Use of whip in racing study results

I would just like to point out that what I'm talking about is jump racing. I know relatively little about the inside life of flat racing because I have only worked in jump racing, however...

1) Jump racers are turned out. I point you to www.kimbaileyracing.com - if you click on his blog, and scroll down a few days, you'll see pictures of his in training jumps horses playing together in their field. I only use him because I know there are pictures from the last week - but they do get turn out.

2) Jump horses are not raced as 2 year olds. That's a whole different kettle of fish.

The 3 times Gold Cup winner, Best Mate, used to go to dressage competitions, and I know many a jumps horse who has spent time away schooling over showjumps or out hunting for various different reasons. They go out hacking on the roads and on trips to the beach, which is two things my horses have never got to do! It's a varied, good life.
 
Teagreen- thanks for the clarification.

I would be gratefull if you could you answer a few questions for me regarding the jump horses start in life

1, at what age do they go into training?

2, are they bred by the same studs as flat horses?

3, Are less jump horses bred each year and no "culling" occur?

Many thanks
 
personally i think that if i were a racehorse running my little heart out and began to get tired then got hit with a whip when i was nearly at the finish line it would probably put me off trying any further. i think dont think theres much point in hitting the horse with the whip during the last leg of the race as i dont think it would encourage them to move any faster.
 
teagreen said:
Ever been hit with a racing whip? Think it hurts a thoroughbred in full gallop? Watch a race and see how many times a jockey actually hits the horse - much of the time they are just waving it.

Over2You, I can't be bothered writing out yet another reply to you because I know we've argued before and neither of our opinions will change.

People who think racing should be banned are ridiculous. What on earth do you suppose we do with all the horses and people involved with it?
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Youre so right if a jockey abuses his whip he will be punished, even just waving your stick makes them go faster, and for all these poor racehorses as quoted before, they are treated like kings, better then being in a riding school and have some idiot trying to ride on you and then come back in a box full of muck, and not geting to eat as much as they should do
 
teagreen said:
Dear, I'm not naive, I used to spend many a fun hour running around a racing yard with a racing stick hitting my friends, and it hurt - we were relaxed and standing still and giggling and if you got a hell of an arm behind it, it did sting the flesh. Though it never left the same mark that hitting each other with a 'normal' riding whip did..

I agree, it's going to hurt when used hard enough. However, if it was used 'hard enough' every time a jockey hit a horse (particularly these often thin skinned TB's), they would come back marked every time. I daresay they'd come back anxious, flinching, a horse in pain. But they don't. Those that do come back marked aren't ignored, the jockey is banned. Jockeys are often banned when the horse comes back absolutely fine and showing no adverse effects whatsoever - there is always someone watching out for and ready to punish the jockey who uses the whip too much.

I know they can feel it but I don't believe it really hurts them, causes them an unacceptable level of pain, otherwise you'd see a lot more signs than you do just now. But I'm not stupid and I agree with whoever it was who wrote in The Telegraph at the time this study came up and said we will never truely know about the impact of the whip until we have talking horses. Until then, I haven't seen any that have been horrifically damaged by the whip in racing.

It's a shame for racing that it is so high profile and that whips are called 'whips'. For the amount of 'suffering' racehorses I've seen, I've seen a hell of a lot more proper suffering in the showing, dressage and showjumping worlds. I've seen spurs misused frequently in various different places, but I don't disagree with using spurs - it is the rider who hurts the horse, not the spurs. Same with the whip in racing, and luckily those who misuse it are punished. I really believe it is a useful tool during a race for getting a lazy horse going, for keeping them straight, for preventing accidents - but I don't believe it causes vast amounts of suffering.
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No not as many horses die in showjumping, do you actualy know what some do to make the horse jump higher and lift his legs ?
 
Megan_T said:
What would happen to the TB breed if racing was banned? I mean PURE TB's..... would be a very sad day if the breed disappeared....

I have to agree with the point that there is a hell of a lot of unseen suffering in other equine sports too. I have had beautiful, strong showjumpers returned to me (as a groom) after being worked with blood dripping from their sides from being spurred and sweating like I have never, ever seen - shaking from head to toe. Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Although it suits some people's mentality to think that...

I am on and off deciding about the use of the whip in racing - but I certainly don't think it should be banned. I honestly believe that they do enjoy it - I've seen enough TB's refuse to start to believe that if they don't want to, they won't! Lol.

Who knows - they'll always be a rift with this one, as with many other things in life - it's what the makes the world go around.
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At least racehorses are trained to do what they do some showjumpers amateurs dont ride out or train there horses properly, and then go showjumping, this is a lot harder for the horse , then getting a slap with a whip, but you're right about slapping a horse that has nothing more to give, but for that reason there are stewards , who will watch and punish the jockey
 
teagreen said:
Well we're never going to be able to 'experience life from an animals perspective' because we're humans.
There are a lot of horses around me - including 2 jump racing yards and hundreds more 'pet' horses.
The racehorses are turned out everyday - we pass them rolling about in their fields. They spend the night on deep shaving beds with the best quality hay and feed and fresh water, and every morning the same lass will take their rugs off and groom them and then take them out - either for a hack on the roads or in the country, for some work in the school or a few turns up the all weather gallop. They are cooled off, groomed, and let outside for the afternoon. If they are injured, they are given the absolute best vet care possible, and they spend the summer months 'roughed off' next to our farm, lazing about a massive grass field with a shelter and are checked everyday. Sometimes they get to go racing, and they seem to bound up the ramp with the enthusiasm of a horse going hunting. If they do happen to be injured on the track, they are put out of their misery within 5 minutes of the injury happening.

Today I went for a walk and passed a field of ponies. It was a tiny field without a blade of grass in it, it was just pure mud as I'm sure so many little fields are just now. They had a shelter, but it had no bottom or bedding in it, it was just pure mud too. They have a scummy bowl of water and it would seem that once a week, someone throws a bit of hay in for them. The field is lined by rubbish, and they spend all day every day in it - I have never once seen anyone speaking to them or riding them - an old man chucks hay in every so often and that's it. They look bored, thin and miserable.

I'd rather be the racehorse thanks.
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well said
 
When you attack a sport because you do not like what you are seeing, consider the bigger picture.
Animal rights activists would nibble away at our sports, at our right to have animals, to have contact with animals. the Extreme is that all animals should run wild and everyone should be a vegitarian, Wont happen?
If a horse comes back with marks the jockey is punished.
The waving of the whip gives the horse the impression that something is coming up beside it, and the ones with the will to win, it digs brings the extra ounce or two of strength up.
the whip, if the horse is wandering can be used to help straighten it, stopping accidents.
The horses that do really well tend to go to stud, although with the market as it is, there are less at stud now as there are more broke people.
 
Oh for god's sake do you not have anything better to do!!! Have you lot actually worked in racing. Go work in a racing yard for 6 months and then tell me whether it should be banned or not.
 
teagreen, thank god for someone talking sense!!

I see much more abuse with whips at riding schools than I see in racing. I see a lot more abuse with spurs and whips out eventing than I do in racing. The use of the whip is so heavily regulated in racing that abuse is not even possible... plus have any of you lot even handled a BHA approved whip? They are incredibly well padded - the most recent ones especially so.

And on the other notes of the general life of a racehorse - it is not just jump horses that get turned out - we turn out most of our flat horses (save a few who don't enjoy being in the field) and they are out in pairs in big fields and left to enjoy a full afternoon out in the sunshine with lush grazing. Our horses are not galloped into the ground - they hack out, they jump little showjumps and they get schooled in the arena - even as flat horses, not jumpers.

Their life is absolute luxury compared to the majority of equines.

We do race 2yos, and yes, it's not something I fully agree with. However, we leave the immature ones until they are mentally and physically equal to the more forward ones. If they start to show signs of not coping with the process they are put on a break for a month or so. Most of our 2yos will run 3-6 times and then be given the winter off to mature - they are not run into the ground. Older horses can have as many problems with bucked shins as 2yos do - many 4/5yo jumpers who have been broken much later will also have problems with sore shins when they are first started on.
 
RachelFerd said:
teagreen, thank god for someone talking sense!!

I see much more abuse with whips at riding schools than I see in racing. I see a lot more abuse with spurs and whips out eventing than I do in racing. The use of the whip is so heavily regulated in racing that abuse is not even possible... plus have any of you lot even handled a BHA approved whip? They are incredibly well padded - the most recent ones especially so.

And on the other notes of the general life of a racehorse - it is not just jump horses that get turned out - we turn out most of our flat horses (save a few who don't enjoy being in the field) and they are out in pairs in big fields and left to enjoy a full afternoon out in the sunshine with lush grazing. Our horses are not galloped into the ground - they hack out, they jump little showjumps and they get schooled in the arena - even as flat horses, not jumpers.

Their life is absolute luxury compared to the majority of equines.

We do race 2yos, and yes, it's not something I fully agree with. However, we leave the immature ones until they are mentally and physically equal to the more forward ones.If they start to show signs of not coping with the process they are put on a break for a month or so. Most of our 2yos will run 3-6 times and then be given the winter off to mature - they are not run into the ground. Older horses can have as many problems with bucked shins as 2yos do - many 4/5yo jumpers who have been broken much later will also have problems with sore shins when they are first started on.
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What?? Banned for a few days or given a suspended ban, so they can continue racing that day or the rest of the meeting. Heavily regulated my arse!!

All 2-year olds are immature!! Or is saying that some are more so than others, a fairy story you like to tell yourself??
 
mighty said:
Youre so right if a jockey abuses his whip he will be punished...
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Yes but after the event and that is where the problem lies, especially with large influential races and race meetings. the stewards room is too late and if as a Jockey you are getting a percentage of the winnings on a big race a few days holiday vs less money can make a difference to your willingness to end up on the carpet.

I was watching the festival today, and I am a life long racing fan but this survey and it's outcome right or wrong has made me look and think long and hard. I think that now is the time for racing to introduce stricter rules of it's own accord, a ban on the use of the whip not the carrying of it or waving it would be a big plus to it's wider public appeal and would make the job of the stewards much more straight forward.

There were several real triers on that run in today and I do think that hands and heals would make for a much better sight than whip use on the run in on horses already clearly giving their all in the toughest of tests.
 
I think that if a Jockey is found guilty of mis-use then the horse should be disqualified, as it stands at the moment the jockey takes the flack but the owners & trainers & punters (& Jockey on %) are not penalised. The jockey is dammed if he does by the stewards/public and dammed if he gets beaten a nose on a favorite and prob jocked off. My OH has been spat at and booed by punters because he didn't beat the bejeesus out of a BF.
 
Interesting subject, but this fact:

The study, which has stirred some debate in Australia, was funded by RSPCA Australia, an animal welfare group that opposes the use of whips in horse racing.
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Just ruins the validity of the research. :mad:
 
Tiny Fluffy Coblet said:
I think a lot of things need to change in racing a long time before we get to use of the whip, that at least is VERY tightly controlled. I don't have a problem with racing in itself but the racing industry...that needs to enter the 21st century.

I find racing 2 year olds unacceptable and I think the training needs to take into account the risks associated with microtrauma and build up the skeletal system more before fast work is started. No youngster should get bucked shins if enough time is taken. I think that the 1st of Jan birthday needs review as it means that some of the later foaled youngsters are barely long yearlings when backed. I think the industry needs to take more responsibility for the fallout and retraining. I think that the feeding regimes (tons of starch in big meals isn't exactly what the horses gut evolved to deal with) and the care (stabling 24/7) needs to be examined and changed.

HOWEVER as long as racing and betting are multi-billion pound industries then money will be the main consideration. Though I believe that it is wrong to keep horses in all the time I can appreciate the terror associated with turning 1/2 a million or more pounds worth of super-fit horseflesh out in the field for a buck and fart. Though on the other hand if they were turned out regularly throughout their lives the risk if them going loopy and injuring themselves would be much lower....
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For my twopen'arth, I mostly agree with the above, especially about two year olds.

In general, I am against the whip - and I would refer all the pro lobby to the descriptions of "torture" used in criticism of say: terrorist suspects - the medja often say these guys have been tortured by being given a stiff talking to so what would you think being thrashed with a whip conjures in public opinion?

The original post article is quite well written and makes no bones about the pros and cons being in dispute quoting folk on both sides of the arguement so posters here do no good to their cause by rubbishing the messenger. One of the biggest problems designing a proper scientific test is the fact that a true test would necessarily involve the same horse running the same race once being whipped and once not in identical conditions - but unfortunately we don't have time machines.

I believe much of the pro whip lobby are motivated by sheer bloody mindedness - similar to all the stuff put up about the wearing or not of crash helmets for riders of horses or motorbikes - the whip has become a symbol of power and status beyond its ultility like a polished stone axe - and I feel will eventually go the same way.
 
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