Update to TMJ and bitless bridle threads

I want you to have an x-ray done because it would be fascinating to see :P
It must have been a humungous impact to fracture the skull, that thing is incredibly tough!

:D

I would love to see it too! Give me two or three hundred quid and I'll have it done for you :D

He broke the top of his eye socket, that much was obvious because it shed dead stuff out of a tiny hole in the top for several weeks, culminating in spitting out three shards of needle sharp black bone, when it promptly closed and healed in 24 hours.

What I didn't know until the EDT showed me, was just how close that is to the attachment of the jaw, which is not itself broken, as is clear from the way he eats. His jaw was a sixteenth of an inch out of alignment, but that's gone back now, thankfully.

He's having three months in the field, then we will start again and cross our fingers that there is no lasting nerve damage. Clearly there was some, because he didn't appear to be in pain until two weeks or so after he did it.

Let me know if you want my address to send a cheque :D
 
Have to say, I would want x-rays if it were me. They certainly couldn't hurt, and might show if there were any further unseen damage too. All the very best to him either way. Have you any idea as to what could have led him to charge headfirst into the wall, has his eyesight been checked, etc?

I have owned him three years and in that time he has hit his head many times. My OH saw him run slap bang into the wall of the barn in daylight last September. He was on his own at the time. He split his eyebrow that day, but not too seriously. His eyes were checked in the last month and are perfect.

I can only assume that it is to do with the fact that he is so highly bred that he has almost no guard hairs. I've tried fitting him with blinkers, but I can't make absolutely certain that they won't slip and blind him. I now keep him in a stable instead of a barn. Experience is that it won't stop him bashing his head, but at least I can hope that he can't do it at speed.

Believe me, he would have x rays like a shot if they would help, but I spent a thousand pounds keeping him alive with an infected kick wound in 2012, over two thousand pounds sorting out severe kissing spines in 2013, and I can't justify the amount it would cost to sedate and x ray him when a vet is not even asking for it.


PS please don't anyone start the 'why aren't you insured then' attack. I am not insured because when you own three horses it is much cheaper to self insure.
There are other benefits too, but that's a different thread..
 
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Just out of interest CP- do you know why he bashes his head? Could there be a tumour / pressure in there that you don't know about that could be picked up by an xray?
 
Just out of interest CP- do you know why he bashes his head? Could there be a tumour / pressure in there that you don't know about that could be picked up by an xray?

Full marks for the skilful wording Jenni :D

I've already told you he's been doing it for the three years I have owned him. It's accidental from the look of it when he has been seen to do it, not deliberate. There is no reason whatsoever to suspect a head tumour, which would be exceptionally rare. Clumsiness due to having no guard hairs, on the other hand, would be a more likely explanation by a very large margin.

However, if you would like to send me the money to do some x rays to satisfy your own curiousity, please feel free. If by some incredible and unlikely chance we do see a tumour, I can then have him shot without waiting the year I was planning to give him to try to come right.

Or would you just like my vet's phone number so that you can ring her and ask why she doesn't think x rays will help?
 
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just read this and wanted to say I really feel for you and your horse :( you were doing soooo well after the KS ligament opp, that to have this now just isn't fair :(

Totally agree with you re: insurance, by the way.
 
just read this and wanted to say I really feel for you and your horse :( you were doing soooo well after the KS ligament opp, that to have this now just isn't fair :(

Totally agree with you re: insurance, by the way.


Thank you Kelpie, that bit of support really helps.
 
Wow :eek:
I really feel for you cptrayes and I can hear your frustration.
I may be very out of date but when I went through vet school it was pretty clear that there is little to be done for most of the bony structures of the skull when they are damaged apart from time... You can drill holes in sinuses but that's about the extent of it. You can't actively treat nerve damage, and you can't get in there and surgically repair a fractured TMJ/zygomatic arch.
So, I'd have to agree with your vet and EDT when they say that an x ray won't make any difference to the treatment. If it's soft tissue damage/nerve damage, rest and anti inflammatories. If it's fractured, rest and anti inflammatories.. Just for longer! Recovery MAY be quicker if it's just soft tissue, but three months will allow fractures to repair (if they're going to) as well.
Sorry to hijack, but I thought that might help clarify things for others who have weighed in here.
And yes, brain tumours are incredibly rare (and untreatable if present, so why worry yourself?).
 
Wow :eek:
I really feel for you cptrayes and I can hear your frustration.
I may be very out of date but when I went through vet school it was pretty clear that there is little to be done for most of the bony structures of the skull when they are damaged apart from time... You can drill holes in sinuses but that's about the extent of it. You can't actively treat nerve damage, and you can't get in there and surgically repair a fractured TMJ/zygomatic arch.
So, I'd have to agree with your vet and EDT when they say that an x ray won't make any difference to the treatment. If it's soft tissue damage/nerve damage, rest and anti inflammatories. If it's fractured, rest and anti inflammatories.. Just for longer! Recovery MAY be quicker if it's just soft tissue, but three months will allow fractures to repair (if they're going to) as well.
Sorry to hijack, but I thought that might help clarify things for others who have weighed in here.
And yes, brain tumours are incredibly rare (and untreatable if present, so why worry yourself?).


I can't put in words how much I appreciate you taking the time to write this.

Thank you.
 
What a flipping awful time you have had! Sounds like you are doing exactly the right thing for your lad though his timing is shocking - just as you were getting over the KS. Horses!! I think a great many people, who probably wouldn't post, and I wouldn't either usually would do exactly the same as you re: turn away, rest and review after time. The way in which our 'insurance' culture has devalued common sense, instinct and a pragmatic approach is often not helpful when you have plenty of experience and a stable full of horses to care for. Hopefully, this time next year you will be able to pick up and carry on with this horse - its a pretty likely outcome. Best wishes.
 
Full marks for the skilful wording Jenni :D

I've already told you he's been doing it for the three years I have owned him. It's accidental from the look of it when he has been seen to do it, not deliberate. There is no reason whatsoever to suspect a head tumour, which would be exceptionally rare. Clumsiness due to having no guard hairs, on the other hand, would be a more likely explanation by a very large margin.

However, if you would like to send me the money to do some x rays to satisfy your own curiousity, please feel free. If by some incredible and unlikely chance we do see a tumour, I can then have him shot without waiting the year I was planning to give him to try to come right.

Or would you just like my vet's phone number so that you can ring her and ask why she doesn't think x rays will help?

I work in HR and payroll, its in my foundations of my job to be able to put things 'skilfully' whatever my personal opinion ;)

I only ask because ok, he could be clumsy, but running into a wall at speed? thats not clumsiness surely? thats disoriention, confusion, or blindness? And after spending thousands already, regardless of what a vet said, I, personally, would want xrays to put peace to my own mind. Especially if he's been doing it for three years?

I don't want to send you money for Xrays to satisfy my own curiousity. Your horse, you money. I'm only expressing my opinion, as per the notion of a forum.
 
There doesn't have to be anything wrong with a horse for him to be a clumsy oaf (sorry CPT!). It's more than probable like a lot of horses he was pratting around and overshot himself. Nice to get a bit of balance on the thread by OwnedbyJoe.
 
Guard hairs are more important than we sometimes realise. A friend's mare almost lost an eye when she put her head into a hedge. Her fly mask had worn down her guard hairs and when the mask was taken off she had no perception of how close objects were.
 
What a flipping awful time you have had! Sounds like you are doing exactly the right thing for your lad though his timing is shocking - just as you were getting over the KS. Horses!! I think a great many people, who probably wouldn't post, and I wouldn't either usually would do exactly the same as you re: turn away, rest and review after time. The way in which our 'insurance' culture has devalued common sense, instinct and a pragmatic approach is often not helpful when you have plenty of experience and a stable full of horses to care for. Hopefully, this time next year you will be able to pick up and carry on with this horse - its a pretty likely outcome. Best wishes.


Thank you Palo.
 
Jenni said:
I only ask because ok, he could be clumsy, but running into a wall at speed? thats not clumsiness surely? thats disoriention, confusion, or blindness? And after spending thousands already, regardless of what a vet said, I, personally, would want xrays to put peace to my own mind. Especially if he's been doing it for three years?

It is my view that the very fact he has ALWAYS done this, for three years that I have known, and that his sight is perfect, effectively rules out there being anything more sinister going on here.

To be honest, Jenni, I'm not really very interested in you continuing to repeat what you would do if he was yours. (I heard you the first time :)) He's not yours, he's mine, and he is very well cared for.
 
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There doesn't have to be anything wrong with a horse for him to be a clumsy oaf (sorry CPT!). It's more than probable like a lot of horses he was pratting around and overshot himself. Nice to get a bit of balance on the thread by OwnedbyJoe.

I take extreme exception to this comment on the clumsy oaf's behalf. You have hurt his feelings terribly :D
 
Guard hairs are more important than we sometimes realise. A friend's mare almost lost an eye when she put her head into a hedge. Her fly mask had worn down her guard hairs and when the mask was taken off she had no perception of how close objects were.

Ooooh, I hope she was ok?

I have read that in Germany it is illegal to deliberately remove guard hairs. Obviously not to breed them out though, he's German!
 
Can't believe he's having another trauma when you were just coming out of the woods after the last one!! I won't send hugs - you don't strike me as the 'huggy' type ;) - but I do send sincere good wishes that you have some good luck soon because you are surely due for some! At least you have your new boy to focus on, he sounds fab!
 
Wowee what a drama! If my horse was accidentally walking into things ect I wouldn't have it xrayed I would have its eyes checked. I have also has a horse damage it's face by taking it's guard hairs off for showing, never again. Head and neck and notoriously difficult to X-ray and why put the horse through it if it's not going to change anything. You could be a millionaire but you still should do the right by your horse that doesn't always mean putting them through medical procedures. Time is a healer. People do make me laugh when they start telling you how to treat your horse and think they know better than the paid professional. I have given up with advice for my horse and bored of the same group of people who tell me barefoot would save him without ever seeing his feet. So sad the world isn't very supportive anymore!

I hope your horse recovers quickly and it's not too uncomfortable for him, nothing worse than seeing a horse in pain.
 
Can't believe he's having another trauma when you were just coming out of the woods after the last one!! I won't send hugs - you don't strike me as the 'huggy' type ;) - but I do send sincere good wishes that you have some good luck soon because you are surely due for some! At least you have your new boy to focus on, he sounds fab!

Thanks Sam. The little fella is quite a consolation. I hug my horses a lot, but not many people :D
 
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Wowee what a drama! If my horse was accidentally walking into things ect I wouldn't have it xrayed I would have its eyes checked. I have also has a horse damage it's face by taking it's guard hairs off for showing, never again. Head and neck and notoriously difficult to X-ray and why put the horse through it if it's not going to change anything. You could be a millionaire but you still should do the right by your horse that doesn't always mean putting them through medical procedures. Time is a healer. People do make me laugh when they start telling you how to treat your horse and think they know better than the paid professional. I have given up with advice for my horse and bored of the same group of people who tell me barefoot would save him without ever seeing his feet. So sad the world isn't very supportive anymore!

I hope your horse recovers quickly and it's not too uncomfortable for him, nothing worse than seeing a horse in pain.


Oooops, I hope I'm not one of the people who has been lecturing you about barefoot. I don't think so, but I am a big advocate for it for foot lameness issues.

His eyes have been checked, and he doesn't appear to be in pain unless anyone tries to ride him. He seems relaxed and is eating easily enough.

Thanks for your good wishes.
 
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