Uphill, downhill photo definition! (maybe?!)

Santa_Claus

Santa_Claus

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www.katiemortimore.com
Carrying on from the other thread I thought I would dig out some photos that TO ME show a clear difference between uphill and downhill.
I took both of these pictures at some recent unaffiliated dressage both horses were in the same class and therefore at the same (ish) level of training.

Now there is a clear different to me in the two horses way of going and to me the first is obviously uphill with the second obviously down! I have put straight lines in to try and illustrate what I mean...

uphill.jpg
downhill.jpg


Now is the above what everyone else thinks as uphill and downhill?! Both horses are round and in 'outlines' but I know which one i would prefer to see and ride on!
 
I think I prefer the bay in the 2nd picture; there is more of an 'outline', although the horse may be considered a little overbent. I think my ideal would actually be somewhere in between - neither uphill nor downhill, but 'on the flat' LOL!
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can i ask a q - if im riding and the horse stretches down like in the second picture...perhaos even more so, how can i tell if it is just evading my aids, or is actually stretching into a contact?

dont want to be praising for the wrong thing!!

sorry for the highjack
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[ QUOTE ]
can i ask a q - if im riding and the horse stretches down like in the second picture...perhaos even more so, how can i tell if it is just evading my aids, or is actually stretching into a contact?

dont want to be praising for the wrong thing!!

sorry for the highjack
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[/ QUOTE ]
Like this?
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yesh, if you were to give him even more rein he would take his head and neck down.

Frankie does that quite well (at times, if he's not in a spooky mood!) but i want to know if he is stretching properly and not just evading my aids by taking hold of the bit. and not just him but any horse i ride.

i am having lessons, well as soon as Frankie is sorted out anyway.
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if the horse is stretching down but maintaining an even contact in your outside rein then in my mind that is not evading.

But stretching down is an exercise for the horse to stretch across the back and in a dressage test you should be encouraging the horse to maintain self carriage so unless the movement actually states for the horse to be stretching down (which some of the prelims and novices do now) the horse should be maintaining self carriage whereby the poll is the highest point.

For example although this is only me working in Dan before he is feeling fully flexible this is where I like him to be stretching forward but not down (fatal to ask Dan so stretch down unless i fancy a concrete weight on my hands!
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yes, you're right, you can tell from the overall look, where the weight is (down or up). i'd be interested to know which one placed higher in the dressage though, as i have my suspicions that it will be the second one. the second one is just a moment though, the rider could have ridden it up and through a few strides later, so i don't detest it.
of course, some horses are built more level or uphill than others... it's the ones that are built on the forehand that take a lot of tact and correct training to keep them light and make them look uphill.
 
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yes, you're right, you can tell from the overall look, where the weight is (down or up). i'd be interested to know which one placed higher in the dressage though, as i have my suspicions that it will be the second one.

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I can tell you the first scored higher (but didn't win the class) and although the first didn't maintain that outline all the time it was in a much lighter frame the majority of the test it just became tense at times which lost it the class. The second horse wasn't quite so downhill for the majority of the test but it was a lot longer in its frame and the weight was clearly moving on to the forehand. although I was taking photos (for practice) i was there with judge (my trainer) and scribe and so heard all the comments about the tests.

As an interesting point the first I believe was a welsh/cleveland bay cross (if i heard the owner correctly) the second was a warmblood...
 
Extremely difficult to tell from a photo[even when they are excellent] as it is a split second of a test and the first hasn't even started its test.Neither look correct the first rider is having to ride with hands low and I feel the horse is not accepting the contact, the second could be ridden up and forward more .
Having said that it is good for us all to debate the pictures and try to understand what we want to achieve.
 
very true

some more of the same horse.. It was definitely tense but as I understood it, it was one of the horses first ever outings if not the first.

First photo clearly has loose inside rein contact although outside contact seems ok as rein not dropping down in to gap between head and neck
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(btw lots more pics where these came from as took about 400+ that day!!!)
 
Sorry to be boring but I would really appreciate if you would comment on how my horse is doing.... I've only ever done 2 tests with him at BE events - one judge liked him, the other didn't...

IMG_3188.jpg

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see how I would definitely say he was uphill in that the majority of his weight is behind but he doesn't look completely soft over his back and looks tense in his jaw. But as many say above these are all a moment in time as they are photos.

I can understand how some judges like and dislike a horse like yours. Personally I prefer uphill others prefer rounder but slightly on the forehand. at the end of the day it is subjective and you have to please the judge infront of you that day!
 
Santa_Claus - I just had a thought - I take it that these people ARE both aware that they are being discussed on an open forum? I'd hate to stumble across a critique of me and my horse when I wasnt even aware that my photo had been taken for the purpose!
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To throw a spanner into the works.....

Gimleyflat.jpg


This horse looks uphill in his neck but he is sooooooo tense.

Same horse, after me attempting to repair the damage for 1 month. See how he is stepping through so much better and whilst he isnt round enough, the whole picture is uphill yet relaxed...
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To me, G looks uphill in the neck only. The head is behind the vertical, his body looks downhill despite the ground looking fairly flat, and he looks very tense and "held" in his mouth.
Second picture looks for a start more happy overall, not in a proper outline as such but no outline is better than a forced one IMO. His body actually looks more uphill in the second photo as well.
That's what I like about you and your sister, you're very much not obsessed about the head and neck and train and ride the "right way round" (engine first, pretty outline second)!
 
Aww thankyou
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The one thing I hate above all other things is riding a horse over-bent. Yet its sooooo common, whether the horse be up in the neck or down in the neck.
You see it everywhere and sadly I dont think this thread is going to change the people's perceptions much!!
 
hmmmm. I feel the most important aspect to achieve this 'uphill' frame and movement is that the hind end is balanced, with the hocks underneath the horse enabling them to 'power through' from behind into a secure contact.The overall uphill frame can be helped by a rider sitting up - containing that impulsion.

R>E the first set of photos you show of the bay..
With all due respect, I much prefer the first picture you have shown, Boss. Sure, the horse may not be relaxed through its topline, but it appears in a much more secure outline, albeit slightly overbent and forced. Crucially, it seems fairly active behind. In the second picture, the horse isn't even tracking up, and appears to have little, if any, impulsion. The frame is too long, with no true outline, and it seems to be going no where. To me, the idea of an uphill horse is one that, if you let the 'handbreak' off, the horse will stride out in lengthened strides, such is the sufficient nature of that energy. Hence why bold riding is required from the seat and leg. I feel that that horse, if two seconds after that photo, was asked to move forward in its gait, it would struggle and collapse in a heap. Obviously at that stage the engine should be of more importance as Silmarillion says , but to achieve the true uphill frame an outline is required. PErhaps this horse just isn't ready yet?

I don't mean to be rude, nor insult your riding or approach, which has impressed me greatly on all occasions, and this is only a one second snapshot! Indeed, the horse appears happy in its way of going, and the second set are lush!
 
Lifeslemons-
With all due respect, you have not sat on this horse.
You think the first picture is nice, I question your eye big-time. The second picture is not taken at the same moment, the hindleg is snapping up and about to reach forward t step into his track- he is tracking up more than in the first picture for sure. Trust me, one thing this horse will never lack is power or impulsion but the person who had him before me never taught the horse to hold himself and control his body and hence the horse was out of control on the flat and over fences.
 
I've found these posts extremely interesting and a total eye-opener to people's perceptions of what's "uphill" and "downhill" - Many of you (although extremely opinionated on this subject!) are getting the "advanced outline" and "novice outline" mixed up with being "uphill" and "downhill"

A horse should always be encouraged to work over it's back into a reaching contact - whether the horse is in the more advanced outline with the poll "up" or reaching further down in a novice outline - the face should always be on the vertical - Any horse that is working correctly should be able to be ridden deeper (NOT rounder - just stretching - with the horse's face staying vertical and not going over bent) - or ridden further "up" into the bridle - Before a horse is strong enough to be ridden in this advanced outline muscle and strength needs to be built up (hence novice to advanced) Always remember... ride down, in order to be able to ride up!

However... this ISN'T Downhill and Uphill - that is totally different, however one can cause the other - If someone is allowing their horse to ride overbent, too deep (face behind the vertical) and not working through from behind into a contact - then the horse will fall onto it's forhand - and work "downhill" - If worked correctly (whether in a novice outline or an advanced outline) from behind, over it's back, with a correctly engaged hind leg and free shoulders, then the horse may (if built to allow this and if working correctly) go "uphill"
I will dig out some pictures to show you the difference!

Kate x
 
Agree with you, lifeslemons. The first picture is far more pleasing to the eye; that said, I can see that he is tense through his neck and back, and the second photo clearly shows that he is stepping through with his quarters under him. But if I were buying a horse, for instance, and those two images were put in front of me, it would be the first I would go for.
 
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