about inserting some of these pads? They might help with boot fit too. http://www.equinepodiatrysupplies.co.uk/Pads/

If you decide to shoe. Spend the time doing as much learning as you can in the meantime so you get a clear picture of how to rehab him in the future. I use the word rehab because you will come to realize that most domestic horses have under developed hoof structures. The hoof structures need developing through exercize just like our muscles. :)

ps. restricting grass and soaking hay might well help. Mineral status is something else tolook into in case there is a significant shortage of some minerals or imbalance. Giving him (plain)salt and magesium oxide in his feed is a start anyway.
 
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be positive said:
Having looked back at your previous posts and the photos from when the shoes first came off, his feet are so much better now it seems a shame to go back to shoes as all that they will probably do it to mask the underlying problem.
Would trying a different trimmer or farrier be an option as you say yours is not really onside is he taking to much frog off, it looks in one photo that they are rather well trimmed, or is he trimming the sole.
I do not see why living on wet ground should be the cause of this, mine are all on heavy clay/mud and have tough feet.
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thankyou,i agree his feet look much better.i also am on heavy clay/mud and in the two wks he has been living out i can almost see the feet getting more concaved and im obviously not having any stiffness probs which we where when he was stabled.he moves fine in the field its only on the stoney ground that its really a prob,part of me wonders if i should just turn him away untill weather/ground improves and look at him again then.
farrier has trimmed frog before now but to be fair horse has a history of thrush so i think he tends to like to keep them neat,he doesnt trim sole but does trim bars.farrier at last trim did say his feet where rock hard this is why im now confused.
 
Re trimming bars. I've recently re read Pete Ramey's article on bars and he now believes if you are continually having to trim them the horse is saying he needs them so leave them alone. He says they find their own level and don't just keep growing if left. Bars grow from the lateral cartilages and if they're longer more support is needed not less. :)

Suggest your farrier read the Pete Ramey stuff.
 
amandap said:
Is he uncomfortable just mooching about? If he is ok just use the boots for exerize/riding. What about inserting some of these pads? They might help with boot fit too. http://www.equinepodiatrysupplies.co.uk/Pads/

If you decide to shoe. Spend the time doing as much learning as you can in the meantime so you get a clear picture of how to rehab him in the future. I use the word rehab because you will come to realize that most domestic horses have under developed hoof structures. The hoof structures need developing through exercize just like our muscles. :)

ps. restricting grass and soaking hay might well help. Mineral status is something else tolook into in case there is a significant shortage of some minerals or imbalance. Giving him (plain)salt and magesium oxide in his feed is a start anyway.
Click to expand...

i seem to collect hoof boots!!!lol non of which really fit,or they fit for a bit then start twisting or rubbing,previously to the last two wks of 24/7 turnout i had been stabling and soaking hay and didnt make a blind bit of difference to be honest,he also is fed fast fibre with mag ox,biotin and brewers yeast and my grazing is mostly mud!!!lol,vet thinks its concusion thats causing probs?
 
amandap said:
Re trimming bars. I've recently re read Pete Ramey's article on bars and he now believes if you are continually having to trim them the horse is saying he needs them so leave them alone. He says they find their own level and don't just keep growing if left. Bars grow from the lateral cartilages and if they're longer more support is needed not less. :)

Suggest your farrier read the Pete Ramey stuff.
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it makes sense but what if the horse doesnt get enough time on abrasive(sp) surfaces surely then would need a helping hand?
 
jackessex said:
i seem to collect hoof boots!!!lol non of which really fit,or they fit for a bit then start twisting or rubbing,previously to the last two wks of 24/7 turnout i had been stabling and soaking hay and didnt make a blind bit of difference to be honest,he also is fed fast fibre with mag ox,biotin and brewers yeast and my grazing is mostly mud!!!lol,vet thinks its concusion thats causing probs?
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Thing is concussion wont be a problem if the hoof structures are good and strong and the hoof is functioning correctly ie, heel first landing..
 
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