FfionWinnie
Well-Known Member
Tip some into a smaller container like a small round lidded tub from tesco and use a calpol syringe.
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Update to horse with no energy.
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Tip some into a smaller container like a small round lidded tub from tesco and use a calpol syringe.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
fascinating hearing everyone's method of dealing with equimins oil. We decant into a squeezy tomato sauce bottle. Off to find out what a calpol syringe is.
FfionWinnie
Well-Known Member
It's just a wider holed syringe you get with calpol (kids medicine). Dentinox also similar one. How do you measure it the way you do it?
BBP
Well-Known Member
Good ideas both, I guess from the tomato sauce bottle you could squeeze into a teaspoon. I was planning on the small tub and syringe method as I've heard it can be tricky. Whereas the nano-e is really watery and if you so much as touch the bottle it leaks out of the dispensing system.
unicornystar
Well-Known Member
The fat lumps in odd places sound like EMS....in which case it can be managed!! I have a 24 year old who was sold, ruined, bought back by me and 5 years on he is looking great with only a very small fat lump here and there if that......careful management and exercise is key x
paddy555
Well-Known Member
I tried it with a syringe but couldn't measure out small enough quantities and it was very thick to push out of the syringe even when kept in the house.
I put half a slice of bread on gram scales, squeeze on 4 grams of oil which is 4000iu and turn the bread over into a sandwich and horse stands on the doorstep begging for it!!
I found getting a method of dealing with it was the worst part of using it. Heinz squeezy tomato ketchup bottle is great as the neck is wide enough to pour it is and the spout small enough to let only small quantities out.
just wanted to add that anything involving a teaspoon (or anything else) could well waste some as it would be difficult to get it all off. It is a LOT thicker than Nano and at the price all this oil costs any wastage is very expensive.
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Mynstrel
Well-Known Member
An alternative source of vitamin E is Progressive Earth on Ebay, they do a vitamin E oil powder which is much less messy, easier to dispense at a consistent dose and works out cheaper than the Equimins or KER versions. It's the synthetic vitamin E but it worked on our horse with Equine Motor Neuron Disease and the vets at Leahurst were happy that it was good enough, and the sellers were really helpful when we had questions about it.
If you're getting weird symptoms then EMND is definitely another illness worth reading up on, as it's either becoming more common or more easily spotted, I don't know which. Every horse seems to show it differently but our boy had depression, not rightness that wasn't lameness, weight loss - particularly on the back end and just generally not being himself, along with unpredictable spookiness/nappiness which we think now happened on the days when he just didn't feel strong enough to do something. We were thinking down the EPSM/EMS lines as the symptoms are similar, but that's what it turned out to be.
If you're getting weird symptoms then EMND is definitely another illness worth reading up on, as it's either becoming more common or more easily spotted, I don't know which. Every horse seems to show it differently but our boy had depression, not rightness that wasn't lameness, weight loss - particularly on the back end and just generally not being himself, along with unpredictable spookiness/nappiness which we think now happened on the days when he just didn't feel strong enough to do something. We were thinking down the EPSM/EMS lines as the symptoms are similar, but that's what it turned out to be.
BethH
Well-Known Member
Hi Mynstrel - interesting post and I came across it when I was looking in to the vit E issue Paddy mentioned. Not sure if I have this right - but I did read that if the horse uses up it supplies of Vit E more quickly than is usual or if they are deficient, it can be a pre-cursor to EMND - do you think this is right, as when I read it, it did sound like my horse. If only my vet would call me with the blood test results that would be lovely, but also it is now to late for them to test for the vit E deficiency so it looks like I'll be paying yet another call out for further bloods to be taken - ho hum!
Kat did you get your results, I felt really sad when I read your post and thought maybe my horse isn't doing so badly after all, he seems to have perked up a bit after being clipped and the temperature dropping but I have found some lumps on his belly and stifle area and then read the fat lumps post, so maybe it's EMS - knowing my horse he's got the lot!!!! - I hope you've had some positive news, fingers crossed for you?
Kat did you get your results, I felt really sad when I read your post and thought maybe my horse isn't doing so badly after all, he seems to have perked up a bit after being clipped and the temperature dropping but I have found some lumps on his belly and stifle area and then read the fat lumps post, so maybe it's EMS - knowing my horse he's got the lot!!!! - I hope you've had some positive news, fingers crossed for you?
BBP
Well-Known Member
I haven't heard anything yet, they did say that the muscle biopsy results could take 2 weeks so I'm trying my hardest to be very patient! The vet said unless the bloods turned up something I could act on immediately she would wait up give me results until muscle biopsy was back. I had thought of EMND too, my horse has every single symptom of the Mynstrels, barring losing weight, but my vet has satisfied me that it is not going to be that, or certainly that he shows no neurological issues. Between that and the head CT I feel like it's something chronic but not too sinister. It's funny, I took him in and he sailed through everything the vet did with him, reflexes, soundness everything, I think they wonder why I'm there! He seems quite cheerful compared to before the biopsy but he is getting spoiled rotten so he should!
BethH
Well-Known Member
You made me laugh, my horse is the same and he has really perked up over the last day or so now I've paid for bloods. Vet said mine is clear for cushings, at this time of year his ACTH levels should soar so any thing under 47 good/normal and it came back at 36.9, so def not cushings, he doesn't think Vit E deficiency likely and has said he would like to see how my horse goes for the next couple of weeks and if he continues to have more energy and then we can decide if we want to do EMS/Insulin resistance test first and then to have a good think about the Vit E as it would involve a muscle biopsy which isn't so nice for him. Sigh - I sat on him today and he def has more energy but is so uptight/sharp it's unbelieveable. I am wondering if the protexein 14 day recover aid I've put him on is working and that maybe he has had a hind gut issue.............
paddy555
Well-Known Member
Mynstrel, I would be really interested to now how EMND was diagnosed ie what tests, how they advised to deal with it and what the overall conclusion has been. Also to know what quantities of vit E you are feeding daily. Also why they thought your horse was affected. ie is it genetic as PSSM may be or, apart from vit E deficiency, is there some management cause that could be avoided. Sorry just a subject I am interested in.
Yes Beth it was in the uni of Minnesota site half way down the page about vit E deficiency. I went cold when I read it.
I didn't blood test for Vit E deficiency. My vet never suggested it and I did not know at that stage there was a test. I started mine on vit E as it seemed one of the suggestions for PSSM which my vet suggested as a possibility. I got results from my use of it within days and by then it was pointless to test. I don't know if it is the same for all horses but within less than a week a lot of spookiness had gone after the vit E suggesting we had a deficiency.
Where does you muscle biopsy go to Kat to be diagnosed?
Yes Beth it was in the uni of Minnesota site half way down the page about vit E deficiency. I went cold when I read it.
I didn't blood test for Vit E deficiency. My vet never suggested it and I did not know at that stage there was a test. I started mine on vit E as it seemed one of the suggestions for PSSM which my vet suggested as a possibility. I got results from my use of it within days and by then it was pointless to test. I don't know if it is the same for all horses but within less than a week a lot of spookiness had gone after the vit E suggesting we had a deficiency.
Where does you muscle biopsy go to Kat to be diagnosed?
BBP
Well-Known Member
I'm not too sure, I've emailed the vet to find out, and to ask exactly what they stain for (as myofibrillar myopathy is a new subset of type 2 pssm that the Americans have identified). I'm such a busy body customer!
My horse hasn't changed much on vitamin e supplement, he is still very erratic and unpredictable and not liking his schooling. But I'm certainly interested to see if his serum levels have improved as it seems that deficiency can lead to EMND.
My horse hasn't changed much on vitamin e supplement, he is still very erratic and unpredictable and not liking his schooling. But I'm certainly interested to see if his serum levels have improved as it seems that deficiency can lead to EMND.
Mynstrel
Well-Known Member
Sorry - long reply!
Beth – not sure about using vit E more quickly but we think we had a lucky escape from the disease hitting about 2yrs before it actually did which related to how much vitamin E he was getting so it’s possible. He started with an odd walk during winter, almost stringhalt that came from nowhere. Physio couldn’t find any reason other than muscle tightness and treatment seemed to keep on top of it. That was the winter of 2010/11 after we’d had a couple of really bad summers and he grass and haylage quality had been poor and so would have been providing less vit E. A good summer 2011 and circumstances meant that year he got much more turnout on very good grass (so got much more vitamin E) and he bloomed from it, and other than the physio giving him a regular MOT everything was fine for a while. 2012 was another dodgy summer where the grass, turnout and haylage wasn’t as good as it could be and winter 2012/2013 is when everything started to go wrong again.
Paddy –how was it diagnosed? Some bloody good vets! Once it started again nothing was obviously wrong to begin with, just a not rightness, and hubby (whose horse he was) said he felt drunk in trot, as though there was a delay between his front and back legs moving, nothing you could see but he said he just felt wrong. Also, although his appetite was really good, his coat was dull and he wasn’t keeping weight on like you’d expect.
Our own vet came out, flexion tested and did lameness tests which were all clear, then blood tested him for EPSM which came back negative. She was then big enough to admit she didn’t know what else it could be and spoke to the vets at Leahurst who said take him down there for tests.
His vet there did every neurological test you can imagine, walking up and down slopes blindfolded, steps on corners, tail pull, spinning him round his front end to see how he crossed behind – everything. He had some interesting ways of crossing his legs behind and she spotted that as he got tired he paced in walk but other than that he did everything asked of him.
From all of that she decided he may be a slight shiverer, but said otherwise there were no neurological problems. She said he knew exactly where his feet were going, he just didn’t always have the strength to get them where they needed to be as quickly as he should, and that’s where she suspected EMND. Another test she did for was to look inside his eyes as apparently EMND affects the pigment in the back of the eye (it made the back of his eye go a pretty brown coloured pattern). She didn’t mention a blood test for vitamin deficiency and said she could have done a muscle biopsy, which she decided not to do as she was happy she’d seen enough signs to go to treatment.
When she was explaining about it she said that they see it in Australia in horses that don’t get turnout, but also that it seems to be a genetic thing and of horses in the same barn, one may get it while the rest are fine, so basically, luck of the draw. She reckoned that he had whatever mix of genes that made him vulnerable, and that the couple of years of not great haylage and grazing had tipped him over the edge. Our situation proved what she'd said about luck to some extent, as we had 3 horses, all with the same feed and turnout regime, 2 were absolutely fine but he got ill. The others are on a vitamin E supplement and get a glug of oil each day now though - just in case.
The treatment was 10,000iu Vitamin E per day (8,000iu from vitamin E oil and 2,000iu from Alfa-A oil which she advised to feed) and 300ml sunflower oil, along physio exercises to help build strength and co-ordination, and turnout as much as he could cope with, which during the summer when it was hot wasn’t a lot – an hour out in the sun and he was out on his feet. Our physio was a star and did everything she could to give him exercises he could do which would help without taking too much out of him, building the work up as his strength improved.
Towards the end of the summer when it turned cooler he seemed to turn a corner, his cheeky streak came back, he started to look right again and got so full of himself that it was decided hubby would be safer up top to exercise him than walking him in hand and getting kicked up the bum most days when he started waving a front leg about!
He came back slowly into light work and through the winter did really well - he got thrown out of the ring at an in-hand show for misbehaving and even managed to do an odd x-pole (on the lunge).
He went back to Leahurst in June 2014 and the physios and vets said he looked ready to do a 3-event as he looked so fit and well and full of it, but as we got into summer, for some reason the disease began to get a hold on him again and everything started to go backwards quickly, so the decision was made at the beginning of September.
Beth – not sure about using vit E more quickly but we think we had a lucky escape from the disease hitting about 2yrs before it actually did which related to how much vitamin E he was getting so it’s possible. He started with an odd walk during winter, almost stringhalt that came from nowhere. Physio couldn’t find any reason other than muscle tightness and treatment seemed to keep on top of it. That was the winter of 2010/11 after we’d had a couple of really bad summers and he grass and haylage quality had been poor and so would have been providing less vit E. A good summer 2011 and circumstances meant that year he got much more turnout on very good grass (so got much more vitamin E) and he bloomed from it, and other than the physio giving him a regular MOT everything was fine for a while. 2012 was another dodgy summer where the grass, turnout and haylage wasn’t as good as it could be and winter 2012/2013 is when everything started to go wrong again.
Paddy –how was it diagnosed? Some bloody good vets! Once it started again nothing was obviously wrong to begin with, just a not rightness, and hubby (whose horse he was) said he felt drunk in trot, as though there was a delay between his front and back legs moving, nothing you could see but he said he just felt wrong. Also, although his appetite was really good, his coat was dull and he wasn’t keeping weight on like you’d expect.
Our own vet came out, flexion tested and did lameness tests which were all clear, then blood tested him for EPSM which came back negative. She was then big enough to admit she didn’t know what else it could be and spoke to the vets at Leahurst who said take him down there for tests.
His vet there did every neurological test you can imagine, walking up and down slopes blindfolded, steps on corners, tail pull, spinning him round his front end to see how he crossed behind – everything. He had some interesting ways of crossing his legs behind and she spotted that as he got tired he paced in walk but other than that he did everything asked of him.
From all of that she decided he may be a slight shiverer, but said otherwise there were no neurological problems. She said he knew exactly where his feet were going, he just didn’t always have the strength to get them where they needed to be as quickly as he should, and that’s where she suspected EMND. Another test she did for was to look inside his eyes as apparently EMND affects the pigment in the back of the eye (it made the back of his eye go a pretty brown coloured pattern). She didn’t mention a blood test for vitamin deficiency and said she could have done a muscle biopsy, which she decided not to do as she was happy she’d seen enough signs to go to treatment.
When she was explaining about it she said that they see it in Australia in horses that don’t get turnout, but also that it seems to be a genetic thing and of horses in the same barn, one may get it while the rest are fine, so basically, luck of the draw. She reckoned that he had whatever mix of genes that made him vulnerable, and that the couple of years of not great haylage and grazing had tipped him over the edge. Our situation proved what she'd said about luck to some extent, as we had 3 horses, all with the same feed and turnout regime, 2 were absolutely fine but he got ill. The others are on a vitamin E supplement and get a glug of oil each day now though - just in case.
The treatment was 10,000iu Vitamin E per day (8,000iu from vitamin E oil and 2,000iu from Alfa-A oil which she advised to feed) and 300ml sunflower oil, along physio exercises to help build strength and co-ordination, and turnout as much as he could cope with, which during the summer when it was hot wasn’t a lot – an hour out in the sun and he was out on his feet. Our physio was a star and did everything she could to give him exercises he could do which would help without taking too much out of him, building the work up as his strength improved.
Towards the end of the summer when it turned cooler he seemed to turn a corner, his cheeky streak came back, he started to look right again and got so full of himself that it was decided hubby would be safer up top to exercise him than walking him in hand and getting kicked up the bum most days when he started waving a front leg about!
He came back slowly into light work and through the winter did really well - he got thrown out of the ring at an in-hand show for misbehaving and even managed to do an odd x-pole (on the lunge).
He went back to Leahurst in June 2014 and the physios and vets said he looked ready to do a 3-event as he looked so fit and well and full of it, but as we got into summer, for some reason the disease began to get a hold on him again and everything started to go backwards quickly, so the decision was made at the beginning of September.
BBP
Well-Known Member
Wow, thank you for sharing that Mynstrel. I think this thread has a lot of experience on it, hopefully it will help other people. I think they ruled it out with my horse as he seems to know exactly where his feet are and is quick to move them, finds rein back easy, plus keeps a good weight (very good!) and his coat is fabulous. The biopsy for EMND I think comes from the muscle at the tail head, which differs to the muscle used for PSSM/RER etc, I'm not sure why this is. I'm itching for my results, even though I know they will take another week, as I want to get started on helping him.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
thank you for sharing all that Mynstrel. I was very sorry to read your final paragraph.
There is just so much good information there. Would you be able to post the name of the vet at Leahurst who helped you? It would be useful to have the name of an expert in case it was needed.
There is just so much good information there. Would you be able to post the name of the vet at Leahurst who helped you? It would be useful to have the name of an expert in case it was needed.
BethH
Well-Known Member
Mynstrel, thank you for taking the time to post that, so so sad to hear you lost your horse, it is so difficult when they clearly need your help and you are powerless, despite the amazing efforts of everyone to sort it out. If it helps at all, all of this information has been read by lots of people on my yard and we have had some really good discussions about managing the pasture/turnout/diet etc. The info has also been passed on to another lady who has just bought her horse over from Cyprus and he is very poorly, alot of this info is clarifying some things for her too. I will keep my fingers crossed that we all manage to move our horses forward and that those doing well, carry on doing well.
Have been very humbled by the time and effort of the posters on here, it really has made a difference in my thought process. As they say, knowledge is power!!
Have been very humbled by the time and effort of the posters on here, it really has made a difference in my thought process. As they say, knowledge is power!!
Mynstrel
Well-Known Member
Paddy - the vet was Kathy McGowan & our physio is Jo Andrews, although there were others at Leahurst who assessed him when we went to try to gain a better understanding of the illness, so knowledge is increasing and what EMND is and what can be done.
Beth - glad to share the knowledge, much as I wish we didn't have it, if it helps others (hopefully to say, no, it's not that!) then it's worth writing. He and hubby got through a lot together and he's left a big hole, but he left a good legacy in the knowledge we and others have gained from knowing him.
Beth - glad to share the knowledge, much as I wish we didn't have it, if it helps others (hopefully to say, no, it's not that!) then it's worth writing. He and hubby got through a lot together and he's left a big hole, but he left a good legacy in the knowledge we and others have gained from knowing him.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
thanks for that and also for everything you have written. It must have been hard for you but is much appreciated.