use of crops (whips) regards the martingale debate

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you may get away with it lightly know but after a period of time you may not be so lucky
it should not be used in this mannor even if he is playing up maybe you should find out why he isnt going forward and if it is down to being naughty
try to possibly find a kinder way to encorage him forward .
but in no way should you use this kind of punishment

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I'm sorry to disagree with you Ischa but there is nothing wrong with what BeckyD is doing. Nobody can possibly claim to know what is right for another person's horse, and, lets face it, some horses are plain lazy or stubborn! BeckyD has not said that she whips him and whips him until he goes forwards; all she does is reinforce her leg aid with a flick of the whip to get him going onward. This is not punishment!
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I don't carry a whip - Canto is scared to death of them, so the most I can carry on him is a short jumping whip, which I do when we hack out, just in case. I don't bother on other horses now really, I've got out of the habit. I don't think there is anything wrong with using one occasionally to back up your leg, but I think if you have to use it a lot you should reschool! (not aimed at anyone!)
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It was laziness. I can't imagine he's going to have flashbacks over it - honest! I wouldn't have classed it as punishment, it wasn't done hard enough for that. It was the having to use it at all that shocked me most. I've carried a schooling whip for 20 years and probably used it max 20 times up until that point!!

If a horse is being lazy and not forward off your leg, and repeated transitions don't work, even after a month of trying, what would you recommend? (assume there is nothing wrong with the horse, rider or tack). I would like to find a kinder way but can't really think of any. A few flicks with a whip on a one-off basis (i.e. two schooling sessions within a 12-month period) has to better than pony club-style kicks constantly for a 12-month period? The good news is that my trainer said afterwards she'd never seen him so relaxed and loose in his movement and he's a much happier horse since then. If there's another way of achieving this I'd be keen to know it. I'm a wimp when it comes to discipline
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Thank you! It seriously wasn't punishment, it was a "I'm going to ask you nicely and if you don't listen, then I'm going to ask you louder". It's a lesson soon learnt, evidently, bless him. I'm so lucky to have such a genuine horse.
 
I've just started wondering - if a flick of a schooling whip to get a stubborn or lazy horse moving forwards and obedient to the leg is considered 'wrong', what other methods could you possibly use? Constant use of spurs, so that the horse becomes even more dead to the leg? A higher energy releasing type of food, so that the horse becomes hyperactive and unmanageable? Someone standing in the centre of a school cracking a lunge whip as you ride the horse around? I suppose the possibilities are endless, but if you ask me, I would prefer a flick of the whip any day.
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Do you have any other ideas, Ischa?
 
I would rather give the occassional flick of a schooling whip to back up by leg aid than booting her in the ribs.

Anyone who doesn't believe in whips is welcome to try riding Daisy out on a hack after a day in the starvation paddock and see how far off the yard they get.
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All that lovely lush grass is just too tempting for her when she has been eating nothing but soaked hay. Yes I wish that I didn't need to whip her occassionally to stop snacking but if I didn't I'd be hauling her head out of bushes which would be bad for her mouth or I would have an incredibly fat horse and you'd all be abusing me for that
 
I always carry a schooling whip, rarely use it, only if she has a napping fit, as this puts us in danger on the road. I was told that she didn't react well to a whip, however I assume that she was hit on the bottom, as I have never had a problem with using a schooling whip to reinforce my leg when she is having a strop.
 
I always carry one - my mare is a lazy cow at times and a tap behind the leg to back up my legs works a treat, as does laying it firmly on her shoulder when she starts to nap. I only ever smacked her hard with it once when she decided to get down and have a roll with me on board.
 
Whehn i remember, i ride my section B with a schooling whip as its really hard to get him to bend from the leg
For driving you have to carry and use a whip, i dont normally use it, tohugh i am going to need to start, you actually get makred down for not using it in dressage and it basically replaces your legs
MY section D used to be pretty scared of whips- bad driving accident when she was young, too young, dont think her owners were sympathetic- but shes quite calm with them now, i dont use one on her at the moemnt
I dont agree with peple whipping a youngster or any horse really ifd it spooks, i was hacking out with my old riding instructor once, she had this green young thing and it perfectly understandably spooked at something and she responded by shouting and whipping it- thats the differwnce between using one correctily and not
As a triaing aid i agree, for the hell of it/because your woundup/angry no.
 
I always carry a schooling whip but don't necessarily use it.

If it is used then it is just a tickle, she doesn't need more than that and most of the time the fact that you're carrying it is enough.

Anyone who is dead set against whips/crops is very welcome to come and ride mine when she has a lazy head on without one - she'll be dead to the leg and your legs will be knackered if you try
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I pretty much always carry one now, schooling, hacking or jumping. My horse sometimes plants herself on hacks and usually a smack or two is enough to make her go forward, I can't remember the last time I smacked her schooling, she gets tapped a lot as it helps to move her forward in trot, and I have a short whip for jumping, she gets a firm smack for a run out or refusal and she occasionaly gets a tap before a jump for encouragement. I do not believe that it is cruel at all.
 
I always carry one with Willow but don't often use it. Used to only carry one with Lacey at shows - as a sort of comfort blanket I think, but have recently discovered she doesn't seem to nap when I carry a whip, but does when I don't, I think I'll start carrying one.
 
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Ok I AM A NH person. I practice natural horsemanship - which does mean you'll see me with a pointer (Parelli call it a carrot stick) and rope halter, long line etc. I DO NOT agree with Parelli.

However, I also ride "normally", with a bit, bridle, saddle and schooling whip, shock horror. I try to abide by NH principals whenever I am with a horse, and have to balance the two schools of thought. Since I can ride a simple dressage test without a bridle on his head for fun at home, and get scores in the 60s when I'm competing at basic dressage I don't think we're doing too badly at finding that balance.

Why would a "wooly fluffy fluffy no backbone NH person" want to ride with a schooling whip? I school F "normally", but don't use it to hurt. I would far rather he learnt to move softly off my leg by phasing up, which I learnt in both "normal" and NH.
So... say I want horse to go from walk to trot. I think, look and lighten my seat to ask the horse to go. Wait for response, if no response I phase up to a nudge with my legs, if no response I ask again firmly with my legs but at the same time a tickle from schooling whip. I mean a tickle, which is a flick or hold the end on his side for a couple of seconds. Its enough to irritate him like a fly has landed on him and he moves from that. IF I ever had to go further I would do a small kick backed up by a slightly firmer tap. If a horse didn't respond to that I'd go back to basics, because there is something seriously wrong.

If at any point of going through those phases (which can take a second or two or longer depending on what I am trying to achieve) he responds, I quit asking. The result is a horse who tries to react to the lightest of aids, which I'm pretty happy with.

Alternatively I could kick harder and harder to get a response, which would deaden my horse's sides, look and feel ungainly and make life harder for next time I got on him.

The contraversial bit is this bit I guess. I always carry one schooling or hacking, but not when I'm doing NH. At the end of the day on a hack I would do WHATEVER it took to get me and that horse to safety if we were in a position of danger, and I'd challenge anyone to say they wouldn't do the same. I'd hope to never have to go to a big kick/yank/hard smack, and all the schooling and practice would stand me in good stead to not need to, but I would do so without hesitation or regret if the situation needed a response NOW and horse didn't/wouldn't respond quick enough to anything else. I would have either done the same as MizElz in that stream/road incident, or got off and led it through, I have on several occasions dismounted to lead a horse past something they are spooking at because we were on a road and the traffic was backing up.

As a stroppy teenager years ago I have used a whip in temper and bitterly regret my actions. If I had my time again I'd want a responsible adult to take the whip off me and smack me with it - it might have taught me a thing or two!!!
 
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your probley find she was beaten with one if she acts likes this

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What a load of tosh.
Your understanding of horses would appear to be on a par with your understanding of spelling & grammar.

Of course it's wrong to beat a horse.........thats taking the word 'beat' to mean htiing the horse repeatedly in temper rather than applying the whip in an appropriate manner.

I hope you never want to take any professional qualifications as you'll need to demonstrate how to carry both jumping & schooling whips correctly - & as the ridden phase of many exams is carried out using riding school horses who know instantly how to exploit any weaknesses in those riding them I dare they you'd have to know how to use it correctly as well to pass.
 
I always carry one out hacking, just for safety really. In the school, it depends. Ozzy doesn't need one, so unless he's in a stubborn mood, I don't take one. I've never actually whipped him before, he doesn't need it (I just smack my leg with it to make it hiss if he's being really naughty. He usually behaves after that, the wuss)
 
I always carry one, very very rarely use it. IF I use the whip its a little tap but I can't remember the last time I needed it. I carry a schooling whip and it keeps cars a little further away and moves branches or prickly things quite well. I only have to threaten and Cropi moves!! I do use it more when I schooling, occasionally if she will not go forward dispite being pushed on with my leg, she sometimes falls in and I rest it on her shoulder to keep her out.

Nothing cruel in that I don't think


ps Smoochy where did you get your avatar from???
 
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can I ask why you have never used one....? are you a NH/parelli type?

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I never EVER use a whip on Antifaz or PF. I simply don't need it. Does that make a parelli-type? *shudder*

ETS: Oh, hang on, I forgot... It's ok as long as I call it a carrot stick, right?
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I would definitely use a whip if I felt it necessary.
 
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What a load of tosh.
Your understanding of horses would appear to be on a par with your understanding of spelling & grammar.

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Took the words right out of my mouth!

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And mine
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can I ask why you have never used one....? are you a NH/parelli type?

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I never EVER use a whip on Antifaz or PF. I simply don't need it. Does that make a parelli-type? *shudder*

ETS: Oh, hang on, I forgot... It's ok as long as I call it a carrot stick, right?
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I would definitely use a whip if I felt it necessary.

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Sorry, they were meant as 2 seperate questions and not meant to sound like they were related, my bad...! Didnt mean to insinuate that if you didnt use one you were a NH/parelli follower.
 
leave my spelling and grammer out of this not all of us can be perfect .
ive work with a horse rescue for three years helping out i seen so many horses that have been ill treated and beaten to a degree
where they have been afraid of the object theyve been beaten with
ive seen injures that have been inflected by crops
this description sounds to me a case of abuse that has happened in the past if not i applogise if you dont like the things i say on my post and my spelling and grammer then i surgest you dont post on my post and as for the horse qualifications i have mine thanks very much
 
lets think about whats different between edicational aids to crops
first edicational aids can correct a horse in any problem youve got
can be dangerous if not correctly used and used by a non experienced person
and with crops
crops can help back up leg aids when needed
can be dangerous if use by non experienced people and use in a uncorrect mannor
but we all still use the crops whats the different between these two different equipments?
 
ischa.....advice can only be...please use spell check.....

even my txt speaking 17 yr old has NO idea how to decipher your replies........................


thank you
 
Well I'd love to know what recognised equine qualifications you do hold as I've come to the conclusion that you're about 12 years old, & that you probably have very little actual experience of horses & riding them.

As for working with rescued horses for the last three years does your organisation specialise in horses that have been beaten? I ask this because the vast majority of horse abuse in this country involves horses that have been neglected, such as those found at Spindles Farm. You claim to have worked with these horses for three years & say that "They are all afraid of the object that they have been beaten with".
So are you claiming that these unfortunate creatures are scared of a crop but not not a lunge whip? That they differentiate between implements? Please explain more fully - with some case histories to illustrate your findings, so that we can all achieve your level of understanding in this matter.

With regard to your assertion that the misuse of any item of tack can be regarded as abuse you are right. However I really don't think that a horse who had been ridden in a martingale that was too tight would have the same degree of mistrust that one who had been severely beaten might have.
 
im actually 23 may i say
and been riding since i was three ive worked with many horses over the years ranging from showju
mpers ,showponies ,racehorses, backing and schooling horses, tb stallions , negleted and mistreated horses and ponys and broodmares .
i dont have to explain my self to you or anyone on this sight
i come on here to get and give advice not to have abuse
if you have a problem with me or what i say i surgest you dont talk to me a tall inless you can act like a fully grown adult which your acting more like a two year old that winges
which there are a few people on this site that are like this
one thing to say shape up or ship out love
 
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im actually 23 may i say
and been riding since i was three ive worked with many horses over the years ranging from showju
mpers ,showponies ,racehorses, backing and schooling horses, tb stallions , negleted and mistreated horses and ponys and broodmares .
i dont have to explain my self to you or anyone on this sight
i come on here to get and give advice not to have abuse
if you have a problem with me or what i say i surgest you dont talk to me a tall inless you can act like a fully grown adult which your acting more like a two year old that winges
which there are a few people on this site that are like this
one thing to say shape up or ship out love

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RAOTFPMSL!!

My what a long & varied employment history for one who has reached the grand old age of 23 & earlier you said you'd worked with mistreated horses for three years. That means you'd had all those different jobs before you were 20? . You can't have stayed very long in any of them then........I'm sure we can all draw our own conclusions as to why
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Please quote from whichever post I have made that you feel is a 'winge'....... & also where I've been abusive towards you? If anything it would appear to be the other way around
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All I've done is ask you to back up your more ludicrous claims with some facts........
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That you don't seem to be able to is your problem not mine
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Take some of your own advice & grow up...........take JMs advice & use a spell checker........deciphering your posts makes solving the enigma code appear straightforward. If they weren't so entertaining I doubt I'd bother
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Finally you STILL haven't told us what your equine qualifications actually are...........maybe if we knew that we might take you a bit more seriously........although I have my doubts about that!!
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Finally you STILL haven't told us what your equine qualifications actually are...........maybe if we knew that we might take you a bit more seriously........although I have my doubts about that!!
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I'm guessing Riding and Road Safety.
S
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