USEF message after Kentucky: Reactions ?

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See the 5 measures being proposed at the end. Pretty stiff, yet nothing said about education and training. (In the US anyone can decide he/she is a trainer, coach, instructor without the proper credentials/formal training and experience required in Europe)
Yet it shows that some real concern and thinking has grown following thge recent accidents. However, has enough thinking gone into this...?

29 April 2008

Dear Members of the Equestrian Community,

This past weekend at the Rolex Kentucky Three-Day, Laine Ashker suffered a serious fall during the cross-country stage of the competition. She is currently in critical condition at the University of Kentucky hospital in Lexington. Laine's horse and another involved in a separate accident had to be euthanized.

These accidents come just a month after Darren Chiacchia, an Olympic rider, had a serious fall at an event in Tallahassee, Florida. They also come in the wake of a recent article in the New York Times about 15 rider fatalities in cross country that have occurred worldwide over the last two years.

These accidents have hit us hard in the sport of eventing - we are all riders who care deeply about the horses, their welfare and the image of the sport. For us, the issue is also a personal one.

This spate of accidents has raised important and potentially troubling questions for those of us who govern the sport: Why are so many riders and horses having accidents? Is there more that can be done to make cross country safer? Is the sport just too dangerous?

There is no question that eventing is a demanding and yes, risky sport. Riders cross undulating terrain at high speed and jump a series of challenging fences - all while atop a 1,000 pound horse. So there is a constant need for us to ensure that every precaution is being taken to reduce the risk of injury to riders and horses.

Although we have implemented several measures to improve safety over the last year, clearly more needs to be done. In the coming days and weeks, we will be redoubling our efforts to identify additional steps we can take to make sure that riders and horses can compete as safely as possible. We would like to ask your help in this effort - whether you're a rider, trainer, coach, veterinarian, or simply a horse enthusiast.

We invite each and every one of you to the USEF/USEA Safety Summit to be held in Lexington, KY June 7-8. We will break the issue of safety down and examine the causes and potential solutions with some of the best minds in the game. In the meantime, if you have immediate thoughts about how we can improve the safety of cross country, please email them to us at: safetythoughts@usef.org and/or safety@useventing.com.

Over the last few days, we have received emails from people who were at the Rolex event over the weekend and were disturbed by what they saw. They are asking hard questions of us and questioning whether they should continue to support the sport of eventing. To them and to you, we want to say that we too are disturbed by what we see. No matter how much we tell ourselves that injury is a part of our sport, it is always traumatizing to see a horse fall.

Therefore, we are working closely with FEI to do whatever we can to better protect riders and horses and to repair the public image of our sport. We are proposing today that within the U.S. the following five initiatives be put into effect:

If a horse has a rotational fall, horse and rider are suspended from competing for three or six months
If a horse has a rotational fall, horse and rider lose their qualification at the level at which they are competing.
If a rider falls off on the course they are eliminated.
Open oxers on courses at every level are made frangible.
If a horse falls related to a jump both horse and rider are suspended from competing for one month.

We don't have all the answers, we are deeply concerned about what is going on in the sport of eventing and we need your help.

Sincerely,

David O'Connor, USEF President

Kevin Baumgardner, USEA President29 April 2008
 
I'm not sure suspending competing for a month or 6 months due to a fall (how many horses have gone on to have another rotational fall?) is any use.
I think we need to look at if course design/technicality etc has changed, what it was like in the years where nobody died and see if there are any differences.
 
hmm. i think we need more analysis of HOW individuals ride xc. perhaps vids of people competing at A/3* level should be shown to panels of experts before the individuals are allowed to compete at 4*. this might sound draconian, but no-one wants to see the bad, dangerous sights at 4* level... or lower, of course.
fwiw a friend of mine did Boekelo years ago, back when it was considered a 3 1/2 star. her good little horse went clear sort-of despite her, more or less, she was a good jockey but got a bit flustered when the fences were that big tbh. Blyth apparently saw her going xc and asked her trainer whether she was aiming for Badders now. on being told yes, apparently he said simply that she wasn't ready, and shouldn't go (yet). i think the horse wasn't right so she didn't get to go... possibly fortunately in the long run.
my point is that someone very experienced (and there's no shortage of them) can tell whether a rider is really up to it or not... sometimes self-belief and brio and courage are just not enough.
just my twopenneth'worth.
 
Mmm, that's good that they are trying to do something but most of what they are proposing is a little too late! Like for instance "if a horse has a rotational fall horse and rider are suspended for 3-6 months" but the damage to them may be irreperable so a tad too late??
The fence that Frodo Baggins cartwheeled at wasn't an open oxer and I think it was a little freakish that that accident occured, I think the horse actually made the mistake as it seemed to chip in another stride and there was absolutely nothing the rider could have done.

I totally understand the need for something to be done but the question is what? Make the qualifications harder? Horses must have contested more advanced classes and achieved better placings in a quality field? That would be hard to police I guess.
The other question we have to ask is, Why, after eventing has been around for a very long time, is this affecting us so greatly now? How come there were so few, if any, deaths way back when? What is so different?

Just something for everyone's perusal for a Tuesday night
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About your last set of questions, Lou: Was wondering about that...Was it really different back in the old days or is it just today's media exposure, our lower tolerance of the risks (naturally ?) involved, etc...

Way back then when they were just war instruments, riders and horses used to die by the millions and nobody thought anything of it.

Today it's a sport and sport is supposed to be about performance and pleasure...

Other sports statistically claim more victims I believe. But possibly, the fact that an animal is involved gives a whole different dimension to equestrian sports as animal rights have grown into a major national issue in most nations.

All dangerous sports (incl. equestrianism) have made huge progress in developing safety for their human athletes. What else should be done besides raising riders awareness and respect of their horses. A good example is public opinion further to The Samurai/AT problem. Did it not spark more debate than any of the riders deaths in recent years ???
 
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Why, after eventing has been around for a very long time, is this affecting us so greatly now? How come there were so few, if any, deaths way back when? What is so different?

Just something for everyone's perusal for a Tuesday night.
I think this is a real interesting point. These days I only follow eventing from some distance, but somewhere in my distant memory I seem to remember a quote from (I am pretty sure) Ginny Elliot.
She said that it was her opinion that eventing was getting to dependant on good dressage scores. She also feared that this would lead to many people buying different types of horses to improve the scores of the 1st phase & also many riders would train for better dressage scores. Also when the steeplechase phase was taken from the format she again believed that people would be even more concerned with dressage scores. Ultimately, she suspected that many horses would be eventing that would not have survived in her day X Country. The reason was that the type of horse/training that would be used could possibly be so tuned in to rider aids for dressage that they would forget to think for themselves as they would be so reliant on the rider. I believe she used the term "would not have the 5th leg required to get out of trouble". I am sure I have not quoted this word for word but it is the general gist of the comments made. So what do we think. Is she on the right track with her gut feeling?
 
Regarding the suggesiton of videoing people,
how many people who have recently died has anyone thought were dangerous before they fell? How do you decide which method of riding is dangerous?
I'll use an example-Oli Townend had several falls last year people said from riding too fast, yet no-one says he is at risk of rotationals. Is it not the case that many who die seem to be either pros riding youngsters (or pros at big events) or youngish riders at 1/2* level?
 
Having a horse on a Advanced level i got to say that it is too easy too qualify and now when BE is allowing 12 year olds to compete they are asking for a disaster.I also think that it is the media high lighting the situation,We have been to an average of 15 events per season over the last 6 years and there has only been 2 fatal accidents at the events that we have been to ( Hambledon 2006 horse had a heart attack and Iping 2005 where a horse flipped over a corner and broke it back ) They got to stop the accident happening not punish them AFTER when its too late
 
Is it not also the case that the fences have gotten bigger nowadays ? I'm fairly sure that in the old days the x-c at Badminton used to be a maximum 1.20m whereas now it is 1.25m/1.30m
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Add that to the points Freshman has already made about the different sorts of horses now being evented and you have a mix that could cause problems.

I remember back in the early eighties there were a spate of bad falls at Hunter Trials in our area...several riders died or were paralysed...including one at Firle. Those accidents led to the implementation of optimum times or timed sections at HT's. Perhaps they need to re-look at the speed element of modern day eventing again and find some way to slow it down a bit.

Or perhaps they should replace traditional x-c with jumpcross.......
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Is it not also the case that the fences have gotten bigger nowadays ? I'm fairly sure that in the old days the x-c at Badminton used to be a maximum 1.20m whereas now it is 1.25m/1.30m
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Add that to the points Freshman has already made about the different sorts of horses now being evented and you have a mix that could cause problems.


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The xc is still only 1.20, it hasnt changed.

I think a lot of horse falls I've seen can be blamed on the rider coming in at excessive speed for the type of fence. If you give the horse time to judge the question then the likelihood it will judge it wrong decreases. Almost as bad is nasty hooky, interrupted rythym which some riders employ and this also causes falls but generall not these dramatic flips which kill horse and rider.

I think it's sensible to cancel the horse's qualification at that level after a HF. I also think that 2 eliminations xc at that level and they should have to re-qualify.
 
ducking for cover here but I'll say it anyway.

another factor 'way back when' was that the horses going XC were mainly genuinely hunted (following on from Ginny Leng quote and comment about 5th leg)

Now they are too valuable and too used to working on artificial surfaces most of the time for many of them to see a hunting field or even be schooled at home on grass or SJumped on grass outside of competition.
 
Interesting point of discussion me thinks. I do agree that the horses are becoming to a point more disciplined which is not necessarily a bad thing, but they are becoming more questionning of their rider for 'decisions'. How many 'xc machines' are also good at the dressage phase. Nothing against dear MDM's Ernie cause he is gorgoeus but he is an XC machine eating up his courses but he struggles with settling for dressage. I bet MDM would say he had that '5th leg'.

Another thing that comes to mind is the riders. with the horsey world being commercial these days to a degree anyone can buy themselves through the levels if they have a bit of ability and enough money to buy the right horses. I know not everyone no matter how good the horse will be able to go all the way up, but riders who in days gone by would have never got past novice are now going advanced with the right horses. In my opinion there are riders who do not have the knowledge or ability to ride XC courses which are becoming increasingly more technical at the level they are riding.

Not to be funny but Burghley last year, how many people rode that half coffin apallingly? answer an awful lot because seemingly the good old 'coffin canter' hadn't been taught or had been totally forgotten, not the best sign of a supposed 4* rider!!
 
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ducking for cover here but I'll say it anyway.

another factor 'way back when' was that the horses going XC were mainly genuinely hunted (following on from Ginny Leng quote and comment about 5th leg)

Now they are too valuable and too used to working on artificial surfaces most of the time for many of them to see a hunting field or even be schooled at home on grass or SJumped on grass outside of competition.

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NO, you're not alone; I so agree with you!

I'm also of the personal view that abolishing the steeplechase and endurance phases have done nothing but harm, both for the sport and for the horses. If one of those sections had to go due to space retsraints then the endurance phase at least should have been kept. It is the best means of warming up and settling a horse before a big XC run there is, far better than a few poxy circles can ever be. It also means riders have to learn to judge pace and speed properly and to pace their horse accordingly; they also get a feel for the ground conditions better than just walking around a course on their own feet.
I also feel that horses years ago were so much fitter and better trained for the job plus more mentally suitable (probably very debatable for some of you I know!) and the pressure now to have marvellous dressage scores is immense, so in consequence the horses aren't allowed the freedom of being allowed to find their own rhythm enough.
The horses now,know they do the boring bit then wooppee, they get to party next - which now, is before they are settled and have had the jitterbugs taken out of them by a decent endurance phase; not so they were already knackered before the start of XC, but they would have been in a better healthy state of mind. Abolishing those sections was a very backward step in my view.

It would be interesting to be able to compare (watch two screens side by side?) one after the other videos of people like Lucinda, Ginny, Toddy and Mark Phillips through a whole competition in those days alongside the likes of Pippa, AN, Blythe, Oli T etc now and what differences there were, both to the courses and the way they are ridden. I purposely haven't mentioned MK as I personally feel she is 'old school' enough from her original training that she would have fitted in with the Lucinda/Ginny section very well!
I now wait to be shot down in flames and told I'm talking through my a*se!
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I agree that qualification should be revoked if you have a horse fall. I also think you should be forced to drop down a level if you are eliminated more than twice xc at that level unless its a TE.

I disagree about the dressage and xc. I think its about the rider. My horse can always find a 5th leg because he has to as I am crap. If the rider or previous riders get it right 98% of the time they never need to get themselves out of trouble. This is where I think OT suffers. He normally gets it right but when he does not his horses have not got a clue about how to sort themselves out. Tom Cruise was a classic at Badminton. Pippa Funnells horses cannot think for themselves as she is a very dictating rider even doing xc.
 
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ducking for cover here but I'll say it anyway.

another factor 'way back when' was that the horses going XC were mainly genuinely hunted (following on from Ginny Leng quote and comment about 5th leg)

Now they are too valuable and too used to working on artificial surfaces most of the time for many of them to see a hunting field or even be schooled at home on grass or SJumped on grass outside of competition.

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I for one also agree with you. We sold a young horse about 9 / 10 yrs ago that went to a young upcoming event rider (who was advised by an older well know eventer to to purchase this particular horse). I regreted it after, by the time it was rising 8 it was advanced, hammered through the ranks. He lost confindence on the xc but was pushed on and on. I was very fond of the horse and suggested time out and fun things like hunting to get his confidence back. I was told in no uncertain manner that Quote "I will NEVER hunt and eventer, it makes them careless", I asked where she got this barmy idea from and she said her trainer (well know B. Team rider). In the end the horse was sold onto a foreign rider and had a happier and easier life thank goodness.

The statements about always being worked on surface must play a part in the horse loosing some of it's instinctive ability on an irregular grass surface.

Someone also mentioned young riders now "buying" their way up the ranks and I do sadly see this happening. Again one such rider went out huting a few years ago and I remember being faced with a large'ish hedge and ditch which she point blank refused to point her horse at as it was "too tall and wide"!!!! For goodness sake this was someone who has bought an advanced horse. She also refused to attempt a nice large post and rail as it was too big. As she said MCUH bigger than something she would come across eventing. Speechless.

Hunting - (Yes the Wynnstay country is the best MFH) gives a horse the confidence to THINK for itself. When I was eventing and show jumping (many many moons ago) it was the starting point for all our horses and ponies, even the show ponies hunted for heavens sake.

Now the whole raising of youngstock to maturity has changed, many (NOT all before I get shot down in flames) are coddled from day one and I feel sometimes loose their independant spirit and they are totally dependant on the human as rider to guide them.

Look at the courses now, there is so so much more happening on course, at the side of the fences, decoration on and around the fences than you saw even 10 - 15 yrs ago. I do wonder if at times it takes the horses eye away from the actual fence for a split second. Maybe a very obvious ground pole line for every upright would help?

And anyone out there know the statistics for rotational falls in Team Chasing? I have lost touch with the scene having not done it for over 6 yrs now. We used to get some good solid uprights, and for those who say speed into an upright causes rotational falls has obviously never team chased!
 
I agree about "back in the old days".

Now the riders get a good dressage horse and train it to go cross country. In the "old days" they got a good cross country horse and trained it to do dressage. Practically all horses went hunting as a matter of course before eventing.

This didn't apply completely though, as the continental riders didn't go hunting, but they were probably the exceptionally good riders who really could train a horse correctly (anyone read Andrody(sp), the Hungarian who taught the current Duke of Beaufort?).

Although the authorities are constantly saying that riders should be better trained, etc. etc. the fact is that it isn't the inexperienced riders being badly hurt or even killed, it is the riders with years of experience.

I used to event in an extremely modest way at Novice. But I don't recall many serious accidents and that was before back protectors even.

People used to fall off horses and break bones, but I can't understand why now people fall off horses and get killed.
 
There is something wrong somwhere. It is just finding out what. As over the years deaths have increased but so has H & S, riding hat standards have improved, body protectors, frangible pins, etc...
There has to be something that is going wrong. But then I do not know how people also seem to exspect that there will be no deaths from eventing.
Accidents do happen. In fact more people die by their wardrobes then by eventing related deaths.
In 2004, 6,121 people died in relation to a veichle. Does this mean that all veichles should be banned?
11,232 died of an accident (not including the above).
3,010 died of a fall that is extra to the accident numbers.

I honestly do not know how to make it safer.
Yes you can make qualifying harder but alot of the deaths have been top riders not your hobby weekend competeter. So if they do not know what they are doing then there is something wrong.
I do not know if the banning for so many months would work as is that just with that horse or the rider full stop? If the rider than your pro's will be stuffed.
Should the combination go for assessment??
 
i totally agree with lec. it's about the rider, not the horses. if the rider is a bit hit and miss, as most of us apart from the very best are, the horse learns at the lower levels that it has to use its brain cos sometimes the person on top gets it wrong.
the emphasis on "seeing a stride" rather than on getting a good balanced canter or gallop and letting the horse jump the fence out of that rhythm, making slight adjustments if necessary as it gets to the fence, has been the worst thing about the sport in recentish years imho.
that and the huge additional emphasis on the dressage, which means that the horses are used to being micro-managed and obedient, and not using their initiative at all.
the huge pressure from sponsors, the fact that the whole sport is much more professional, prize money at the top is so much more significant etc etc, means that riders are chasing harder for the big prize.
there is also the fact that, coupled with the emphasis on obedience from the horse, and the lack of encouraging its initiative, courses have gotten much more technical, and the combinations come up much more quickly, giving less time to correct/reassure/put the wheels back on after a slight xc whoopsie. there are lots of riders who really aren't of top level yet, trying to get the times that the very best do... without being dangerous, it really isn't possible for most. just because Nicholson and co can make it look easy, doesn't mean it's advisable for less experienced riders to go at that speed. this is one of the best and worst things about our sport - yes, we amateurs get to compete against the best of the best, and that's unique, but the fact is that if i got in a F1 car and got to do a few laps, no WAY would i expect to be lapping at the speed of Jenson Button etc etc.. but a lot of less experienced riders seem to think that they can go at top speed.
i think doing away with the Steeplechase was a big forward step, i always hated it, but making the number of XC efforts per distance higher was a backward step. more time between fences, a few more let up fences, would seriously help, i believe.
 
Like many other people I've been reading and thinking a great deal about this the last few days and I agree, it's likely not a single factor it's a collection of factors. As far as the "old days", well, we've moved on so the question is what can we do to improve things as they are, to go forward more safely.

I would agree that rider education is an issue. In some cases it's just people not knowing but in others I think it's people under pressure to do things as quickly and as cheaply as possible, taking risks to get ahead. If they are simply prevented from taking those risks - if they can say to their owner/parent/coach "It's not me not being willing to take a risk, it's me not being allowed to take a silly risk," it might help in some situations. If the reputation of the sport is at stake perhaps people's individual rights have to be sublimated to the greater good.

One thing I have not heard mentioned (I thought I was imagining it) but ties in with the "dressage horse going xc" idea . . . are there not a lot more horses these days that jump with their legs tight but their forearms below horizontal, in a very round form. almost jumping over their shoulders a bit? They are often VERY scopey - many successful show jumpers jump this way - but I was taught in my youth that a horse that regularly jumps with it's forearms low is not a suitable horse for riding cross country. Horses that hang their cannons with the leg loose (forearm still horizontal), not AS big a deal (especially as many tighten up as they go higher and/or jump fixed fences) although obviously high and tight is the safest way to go.

As I said, there are many good showjumping sires that produce horses that jump like this (perhaps not the top class ones but on an average) that can still jump a big jump. They are often clean, round, precise showjumpers. Horses that have the loose, swinging movement and big trots that win tests at the lower levels now (real GP horse don't usually move like that but then they rarely win novice tests) tend to jump like that. (Horse that are very quick in front often trot like sewing machines. A few on Lucinda's come to mind . . .) Horses that are so inclined and are also heavy in the hand tend to jump more like that. (People seem to be more okay with horses heavy in the hand now, so long as they LOOK superficially okay in a test.) Horse that have been trained to look down at what they jump, not forward, tend to jump more like that. Are we taking horses with a tendency and then not doing anything to mitigate it? Are the things we breed and school for sometimes (not always, obviously) creating a situation that seems to go well until it goes very wrong?

Am I imagining this? I've spent the last couple of days looking at photos, old and new, and I don't think I am. I've asked a few other people and met with some surprised faces. I've seen a couple of articles now on up and comers with highly touted prospects that jump like that and no one mentions it.

What happens to a horse with a TENDENCY (it's not what the horse does after training and/or when everything is okay, it's what it does in the crunch that's important) to jump with tight legs and low knees when it hits a jump at speed . . .?

I'm just curious. I'm not that old but I remember horsemen I admired being quite adamant about never going cross country on a horse that didn't jump looking forward with it's knees out in front of it.
 
i'd totally agree with that, TarrSteps. i would NEVER ride a horse xc which did not have a natural jumping style that = knees up. forearms dangling can be sorted later, but low knees, even if the parabola is high, is a recipe for total disaster... and, as you say, when it comes to the crunch, they revert to their natural jumping style.
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i haven't noticed the trend, but then i've not been to many events in the last few years.
 
This is a very interesting debate.

I do not event, I tried and failed at the lowest of levels... Horse didn't do ditches.

Anyway - my initial thoughts are

Horses definately used to come from a hunting background and had to think for themselves.
Fences resembled to a larger extent, those fences found out hunting.
XC phase is now a galloping show jumping course, where a horse doesn't tend to jump at speed, but has to regroup and jump a much more technical type fence or combination than in the past.
More warmblood horses who are more of the Dressage type (heavier and more expressive leg movements)
Not sure about the rider qualification - was it not in last weeks H&H where it showed how many more points you need now, than you did even 5 yrs ago to qualify for Badminton????
Horses may tire more easily as not as much TB in them, and surely it's more tiring galloping and regrouping for such technical fences, and then galloping again? Very stop start.
Definately the ground has something to do with it. Grass areas for schooling @ home are no longer common and seem to cause issues in the dressage phase esp.

I too would like to see a direct comparison of 'new and old' on video. I truley believe that increased media, dropping of the long format XC, a larger influence of Dressage, and people able to buy good horses, had combined to make the sport more dangerous.

Having said that - I keenly attend demo's that are in aid of the Claire Lomas Walk Fund. She was left paralysed through a freak accident on the 'flat'! She and horse had a disagreement about which way around a tree they should go, and she went into the tree, leaving her in a wheel chair. So freak accidents can happen, and the more we nanny things the worse things get.

Bring back the old days, carry on hunting (bring it back), and perhaps look at hte good things that hte old days brought and bring them back into play.....

Bx
 
Tarr Steps, That is a very thoughtful post, and not something I had considered, only having limited experience, but I think you could be onto something there.

What alarms me is that is mostly the EXPERIENCED rider who is having the accidents, I won't list them, we can remember the names. It isn't Mrs. Hopeless and her Lets Try It horse, mostly, well not more than in the past.

As for getting rid of the steeplechase - well there have been accidents at one day events as well as 3 day events.

I think there will always be the horse that goes "a over t" because the rider galloped it at an upright fence and didn't give it a chance, but hopefully that WOULDN'T be what you would call an experienced rider.
 
There are so many things that come to mind after reading this thread, so apologies if I just put this down as it comes to me, therefore it won't be as well written as many of the other replies.
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I was a late starter to eventing and have seen so many changes since I began 16 years ago. The whole sport has become so much more professional that the best have got better and better, and course designers have needed to find ways of making each course challenging enough so that it's not just a dressage competition. How can you build a flowing course that challenges the accuracy and boldness of horses, without turning it into 10 minutes of kicking and hooking? I certainly wouldn't want to be a course designer. You need a horse that moves beautifully and is trainable, is a careful showjumper and yet still bold and accurate cross country: event horses come in all shapes and sizes but I do wonder if there are some square pegs trying to be put into round holes, but through being trained to the nth degree they can still get to a high level.

The popularity of the sport and the amount of money being spent seems to have opened it up to a lot of people who otherwise would not have been deemed capable, or been able to afford a horse capable of affiliated level eventing, but in the old days they would have been happy to stay at Riding Club level. I have seen unbalanced horses and riders going at a speed that scares me (the word "breakneck" came to mind, but seemed inappropriate), with little regard for how certain fences should be ridden, and while they get away with it, more by luck than judgement, they can move up the levels. I do wonder whether there should be some test before you are allowed to compete so that a rider with oodles of confidence and a clever horse doesn't get ahead of his/her level of experience too quickly. Speed kills, and no matter how athletic or experienced your horse is, if you're pushing to make the time with adrenaline pumping round your body, your judgement may be less measured, yet your very well trained and very honest horse will do what you've asked it to do to the best of its ability.

Once last thing, whilst I'm pro hunting and can see the benefits to both horse and rider, I think training can achieve the same end result. We need more Lucinda Greens to teach the basics before people are let loose on cross country courses!
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i'd agree with all that Baydale says.
i'll also stick my neck out and say that the standard of riding of some at the lower levels is frankly frightening, some of these riders should be doing gridwork with no stirrups or reins (as they used to make us do back in the old days!), not attempting to ride some poor unsuspecting horse over fixed fences.
but, and it's a big but, as someone said earlier in the thread, these aren't the people who are getting killed.
probably because the fences are so much smaller and less technical, you can make truly diabolical mistakes at Intro, PN, even N and most reasonably clever and athetic horses can get you out of it. (i made 3 xc mistakes PN last week and the horses just easily covered for me, thank heavens... in case anyone thinks i'm sounding holier-than-thou or whatever!)
but at Intermediate and above, the height of the fences, the length of the courses, the increased speed, all combine to lower the margin of error. really good horses which think on their feet and are athletic will still get you out of jail (and don't i know it!), but that sort of horse tends not to be so biddable for the dressage, so isn't favoured so much...
i think we perhaps need xc riding tests before riders can compete at Intermediate and above, not just the "4 clears at N" rule.
i'd also suggest much more stringent qualifications for 4 star - say, that the rider and horse (individually) must have done 4 ***s clear xc (one day or 3 day), at least 2 of them together. i know this will make it harder for 1-horse riders to get there, but so be it. also, video footage of the combination going xc in the last 3 months at A level or above to be submitted to a panel of experts for deliberation. if that sounds too stringent, i apologise!
 
On the subject of experienced riders falling with horrifying consequences more often than us lesser folk, there might be a couple of "causes" there. (Identifying causes doesn't necessarily lead directly to solutions, but it's all part of trying to separate what's important from what's not.)

One, the stakes are higher the higher up you go. As kerilli says, there are lots of people making huge mistakes at the lower levels but they rarely die as a result - the speeds are slower, the jumps are lower, and the horses have a chance to make it up.

Two, I think there is an increasing trend for people to want to ride their horses rather than watch them go. There used to be a great deal of pressure to match extra special horses with talented riders, especially if the horse was quirky or difficult in some way. Because of the structure of the sport in the past - higher starting level, mandatory upgrading, fewer events etc. - there were fewer opportunities for people to persevere and much more social pressure to pass along a good horse, especially if it wasn't going as well as everyone else thought it should. I'm not saying this was right or good but it is certainly not the case anymore. Obviously people should be able to do as they like but I wonder if this means more people being overhorsed while those same horses are not available to the top end pool or riders.

I think professionals are under A LOT more pressure now. They show more, the stakes are higher, everything happens faster, people - owners and riders - are less likely to just be in it for the fun of it. They often *have* to ride horses they maybe wouldn't given the choice because they're owned by someone who owns their top ride, or the horse is for sale, or they have to sort it out - maybe they shouldn't ignore their little voice but there is a great deal of pressure to do so. Especially in the case of competing stallions for approval, marketing etc. it's almost a cliche now for people to persevere past good sense.

I'm not saying these things are the reason for the falls, only that they go to a general outlook. People get used to things and when they do they stop heeding the warning that comes with strangeness. If we're used to seeing horses that are too green or don't jump that well or people who are overmounted or lacking in preparation or riding so many horses they don't know whether they're coming or going (or jumps that aren't safe - anything) then we don't see it as a problem anymore. Even if we do think there must be a tipping point - a critical mass of causes - in there somewhere we continue to think it's some way down the track.
 
that's an interesting point, that mandatory upgrading used to make it more difficult for people to ride their own horses etc... of course. i never thought of that. the last time i had a horse at Advanced, there was no ON, let alone OPN. in fact, a lot of top riders deliberately went slowly xc on their very promising young horses at N level in order to avoid getting 21 points and putting the horse irrevocably into Intermediate classes... probably did the horses a LOT of good, too, in the long run. now points = prizes = value on the horse, points for rider towards league table (or whatever it's called) etc etc.
yes, lots to think about there.
i'm going to have a good ponder on that one!
 
I think that both YOU and Baydale have nailed down some of the crucial points involved, not as sole causes but certainly as heavily weighing into the issues at hand today. Which goes back to my initial point: I don't believe that the 5 measures proposed by the USEF are sound and sensible answers to the problem of training, practice, qualification and overall realistic approach to a discipline where money has become the sole factor instead of competence, skill and experience.
 
I think qualification criteria need to be looked at, for example a horse I sold to USA has done only 8 intermediates, 3 2* (2 with 20 penalties) 2 advanced, 2 3* (with 20 penalties) and he is in effect qualified for 4* and the olympics. Can that be right, he is still quite green and of low milage. In my opinion he would not have nearly enough experience to compete at that level
 
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