Uphill, downhill photo definition! (maybe?!)

Photos
This photo shows H working in a nice "novice" outline- she is neither on her forehand - or working uphill- she is nicely working from behind into her rein contact with her face on the vertical - At this point, she could be ridden "up" more - or stretched down.


This is IMHO a lovely outline for a novice horse - you can see her stretching into the bridle - her face is vertical and she's reaching over her back...
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This is H in a more advanced outline... Poll up - in front of my leg producing a lovely medium trot...
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This is H in a nice "uphill" trot - see her hind leg engaged - her withers are "up" yet she's still clearly stretching into a contact (ie - you don't have to be poll high pulled into an advanced outline to show an uphill outline)
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This is a horse clearly on it's forehand - and is working "downhill" - see how she's sunk all her weight onto her foreleg and her backside is up in the air? she's "running down hill"
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Compared to this canter pic where she is balanced over all four legs and definitely not on her forehand...
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And this is the "overbent" way of going...
...but also it's clearly "uphill" if you look at her hind leg, backside and the much higher withers!
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I've tried to show the difference with photos of H working - so feel free to comment!
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Kate x
 
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Deffo isn't about head position, it is about working from behind, stepping under in a true way, rounding over the back, lift of the shoulders and working UP into the bridle, and not banana necked down into a contact....IMHO!

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Put like that it sounds so simple? So WHY is dressage so hard?!
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I'm really enjoying this thread BTW but have stopped participating in the discussion as I clearly know bog-all about dressage having been unable to tell which of my tests today was the better one!
 
It is why I don't DO dressage SC - I can talk the talk, I know WHAT I think is correct, but hell, putting it into practise is another matter
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Partoow says my downfall is I try too hard and try to do too much, should let it come naturally and stop punishing myself for my shortcomings - I think that can be transferred to a lot of us.
 
Something tells me people posting here have got confused somewhat! Wether a horse is up or down hill is not determined by wether its head/poll is held down and in or alowed to rise above the vertical, but rather how the power created from the hindleg is transfered through the body to the contact yes? How the power is created and softness through the back to the contact is maintained is obviously down to the individual horse. For instance, a horse that is naturaly balanced uphill, with a tendancy to poke it's nose and bring the head above the vertical (and hollowing the back therefore) is a horse, in my opinion that will obviously benefit from being ridden in a lower, deeper frame. And a horse whos balance is naturally downhill would benefit, in my opinion, from being ridden more up in the frame.

ETS- not a reply to Boss, just a adding to the post!
 
I would of said she looks on her forehand as she looks heavy on the front end, the backend isn't under her enough and is higher then the front. But as you said the high leg action does make her look uphill.
This thread is really making me look every picture and video I have of all horses to see if they are uphill or not. I will be studying my boss tomorrow to see if she rides hers uphill enough, though is only riding babies at the moment so I won't expect to much.
 
I agree to a certain extent- you school a horse to improve its weakness so if the horse found it easy to be more up in its frame and didnt have the suppleness to work a bit rounder/deeper then you'd school that to improve the horse's scope and range of movement.
You wouldnt necessarily pusue the issue with every horse though, a weak horse can lose confidence and many people lack the subtlety in their riding to get it 'just right'
 
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I'm really enjoying this thread BTW but have stopped participating in the discussion as I clearly know bog-all about dressage having been unable to tell which of my tests today was the better one!

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LOL I know bog-all about dressage either, but I know what feels nice to me and therefore what makes the movements rideable and the test fluent and accurate. Sadly not all judges agree with me (my tongue is firmly in my cheek btw!), but if I've done a lousy test and got a lousy mark, fair enough. If I've been slated when I thought it was good, I watch the video, scratch my head, cast dispersions about the judge's eyesight and move on.
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If I had a trainer I would show him/her the evidence and find out what I'd missed, but unfortunately I don't.
 
Actually I've just watched and uploaded the vid from my first test and I see one of the (many) problems - I don't bend my elbows enough so I look stiff through the reins and as though I am holding him in a false outline. I'm not really, it's a bad habit from when I was a kid due to riding things like this where if my arms weren't straight I was holding the reins on the buckle basically! Sorry, total tangent but at least I am learning.

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Naaaaaaaaaaaaw so, so cute!!!!

I have recently had to totally change my arm position, elbows at hips, bloody hard to stop the habits once they have formed! I have even had to start riding with the whip under the thumbs - oh the shame, but it works!
 
Louise you and me both! I have been riding with a whip under my thumbs too to try and get to the point where my instructor no longer yells 'what the hell is your right hand DOING???' at me! And how can it be so hard to bend your elbows - I do it perfectly well when typing!

Do you like the way in that pic my feet only just come over the ends of the saddle flaps? It is embarrassing to admit, but that horse was, in fact, only a pony - barely 14.2!!
 
Love it! the confidence of youth! Imagine what you would say today if someone asked you to go for a canter in a field on a horse about 24 hands high!
 
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Love it! the confidence of youth! Imagine what you would say today if someone asked you to go for a canter in a field on a horse about 24 hands high!

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Canter? I was doing an ODE!! Oh yes, a dressage test, SJ and that was my XC round! It was long enough ago that only pros had body protectors, must be 20 years old that photo, if not more. The place it was taken is now the Half Moon Dressage Stud! (Used to be a riding school)
 
I can sort of see where we're going from Weezy's description & H's mums pictures. So, a horse can LOOK uphill and be MARKED uphill, and not BE uphill, because its back & quarters arenot properly engaged? And is uphill the same as collected? Or can you be uphill & extended? Can a galloping horse be uphill?
 
Spotted cat- lovely pony. Welsh?
edited to say, sorry- I will hijack any post onto breeding- I've been really holding myself back here- almost did it on Kerrilli's mare - nearly bursting by the time I got to h's mums, and got to your palomino & couldn't help it...
 
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I can sort of see where we're going from Weezy's description & H's mums pictures. So, a horse can LOOK uphill and be MARKED uphill, and not BE uphill, because its back & quarters arenot properly engaged? And is uphill the same as collected? Or can you be uphill & extended? Can a galloping horse be uphill?

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Absolutely YES to the first question.

Uphill is NOT the same as collected - IMHO uphill is true *power from behind being accepted into a soft hand*

Absolutely yes you can be uphill and extended - indeed this is when you can find it easier to see the truth behind the riding as if the horse falls onto the forehand once asked for extension it shows the weakness.

A galloping horse should ALWAYS (in an ideal world) be uphill (the power coming from behind, up and out) - it is something I struggle with with P as she wants to go downhill and in all honesty it feels unsafe...but then I just thought of flat racing horses, which are a different matter altogether
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but then I just thought of flat racing horses, which are a different matter altogether

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It was that I was thinking of, to be honest. I saw some footage of Generous racing (on the Scarvagh stud website)- as far from a dressage situation as you can get- yet he had this amazing bounding action & outclassed the other horses totally- I'd always thought that uphill & collected were sort of the same, yet his action was uphill but also forward, though obviously not collected.
 
i've thought of another way of putting it that might help (unless everyone disagrees with me...!)
uphill = more like rear-wheel drive. more power from behind making the horse look and feel slightly lighter in front. it has nothing to do with where the horse's nose is, lots to do with him being able to raise his shoulders because he's taking more weight behind and allowing the power through from behind via a soft back. a jumping horse needs to be uphill to be safe... if he is, even if he's a bit wrong he'll adjust and jump himself out of trouble. this is why the canter mustn't get long and flat and strung out to a fence, because it ends up downhill and hard to adjust. (i think it's why so many hurdlers have such awful falls at such stupidly small fences too, but that's another argument!)
a physio told me years ago that a young horse of mine didn't push herself along from behind, she pulled herself along with her front legs... does that make sense? took a lot of slow patient work to get her connected and working uphill.
hope that makes it a bit clear... probably as clear as mud now!
 
I know it is very hard to do from a picture, but could someone please evaluate these pictures, I know they are not the greatest but it REALLy would be appreciated. The idea is exctly the same for driving as riding BTW, just even harder to acheive. (Pip is a 13.3, Hackney TB welsh mix)

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And dare I say it, but I think Brook, In obstacles at least give being uphill a good stab for a native 13.1


Sorry to sound desperate, but It really would be a help to here your opinions.

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What a cracking little pony!
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You should be really chuffed with him/her?
The first picture shows a really engaged, forward trot with Pip reaching into a lovely contactn -it's very uphill - look at how low his/her quarters are in relation to his/her shoulders/withers! (This is a particularly good pic to show people as your reins accentuate the engagement - Also your pony has his/her poll at the highest point - and has his face vertical - is striding through and overtracking - well done you!
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Love your pics!
Kate x
 
Interesting post.
My little arab's problem with dressage is that he currently struggles to be both uphill but also relaxed through his neck and this is causing us our problems. In prelim/novice level, the judges don't actually necessarily want (according to my instructor who is a listed judge) the horse's poll to be the highest point - they start looking for this 'higher' more advanced outline at elementary and above. J is built quite uphill, and has plenty of 'engine', but struggles to take the contact down and away and maintan a consistant contact. When he does stretch down, he tends to drop onto the forehand!
Anyway, point being that at the level of prelim/nov dressage, I've been taught that the judges are looking for a horse to be uphill, power from behind, but stretched down into a relaxed contact. Which sounds so easy doesn't it!!!
 
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