Update on two TB geldings needing a home

_GG_

_GG_

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Hi everyone, just a quick update on Brian and Buster, the two lovely TB geldings that were in need of a new home.

We were all set up to take the boys to their new home with the PHAASE sanctuary this afternoon, but after 4 hours, 3 lots of sedative for Brian, the vet, plenty of hands, patience and trying, Brian would not load. We got to the point where he was extremely dangerous to all of us, but worse, to himself. He sustained a couple of nasty cuts, damaged the lorry ramp, almost crushed two of us and badly hurt his owners hand, so we had to call it a day.

Buster was as good as gold, despite us all expecting him to be the troublesome one. Unfortunately though, there is no way we will get Brian off the yard. He had a whole tube of sedalin which didn't even touch him, he then had two intravenous shots from the vet who was good enough to stay and help, almost getting stamped on the head trying to bandage a cut but to no avail.

The owner and to be honest, none of us want to put Brian through that again, so the owner has made the very difficult decision to have the boys put to sleep this week. Finances are beyond too tight for him, he is extremely distressed and I believe that he is making the right decision for the boys and for himself and his sick wife.

I just wanted to let those that were concerned for him and the boys know. The ladies at PHAASE have been amazingly supportive and if any of you would still like to make a donation to help them in what they do, let me know and I will link them in this thread.

Thank you all who gave any advice, help and support and despite having a heavy heart, I think the decision is the best one. We tried, but it wasn't to be.
 
swintondesire said:
aww what a shame. why cant buster go alone? at least you all did your best :)
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There is a slim possibility of this, but the owner doesn't want to stress him out anymore. If buster can't see Brian, he panics and is unhandleable, so it could potentially be a distressing situation again. We have offered to pay for it, but the owner would be happier saying goodnight to them both together.

Heartbreaking :-(
 
Oh dear - that all sounds dreadfully traumatic - and perhaps un-necessary. Sedaline needs a good hour to kick in (was it?) We have loaded many feral horse and ponies into transport over the years, treating them a bit like bullocks, in as much as you drive them into the transport - from a shed, using gates et al - don't use people to load them from the ground as such, but drive, rather than handle - and for us that has always been effective. Horse are herding animals, and quite like to be herded (within safe boundaries) Not saying that we would have used our methods to any success with these two though.
Maybe at the end of the day putting them to sleep was the only option - but shame they had to endure the stressful stuff first.
 
dressedkez said:
Oh dear - that all sounds dreadfully traumatic - and perhaps un-necessary. Sedaline needs a good hour to kick in (was it?) We have loaded many feral horse and ponies into transport over the years, treating them a bit like bullocks, in as much as you drive them into the transport - from a shed, using gates et al - don't use people to load them from the ground as such, but drive, rather than handle - and for us that has always been effective. Horse are herding animals, and quite like to be herded (within safe boundaries) Not saying that we would have used our methods to any success with these two though.
Maybe at the end of the day putting them to sleep was the only option - but shame they had to endure the stressful stuff first.
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Yeah, we had to try. Sedaline was given more than enough time, knocked Buster out totally and he had less than Brian. We tried the livestock loading technique and that was even worse unfortunately. The owner was insistent that we try everything today, he was even trying to load Brian after I had called the sanctuary to let them know we weren't going. Very sad, but Brian is fine now, settled in his stable. I gave him his hay a little while ago as had to wait for him to fully come out of sedation, but his legs are fine and he is in good spirits as if he doesn't even know what happened earlier.
 
redriverrock said:
It seems very sad that they cant be given a chance...is there no other way, how are feral ponies loaded and managed?
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We use a big cattle trailer - which is the same size as the large Ifor Willaims horse trailer - obviously without a partition - we back it up to a shed, and make sure that we have gates blocking all exits and drive the animals up. It works 99% of the time.
 
dressedkez said:
We use a big cattle trailer - which is the same size as the large Ifor Willaims horse trailer - obviously without a partition - we back it up to a shed, and make sure that we have gates blocking all exits and drive the animals up. It works 99% of the time.
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These boys are 16.2hh and 16.3hh, big and strong and they know their strength. Having seen what Brian did today, I have no doubt that he would break his back before he got in anything.

I love these horse and I am no softy, but it is their owners choice and I have to agree with him. He can't keep them and they can't leave...at least, Brian can't.

Even if someone was willing to cover all costs, bring the biggest wagon and manage to wrangle them on board, Malcolm only wants them to go to a place where their future is guaranteed and they will not be separated or ever sold.

That is nigh on impossible, I know because I have tried harder than pretty much anything I have ever done to make this happen.

When even large and rich charities are advising you PTS, it is because the are really no alternatives :-(

I would live to be proven wrong, but I don't think the owner would cope if another attempt failed.
 
It is very easy for us to sit on our computers thinking...I could of got them in...but you were there and tried your best which is all anybody can do. It just seems impossibly sad that when they both have the chance at a decent future there lack of handling is what is going to kill them...that I would find a little difficult to forgive, no matter how 'caring' the owner appears to be. Harsh? yes but it is the horses who are going to pay the ultimate price :(
 
If Brian would rather kill himself, then sadly he has answered the question for you and Malcolm.
I sort of think give him and Buster a week in a field to recover from the traumas of today, and then have them put down together - they will be happy, you and Malcolm will be sad - but it will be the end of the road for these two horses, who will won't know much, once they have had the letheal injection - and really will not care. It is very sad for you and the owner - but maybe a dignified end for two noble steeds, who never asked to be bought into this world - and whose lives could have been a lot different from the outset (had they fulfilled what ever careers they were originally bred for.......Brian could have been Desert Orchid, and Buster Synchronised........feck, now I have started another debate! Good on you GG for trying to find a solution, but I think that you are possibly realising what the proper outcome is for these two now? xx
 
The problem with sedation is that it just doesn't work when adrenaline is already in the system, so it doesn't make sense that a vet would administer a second type of sedative after loading him with a full tube of sedalin especially if he's become agitated since it was administered.

Wouldn't you do better to have the vet sedate intrevenously in a calm environment and then load? I can only imagine that if he's an ex racer (sorry if that's assumptuous, I realise not all TB's are racers) he's likely been on a lorry countless times before. Maybe a trailer would do him better and an intravenous sedative?
 
kellybee said:
The problem with sedation is that it just doesn't work when adrenaline is already in the system, so it doesn't make sense that a vet would administer a second type of sedative after loading him with a full tube of sedalin especially if he's become agitated since it was administered.

Wouldn't you do better to have the vet sedate intrevenously in a calm environment and then load? I can only imagine that if he's an ex racer (sorry if that's assumptuous, I realise not all TB's are racers) he's likely been on a lorry countless times before. Maybe a trailer would do him better and an intravenous sedative?
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^^^THIS^^^
Can I ask...did anyone do any groundwork with these horses prior to loading day in preparation?
 
Oh GG; I followed your earlier post before this.

Okay, You've tried your best in every way and unfortunately it is what it is.
You dont want to put them through any morw upset so maybe give them a few nice days in the field or even a couple of weeks and then re-evaluate how Malcom feels about pts. If that's decided that's the best way forward then as dressedkez has said in so many words they won't know any different.
A belly full of grass, a big kiss each and both/all of you knowing they will be safe from any harm.

Just what a shame after the efforts you went to.

Hugs.
 
I'm so sorry, having re-read my first reply it probably sounds cold. I didn't mean for it to sound that way at all, I just can't understand why, if the sedalin didn't work the vet gave another (two doses of) sedative.

I really hope the outcome for these two boys is a happy one, whether it be a short but peaceful end to their lives or a new home with time and patience. Having not read the first thread I'm not aware of the history, but I wish both you and them well, whatever the outcome xx
 
I am not only just realising the right outcome...I have always said that is a sensible option, in the original thread. However, saving them was worth the try.

Yes, they have had their dinner off the ramp every day for the last two weeks, well handled daily as they are currently in every night anyway.

It is easy to sit and judge, but people who don't know all of the facts have nothing else to do.

In answer to questions, nope, not ex racers, they were bred to race, never trained, Malcolm's wife bought them and Buster was backed and turned away. Malcolm's wife became ill but refused to sell them. Malcolm has dutifully cared for these boys to the best if his abilities for almost 8 years. He is a broken man with no money, a pile of debt and an ill wife to care for on top of the horses.

Sometimes in life you find yourself in situations that are not of your choosing and you just have to do your best. Malcolm has done his best, he loves these boys and that love is what is making him want for them to have a peaceful end to their lives.

The YO and I have always believed that the only way they leave the yard will be as dead horses, but we had to try for theirs and Malcolm's sake and it is what he wanted for his horses.

I grew up in South Wales, all my childhood around dealers yards that used far less than proper methods to do things and I have had 20 years of working with problem horses. I have never seen anything like I saw today. I would rather see a horse PTS humanely than kill itself or end up a welfare case as they will both outlive Malcolm.

I appreciate all comments, but I just wanted to update those that wanted updating. The decisions is Malcolm's and it is the best one for these horses given the situation and possible future uncertainty.
 
Before you got down the PTS route why not bring in a professional to load him?

Jason Webb is very good at loading scared horses ( worked for one of our polo ponies - she'd been bought over from Uruguay on a boat, had a terrible travelling experience and was becoming dangerous).

I'm sure one of those kind of horses pros would help for charity? Might be worth a punt.

But whatever you decide, I hope the boys have a lovely rest of their lives, its clear you really care for them.
 
Mariposa said:
Before you got down the PTS route why not bring in a professional to load him?

Jason Webb is very good at loading scared horses ( worked for one of our polo ponies - she'd been bought over from Uruguay on a boat, had a terrible travelling experience and was becoming dangerous).

I'm sure one of those kind of horses pros would help for charity? Might be worth a punt.

But whatever you decide, I hope the boys have a lovely rest of their lives, its clear you really care for them.
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Good idea, the boys are happy this evening, I will be speaking to Malcolm again tomorrow but I think his mind is made up.
 
kellybee said:
I'm so sorry, having re-read my first reply it probably sounds cold. I didn't mean for it to sound that way at all, I just can't understand why, if the sedalin didn't work the vet gave another (two doses of) sedative.

I really hope the outcome for these two boys is a happy one, whether it be a short but peaceful end to their lives or a new home with time and patience. Having not read the first thread I'm not aware of the history, but I wish both you and them well, whatever the outcome xx
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dressedkez said:
City Mare talks sense - does Malcolm know about the amount of debate these boys have had?
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Thanks guys and ignore any knee jerk responses from me, it's been a looooong day.

The vet left us oral Sedalin which didn't touch Brian. Different horses react differently to different drugs. The vet came to give intravenous sedative as it is pretty much instant acting and does not require ingestion as with oral.

It worked. He only gave a second injection to the maximum as Brian is so big and unbelievably strong. Without sedative, even when eating off the ramp, if we tried to load them, they would both just barge and bolt and trust me, there is no holding them when they do that. Myself and a very strong helper today got dragged, heels dug into the very good flooring. No sedative = not getting anywhere near loading. Sedative = getting one in and one on the ramp, then extremely dangerous.


Malcolm has seen the original thread and was very grateful for the advice and thoughts offered.

Thanks guys
 
City Mare said:
Oh GG; I followed your earlier post before this.

Okay, You've tried your best in every way and unfortunately it is what it is.
You dont want to put them through any morw upset so maybe give them a few nice days in the field or even a couple of weeks and then re-evaluate how Malcom feels about pts. If that's decided that's the best way forward then as dressedkez has said in so many words they won't know any different.
A belly full of grass, a big kiss each and both/all of you knowing they will be safe from any harm.

Just what a shame after the efforts you went to.

Hugs.
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Thank you. I personally would rather they can go to sleep peacefully and not know any different, so I am not happy...but in agreement with Malcolm's decision. Some stress and pain is worth it in the long run, but I would not want to see a repeat of today. I wouldn't wish it on any horse no matter where they were going.
 
_GG_ said:
I am not only just realising the right outcome...I have always said that is a sensible option, in the original thread. However, saving them was worth the try.

Yes, they have had their dinner off the ramp every day for the last two weeks, well handled daily as they are currently in every night anyway.

It is easy to sit and judge, but people who don't know all of the facts have nothing else to do.

In answer to questions, nope, not ex racers, they were bred to race, never trained, Malcolm's wife bought them and Buster was backed and turned away. Malcolm's wife became ill but refused to sell them. Malcolm has dutifully cared for these boys to the best if his abilities for almost 8 years. He is a broken man with no money, a pile of debt and an ill wife to care for on top of the horses.

Sometimes in life you find yourself in situations that are not of your choosing and you just have to do your best. Malcolm has done his best, he loves these boys and that love is what is making him want for them to have a peaceful end to their lives.

The YO and I have always believed that the only way they leave the yard will be as dead horses, but we had to try for theirs and Malcolm's sake and it is what he wanted for his horses.

I grew up in South Wales, all my childhood around dealers yards that used far less than proper methods to do things and I have had 20 years of working with problem horses. I have never seen anything like I saw today. I would rather see a horse PTS humanely than kill itself or end up a welfare case as they will both outlive Malcolm.

I appreciate all comments, but I just wanted to update those that wanted updating. The decisions is Malcolm's and it is the best one for these horses given the situation and possible future uncertainty.
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GG I think that we all know you are doing your best for these boys, and the trauma of today, has been horrific for you. We can all sit at our laptops and try and hand out advice, from the comfort of our own houses and not realise properly how awful today was for you - hopefully some of the posts will have helped instil in you, what your gut instincts really are - but dealing with the broken Malcom, is, I suspect much harder than dealing with the eventual fete of the geldings. I have no idea where you are based, but if in the SW - happy for you to PM me, if you think we might be able to help. XX
 
_GG_ said:
Thanks guys and ignore any knee jerk responses from me, it's been a looooong day.

The vet left us oral Sedalin which didn't touch Brian. Different horses react differently to different drugs. The vet came to give intravenous sedative as it is pretty much instant acting and does not require ingestion as with oral.

It worked. He only gave a second injection to the maximum as Brian is so big and unbelievably strong. Without sedative, even when eating off the ramp, if we tried to load them, they would both just barge and bolt and trust me, there is no holding them when they do that. Myself and a very strong helper today got dragged, heels dug into the very good flooring. No sedative = not getting anywhere near loading. Sedative = getting one in and one on the ramp, then extremely dangerous.


Malcolm has seen the original thread and was very grateful for the advice and thoughts offered.

Thanks guys
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I totally appreciate that different horses react differently, but once adrenaline kicks in, generally speaking sedatives won't help.

What I meant was, if he'd had the Sedalin and it didn't work (ie he was running on adrenaline) a second or third dose probably wouldn't have helped. Therefore, another attempt on a different day with just the intravenous, administered before he set eyes on the lorry and/or got himself upset might do the trick if you have the time/option to try again.

That being said, the above post says everything really. I wouldn't wish your day on anyone or any horse, so I really do sympathise. As I said before, I wish both you, Malcolm and the horses a happy ending, whatever choice he makes I'm sure it will be the right one x
 
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dressedkez said:
GG I think that we all know you are doing your best for these boys, and the trauma of today, has been horrific for you. We can all sit at our laptops and try and hand out advice, from the comfort of our own houses and not realise properly how awful today was for you - hopefully some of the posts will have helped instil in you, what your gut instincts really are - but dealing with the broken Malcom, is, I suspect much harder than dealing with the eventual fete of the geldings. I have no idea where you are based, but if in the SW - happy for you to PM me, if you think we might be able to help. XX
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Thank you. We are near Chippenham so if Malcolm changes his mind, I might send you a message.

It is maybe a selfish thing, but it is nice to hear others affirm that although sad, the decision is valid. Perhaps a small part of me hoping for a miracle as well.

Malcolm will still have his old boy Lucas to care for and he will at least be able to enjoy his horse, not just work like a dog and get no enjoyment from it. At his age and after his life, he deserves a better life than he has at the moment.

I can be quite hard and cold when things like this need dealing with...at least until I can be alone, but this has got to me, so god knows what Malcolm is going through.

Thank you again. Really appreciated and I am now off to bed. X
 
Im sorry if I sounded abit judgemental...I just feel the whole situation is so very, very sad. Reading your last few posts explaining what happened today did make me think that maybe things are just to bad and it sounds like you and everyone else involved were very lucky not to get seriously hurt. They must have been petrified...makes you wonder what on earth has happened in there previous lives to make them so scared even with such heavy sedation :(
 
redriverrock said:
Im sorry if I sounded abit judgemental...I just feel the whole situation is so very, very sad. Reading your last few posts explaining what happened today did make me think that maybe things are just to bad and it sounds like you and everyone else involved were very lucky not to get seriously hurt. They must have been petrified...makes you wonder what on earth has happened in there previous lives to make them so scared even with such heavy sedation :(
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Redriverrock - you do not get it....nothing has happened to these horse per se, other than they do not want to leave the comfort zone they have been in for many years.
 
Maybe this is brians way of telling you all something. I'm not sure how old these too are either as not seen previous post.

Would acp tablets a few hours earlier be worth a try??
 
kellybee said:
I totally appreciate that different horses react differently, but once adrenaline kicks in, generally speaking sedatives won't help.

What I meant was, if he'd had the Sedalin and it didn't work (ie he was running on adrenaline) a second or third dose probably wouldn't have helped. Therefore, another attempt on a different day with just the intravenous, administered before he set eyes on the lorry and/or got himself upset might do the trick if you have the time/option to try again.
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I get what you're saying and I understand. Intravenous did have a great effect and he's not scared of the lorry, there was no fear, no shaking, no running away. Just total aggression at either an attempt to lead him on or coax or push. I know a frightened horse, he wasn't frightened. He just wanted nothing to do with it...even with buster in there standing quietly. We have tried previously with nothing and although we didn't put as much effort in as today, he was the same then.

Hard to explain really. At one point he was trying to paw the ramp to death, then happily sniffing it, walking a foot on, then bang, straight up, striking out at anyone there...actually aiming at us. He would go back down and stand quiet as a mouse again. You don't spend 30 years with horses, working with professionals, studying and loading hundreds and hundreds of horses without learning a thing or two, but I saw something new today:-(
 
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