Update on Ted (severe hindgut issues)

[stilltrying]

It’s been a while, so thought I’d post an update on Teddy.

To recap: Ted is the horse that was so poorly (with what we now know to be hindgut issues) that we were considering pts. He is a 6yo 17h 7/8ths TB. As a rising 4yo he suffered an injury to his DDFT and spent the following year on a barefoot rehab. As he got older, the hoof healed but his body condition worsened and he became more and more unhappy. Whilst not particularly lame, he looked incredibly tense, sad and in pain, and would cry out if you touched his sides, and when you tried to turn him left out of his stable he just couldn’t. Back x-ray, scoping and bonescan later (sorry NFU!) we were at our wits end.

Then Donna Blinman got involved. She diagnosed him with severe hindgut imbalance and after taking samples, he was put on Equishure. Within a matter of days he started to pick up. Test results showed severe imbalance in his hindgut and he was given a 12 week protocol, of which we are about 10 weeks into now, and he is no longer on Equishure. He has made very slow progress, but it is progress nonetheless, and he was brought back into work in June.

Where he has been so sore for so long, it is taking time for him to adjust, as he had started to develop quite uneven muscles in his quarters. He is still showing tension around his sacral joint (?) and is therefore struggling to step through, particularly with his right hind. We are keeping him going in light work, encouraging him to stretch, giving him lots of massages and have also started keeping a video diary.

Fascinating how it all becomes clear and makes sense: hoof injury highly likely to have been caused by the gut problems….treatment for hoof injury would have made gut worse…..investigating ‘behavioural problems’ would have made gut worse….

He is likely to have his protocol extended, but it does feel like we are facing in the right direction. : ) Here he is enjoying his first ever outing that doesn’t involve vets!! (bay on left)

http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww15/JerryNR/BeachJuly2014.jpg

 

[GermanyJo]

Hi
interesting .. can you say what tests were done ? not exactly like my boy at the moment , but some of what you described fits to some symptons we are seeing at the moment.

 

[Scarlett]

Very interesting - my lad has just been diagnosed with inflammatory bowel disease, ie he's got a dodgy hindgut. He's barefoot and was struggling with footiness along with crookedness/lameness similar to what you describe. He left the vets yesterday and he has a month of steroids and I'm waiting to speak to the vet re his feeding and any supplements she wants him to be fed. My vets think a lot of hind gut issues are going undiagnosed atm.

 

[stilltrying]

Hi
interesting .. can you say what tests were done ? not exactly like my boy at the moment , but some of what you described fits to some symptons we are seeing at the moment.

Yes sure - he was given a physical exam and reacted in an extreme manner (google ulcer pressure points on youtube) which pinpointed the area of discomfort. In terms of lab tests, poo analysis was sent off to germany funnily enough, along with saliva swab. It took about a month or so to get the results back and these showed what his gut was lacking. Not sure what good bacteria was missing, but whatever it was he had abnormally low amounts (lowest vet had seen).

 

[stilltrying]

Very interesting - my lad has just been diagnosed with inflammatory bowel disease, ie he's got a dodgy hindgut. He's barefoot and was struggling with footiness along with crookedness/lameness similar to what you describe. He left the vets yesterday and he has a month of steroids and I'm waiting to speak to the vet re his feeding and any supplements she wants him to be fed. My vets think a lot of hind gut issues are going undiagnosed atm.

From what i'm hearing this seems to be more common than we think, and whilst our local vet is open minded he was left scratching his head, which is why we turned to our present 'holistic' vet. Ted was taken barefoot because of the injury but i've since discovered dodgy gut can cause weak feet, so it all kind of fits together. Where his gut has been so sore on the right hand side, he has been holding himself tightly and bending that way, with any bend to the left causing extreme pain, hence why when we used to lead him out of his stable and turn, he would almost bulldoze into the tractor that was parked in front as he just could not turn. Poor chap must have really been suffering.

As you are barefoot, diet is probably ok anyway, but we've been advised high fibre, low sugar, constant access to forage and supplement rich grass for hay where poss.

 

[paddy555]

I can relate to much of what you say. Definitely the hoof imbalances caused by hind gut issues

Just curious to know why equishure was stopped. I started 2 on equishure last Nov and have not stopped. We are still getting improvements. I wondered why the vet protocol was to stop?

thanks

 

[stilltrying]

I can relate to much of what you say. Definitely the hoof imbalances caused by hind gut issues

Just curious to know why equishure was stopped. I started 2 on equishure last Nov and have not stopped. We are still getting improvements. I wondered why the vet protocol was to stop?

thanks

Really interesting at about the feet, and actually he has odd back feet too, so wondering if a lifetime of stepping slightly short has caused this.

Not actually asked this question of the vet, but I'm guessing it is because the vet is confident they can treat the gut with the protocol. I think the Equishure was given immediately (i.e. before any results were back) to ease some of his symptoms. The treatment from the vet is aimed at restoring gut health and reintroducing bacteria. my concern is that he will start to go backwards now he's been of the Equishure but its been a few weeks now. Will continue to update! : )

 

[paddy555]

Really interesting at about the feet, and actually he has odd back feet too, so wondering if a lifetime of stepping slightly short has caused this.

Not actually asked this question of the vet, but I'm guessing it is because the vet is confident they can treat the gut with the protocol. I think the Equishure was given immediately (i.e. before any results were back) to ease some of his symptoms. The treatment from the vet is aimed at restoring gut health and reintroducing bacteria. my concern is that he will start to go backwards now he's been of the Equishure but its been a few weeks now. Will continue to update! : )

If you think about it the unbalanced feet are blindingly obvious although it took me a long time to realise this.
Horse is sore in his body, moves badly and everything else follows. For mine it was shape, muscle, saddlefit and hind feet balance. I had a totally different horse once I adressed he problem.

I look forward to updates and hearing if the vet can restore gut health. Would be interested to know what medicine/ supplement/probiotic you are feeding to restore the gut. I don't think there can be many vets working along these lines, you are lucky to have found her.

 

[stilltrying]

If you think about it the unbalanced feet are blindingly obvious although it took me a long time to realise this.
Horse is sore in his body, moves badly and everything else follows. For mine it was shape, muscle, saddlefit and hind feet balance. I had a totally different horse once I adressed he problem.

I look forward to updates and hearing if the vet can restore gut health. Would be interested to know what medicine/ supplement/probiotic you are feeding to restore the gut. I don't think there can be many vets working along these lines, you are lucky to have found her.

Oh it all makes sense now, especially re: the feet. I'm hoping he too will look like a different horse after all this assuming he comes right. At the moment his front and back end do not match, and he has odd feet!

Yes we were very lucky to have found this vet. Our local vet had gone down the usual route of scoping, prescribing GG, re-scoping, and as nothing could be seen on second scope, assumed all was fine when clearly it was not. Ive said it before though, but it must be difficult for vets to address issues that are essentially behavioural.

If you pm me with your email address I'd be happy to send you more info on his treatment plan. : )

 

[yellowrattle]

This is all very interesting, I have a mare who has this too, slightly different symptoms. But with similar foot issues and not quite right behind etc
Did you boy eat the Equishure ok? I too would be interested in how you get on and the treatment plan, as we've been getting nowhere for the last 2 years, so you're giving us all hope

 

[stilltrying]

This is all very interesting, I have a mare who has this too, slightly different symptoms. But with similar foot issues and not quite right behind etc
Did you boy eat the Equishure ok? I too would be interested in how you get on and the treatment plan, as we've been getting nowhere for the last 2 years, so you're giving us all hope

Hi - sorry to hear you are having similar issues. So far he has been eating his feed, albeit not exactly enthusiastically! He is has been on 3 feeds a day as part of this treatment programme, so i think just gets a bit bored with it. He occasionally leaves it if left to his own devices so have resorted sometimes to holding the bucket for him / sprinkling a few pony nuts on it. I am not sure where you are based, but would recommend getting in touch with our vet. She travels around and does clinics in various locations. If you google Donna Blinman you will find the website.

I will continue to update with Ted's progress

 

[yellowrattle]

Based up in the North East. Mine has stopped eating any hard feed so struggling to encourage her to try, but been down the holding the bucket and throwing something nice in to keep them interested
Thanks for the info, will have a look and see if she comes this far north

 

[stilltrying]

Ahh we are south east! But i think she is based nr Newmarket way, so you never know, might travel up for clinics. We have to traipse round the M25 for ours. Tricky feeding isn't it as part of Teds programme is high fibre low sugar, which kind of rules out the nice stuff!

 

[yellowrattle]

Ahh we are south east! But i think she is based nr Newmarket way, so you never know, might travel up for clinics. We have to traipse round the M25 for ours. Tricky feeding isn't it as part of Teds programme is high fibre low sugar, which kind of rules out the nice stuff!

Tell me about it, I found this year the sugar is high in the grass so poorly pony You turn into a label reader to find the hidden sugar & starch but with high fibre

 

[paddy555]

This is all very interesting, I have a mare who has this too, slightly different symptoms. But with similar foot issues and not quite right behind etc
Did you boy eat the Equishure ok? I too would be interested in how you get on and the treatment plan, as we've been getting nowhere for the last 2 years, so you're giving us all hope

don't know if you have read this article but it may give you some ideas.

http://www.drkerryridgway.com/articles/article-ulcers.php

I feed equishure to 3 and have no problems getting them to eat it. It is so expensive that I keep it seperate from feed and mix it with a small quantity of soaked alfalfa pellets and hold the bucket (hand feeding if necessary)

I had 2 on equishure and wondered about a 3rd horse, a pasture pet who It thought had problems for other reasons. There was improvement. I decided to stop as it was expensive and I hoped it wasn't working. Unfortunately it was and he is now back on it with further improvement. I have not yet found the knack of stopping equishure and finding something to replace it with if indeed that is possible.
Of mine 1 had serious hind hoof imbalance problems due to hind gut and way it made him move. The other 2 didn't and their feet (barefoot) are pretty naturally evenly balanced. One of those however had astronomical behaviour and problems being touched. There appear to be several potential symptoms.

still trying, just about to PM you, thanks

 

[yellowrattle]

Thanks for the link, yep read almost everything out there about it
It's been hard trying to convince professionals there is something going on and it's not just spring grass pooh.
Mine's barefoot too has been since I've owned her, and had been great up until a yard move a couple of years ago, that's when things started to change, with her foot balance but also hind-limb movement etc, but this year it's been worse.
Unfortunately she's off any form of hard feed, not interested at all have stood for hours attempting to feed her.
It's good to hear it works, now to get it into her Although they have said it can be syringed if needs be

 

[paddy555]

It's been hard trying to convince professionals there is something going on and it's not just spring grass pooh.
Mine's barefoot too has been since I've owned her, and had been great up until a yard move a couple of years ago, that's when things started to change, with her foot balance but also hind-limb movement etc, but this year it's been worse.
Unfortunately she's off any form of hard feed, not interested at all have stood for hours attempting to feed her.
It's good to hear it works, now to get it into her Although they have said it can be syringed if needs be

it is only a small quantity of equishure so I don't see why it couldn't be syringed. Interesting about the change of yard. My horse's problems escalated when I got him. I suspect that my grazing may well be contributing towards hind gut acidity (or causing some such problem)

YR, I presume if you are BF you are on phoenix. If not there is a lot on this on the phoenix site as we have ploughed our way through hind gut problems many times over.

 

[melle]

Really interesting - we have just been given our (24 week!) protocol from Donna. My horse had navicular pain 3 year ago - barefoot rehabbed and has bee sound since. However I struggled every year to keep her comfy on the grass. Had to completely change her diet but still couldn't quite solve the problem entirely. Also couldn't quite eliminte flare in her front feet. Symtoms in hindsight were many - sometimes not quite right behind, could be horrendously grumpy although with diet changes this did improve. Very sensitive to rugs, very sensitive feet, cribs chronically and always has done since a yearling. I called the vet intially because she was lame behind after a competition. Then got a second opinion from Donna who diagnosed hind gut disbiosis? Lots of the wrong bacteria as well as fungal infection. Really interested to hear Teddy's progress!

 

[stilltrying]

Really interesting - we have just been given our (24 week!) protocol from Donna. My horse had navicular pain 3 year ago - barefoot rehabbed and has bee sound since. However I struggled every year to keep her comfy on the grass. Had to completely change her diet but still couldn't quite solve the problem entirely. Also couldn't quite eliminte flare in her front feet. Symtoms in hindsight were many - sometimes not quite right behind, could be horrendously grumpy although with diet changes this did improve. Very sensitive to rugs, very sensitive feet, cribs chronically and always has done since a yearling. I called the vet intially because she was lame behind after a competition. Then got a second opinion from Donna who diagnosed hind gut disbiosis? Lots of the wrong bacteria as well as fungal infection. Really interested to hear Teddy's progress!

Hi melle - sounds very similar! Can't remember if i put in the thread or not but when he was diagnosed with the damage to DDFT the mri also showed navicular changes (he was only 3.5 yrs old), hence the barefoot rehab. He was also awful to rug. Ted is very sensitive with his feed and when we move fields at our yard he is better on some than others, so there is a lot of penning off and feeding hay at the moment. Do keep us posted with your progress on the protocol from Donna. : )

 

[melle]

I felt like I was going mad til I met Donna! She listed all the symptoms I had been telling other vets about for years and linked them to this hind gut issue. Other vets had suggested I shoe her, work her on bute or to feed competition mix to put weight on! However all the changes made to her regime when her shoes came off plus a lot of tweaking along the way eased her symptoms. Donna said the underlying imbalance of bacteria could not be resolved my management alone.

 

[Laroxes]

Hello, my horse has recently been diagnosed with hind gut acidosis by Donna.

With so little information available, I wondered how your horses were getting on?

 

[Scarlett]

mine is very well - we moved yards to allow us to manage him differently and he has piled on weight even though he's only getting a small feed every day - is moving well under saddle, can use himself much better, has stopped box walking and chewing walls, his feet are great and we've had no lgl or abcessing since starting the equishure. I tried cutting it back a bit but he got grumpy so have upped it again and have resigned myself to the fact he will be staying on it. to be honest the cost is nothing when I see how well he is doing - we had always said that there was something holding him back, now I see glimpses of the horse he can be, it's exciting.