USEF message after Kentucky: Reactions ?

Perfect illustration of what I believe and that's only the horse end of it. The rider end of it in the US is shocking when you see some of the riders expecting and actually having a go at Advanced, 3*, etc... It's kind of free for all over there, which makes the USEF proposals even more irrelevant and irresponsible in attempt to remedy the problem of fatal accidents in eventing.
Let's not forget this is a partnership-based sport... If the talent and skills of horse aren't matched by their equivalent in the rider, you can't win and may die...
 
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Can that be right, he is still quite green and of low milage. In my opinion he would not have nearly enough experience to compete at that level.

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memo, you think like that but the rider/owner of the horse may not. An experienced rider (I'm thinking Andrew Nicholson for whatever reason
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) would be likely to get a horse like that round a 4 star, but you only have to look at his longevity in the sport and experience at that level to see the difference between him achieving that and a lesser rider "having a go" and maybe not making such a success of it. I hope whoever bought the horse from you makes a level-headed and well thought out decision as to when it may be right to run at 4 star level.

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Let's not forget this is a partnership-based sport... If the talent and skills of horse aren't matched by their equivalent in the rider, you can't win and may die...

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blackeventer that is a sobering thought. The partnership should be strong and you should be aware of your horse's strengths and weaknesses. Whilst there is always the chance of the unexpected happening, if you have dotted the i's and crossed the t's in your training then surely you are reducing the chances of anything going wrong.

I am your original amateur rider, yet have been lucky enough to get half way round Badminton: I thought my horse was a bit nervous or that the muggy weather that day didn't suit him; in fact his bloods were so out of kilter that I was lucky to get that far, and clear to that point! When he stopped at a simple triple bar over a ditch I knew there was something wrong; had my ambition been greater or my adrenaline pumping harder, I could have carried on and perhaps become another statistic.
 
I raised the removal of mandatory upgrading on another board and was met with a resounding "huh?". This did bring home to me how many people competing now have little or no knowledge of the history of the sport. So many of one's attitudes are shaped by one's trainers, heroes and peers in one's youth . . . I wonder if we are now increasingly getting to the group that didn't start under the old rules.

Mandatory upgrading on points was always a bit of a scary prospect but I agree, I think it kept many people safer in a counter-intuitive sort of way! As kerilli mentioned experienced people used to purposefully "coddled" their promising young horses, trying to keep them at the initial level longer. Riders had the spectre of being upgraded in front of them, as did their coaches - if you were just squeaking through, however successfully, you were going to end up in trouble when you were forced to move up. No going on and on, getting by on luck and a good dressage score.

My previous point about passing on horses - if you didn't want to upgrade on a horse with sufficient points you either rode in the few Open classes or passed/sold the horse on. (There was also a lot more social pressure to do this. If people thought you weren't doing your horse justice they often weren't shy about saying it!)

When I started eventing (in Canada, more than 20 years ago) the bottom level did not include mandatory upgrading. You could play in the shallow end forever.:) But once you took that first step into the "real" levels you were on the treadmill - if you did well the horse was going to move up to Intermediate and there was no going back. This meant people thought a great deal harder about that first step. (I remember distinctly getting a bad distance to an Intermediate oxer and thinking, "Uh oh, THIS is why everyone has been screaming at me to not leave off the long one!" Up to that point my horse was talented enough to get over if we left from the same postal code!) That low level panic and necessity to think and plan ahead was a good thing, if you ask me.

I don't think it's necessarily counter to the idea of more stringent criteria for moving up either. No one should be moving up with a "spotty history" or with a history of major xc problems until there is proof it's been sorted. In quite a few of the tragic cases the horse HAVE had a history of problems and/or moved up extremely quickly. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect people to show a recent, consistent record of success (not just placings) before taking the next step.
 
Yes, interesting letter but her 4 resolutions just go to show that she's finally ready to face the demands of eventing: Education and training again and again, as an ongoing lifetime pre-requisite to achieve that level of judgement and clairvoyance which eventually helps the riders to listen to their horse and accept that threshold beyond which they will be putting both rider's and horse's life at risk.

BAYDALE's account of her experience at Badminton is a beautiful and remarkable illustration of intelligent riding backed up by the relevant training...
Baydale, IMO your decision to stop half way around the course forces the same admiration and respect I would have for a completed and successful (meaning well ridden) clear round.
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further random thoughts:
One of the biggest luxuries that most of us amateur riders enjoy is that the pressure on us is only that of our own making. If we are riding our own horse, for ourselves, we do not have an owner or sponsor to satisfy. If I go to an event and my horse doesn't feel 100%, i can just withdraw and wait to find out what the problem is. I've done this lots of times, btw... i've also been lucky enough to have a very very unpushy back-up team: a mother who insists it should always be "fun" more than anything else, for example, and who is more amazed than anything if i ever do come home with a rosette! my former partner, who groomed for me when i was doing the big stuff, never ever pressurised me at all... even when we drove 8 hours to A events on consecutive weekends and i didn't run at either of them because of the ground!
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Sponsored riders, or those riding for owners and in the limelight, do not have this luxury. it takes a LOT of self-belief to say "something's not right, even though it's not visible, so i won't run"... when you are the pyramid of, say, 10 or 20 people working to get you to the event. also, in the current climate where top horses seem to get passed from rider to rider like monopoly money (certain owners spring particularly to mind) the pressure to keep the rides must be huge. i know of one former top rider who had this attitude, did what he thought was right for the horse, not what the owner wanted every time, who wouldn't run if the ground was hard, etc etc, who has not been at the top for quite a while now... and it's not down to lack of talent.
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if i got the ride on one of those top horses, perhaps in my desperation to keep the ride, i might change my attitudes and go all-out for a win too. i probably would have in my teens or twenties... hopefully i'm experienced enough now that sense would prevail no matter what, and i'd never turn deaf to my instincts.
reading Laine's blog of the last few months, her determination to get to the Olympics, her drive and ambition, shine through. A top placing, a fast clear xc at Rolex Kentucky, were essential for that dream to have a chance of becoming reality. having watched the side-on view, speed was definitely a factor - even if the youtube vid was playing back slightly fast, she didn't take a pull even though she was on a horrible misser of a stride. every pull = a second lost, you know... we've all been told it.
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i go back to my previous point - young, not-terribly-experienced riders are trying to go xc at the same speed as the big boys and girls. it's ridiculous. given time and experience, i'm sure many will be able to (after all, even some of our 'greats' looked a bit ropey their first time or two round the 4*s, if it isn't heresy to say so!), but to expect it their first time, and/or on a horse that's having its first run at that level, is crazy.
i believe that the 4*s should be split, with a "professional" and "amateur" class, the xc time being slower for the latter class. it would be difficult to decide into which category to put some riders - there will always be the odd supremely classy jockey like Harry Meade who rides beautifully and composedly around his first few 4*s, but there are many many others who really don't hold it together that well.
if i got there, i'd be over the moon to get to ride round, i wouldn't really care that i was running in a slightly different class to the big boys and girls, and i think a lot of riders would say the same thing. perhaps the old Little Badminton and Big Badminton classes were the right way to do it after all...
 
A bit my point, actually, especially since it's been seen fit to include on the USEA website. I think it is a well written and pertinet letter but I wonder how many people are only thinking about that sort of thing NOW, because of the problems and the coverage!? Aren't these things to think about every time one gets on a horse, no matter what the pursuit?
 
Great letter, and possibly summing up what is being discussed here.

I'm going to go agaist the grain a bit tho', and say that I think there could be too much training. Some of the young riders killed, and to an extent this has become more obvious to me here watching the French riders, are trained to the extent that pretty much all their experience is in an arena, or under supervision XC training.
In the dark ages when I evented, there was very little training going on, certainly at the grass roots levels, and the first affiliated level you could compete at was novice. Your craft was learned either hunting, or going round the riding club circuit, where you had to deal with some scary distances, going and fences. What that did was teach you to have that extra 'seat of your pants ability', if you felt it going wrong, you had a toolbox to call on to try and rectify the situation. Even if it meant grabbing a hold of your horse to shorten him into a fence (currently a no-no in the XC training thoughts nowadays) rather tham meet it smack in the middle of a stride.
I am not for a minute suggesting that training is a bad thing, but it should not be replacing basic instinctive riding skills, it should be enhancing them. The top riders have mostly ridden difficult, rejected or unwanted horses at some point in their histories to get where they are today, and dealing horses has had to be part of their means of funding their careers. That has given them the insight and gut feeling to know when it's going pear shaped, and how to deal with it. I don't think that is happening as much today with some of the wealthier American and British riders.
I also agree totally with the remarks quoted from Ginny Leng. Improving your dressage will always affect your other phases. If you teach a horse to be featherlight responsive on the flat, even through the adrenalin of XC he could still easily overreact to an overly strong aid or command when going XC.
The steeplechase phase also got the horse sufficiently warmed up and in a rhythm so that when the solid fences came up, their minds were fully focussed on the job ahead. I appreciate the injury attrition rate of that phase gave cause for concern (that could be addressed by better maintenance of the tracks), but it did have it's positive side. Maybe a shorter less taxing A, B and C phase could be introduced. That however, would not have changed the outcome of some of the casualties.
I was present at one of the high profile ones in the year five riders were killed, and it was entirely rider error, caused by going far too fast.
It is terribly sad, but ambition should not ever supercede capability, either of horse or rider, whther that be restricted through injury or lack of talent.
I like the idea of reintroducing the compulsory step up. It makes sense to allow a horse (and rider) to learn the job. If I remember correctly, often what happened was the horses that upgraded to intermediate after three novice wins, were either sold on to better riders, or learned to stop.
I don't think the USEF plans will do any good at all. A ban will not help riders improve.

It's a very difficult topic, there are so many variables, but my heart goes out to all those that have lost family, friends or horses.
 
Good points kerilli. I think you and I are old school in that we would nurture our horses in the hope that they would last longer, stay sound and be better performers through being carefully produced. As you say, many riders are under pressure and perhaps society's want-it-now and throwaway attitude extends to our horses sadly. I was very lucky with the horse I mentioned previously: I assumed he was the horse of a lifetime and I would never find another, therefore it was in my best interests to look after him. For me the fun is in the journey, not just the arrival, but then I'm not having to make a living from the sport.

That's a great idea to split Badminton into Pro and Am sections at Badminton, I just wouldn't want to be the one to decide who fell into each category!
 
yes, that's the other thing... as amateurs/privateers, we don't have the luxury of having 20 other horses to ride and owners queuing up to send us their super talented horses. i nurtured my A mare because i knew how exceptional she was, how lucky i was to have her at all, and that i might never ever get another as good.
if i had to make a living from the sport, i too might ride differently.
 
Yes but as an amateur you would no longer get into Badminton. Badminton is a premier event and I think by diluting it would be pointless.

Watching RC the other day I was shocked at a lot of the teaching on offer. How can the rider get better if the trainers at local level are frankly not up to scratch? Not everyone can afford lessons with a BE trainer and so use local BHSAI who do not have a clue.

I taught in USA for 2 summers and one of the main differences I found was that the USA kids were totally confident about their abilities and yet it was very rare that their opinion of their ability and mine matched. I wonder if this confidence gets carried through into competition?
 
Another thought apropos of that letter . . . it seems to have gone out of fashion to scare people! I can remember all sorts of coaches, TDs and other experienced parties taking me to task over the risk of hurting/killing myself or my horse or ruining my talented horse if I didn't improve as quickly as I could. It wasn't very pleasant but it did keep me thinking!

Now I had a very nice horse and was somewhat serious so perhaps I came in for more of it but I also remember it happening to other young riders. Now it's considered "bad form" or discouraging to people to point out that xc is very risky and maybe their fears are based in fact not lack of confidence!

Perhaps it's the internet! People feel shaky and they have a ready made group of people who have never seen them ride telling them that it's all good and have a go. (I'm not saying specifically this is a factor in some of the recent injuries and deaths, again just to a general way of thinking coming up through the ranks.) I remember expressing fears to the people I admired and being told things like, "Well, yes, if you will take off like that at the coffin of course your heart is in your mouth! Fix it and you'll feel better." The real cure for thinking you might not have the skills is to go out and get better ones!

Don't get me wrong, people were also encouraging. But people who saw the riders and knew what they were about. It's a numbers game and largely subconscious - if there are ten people saying you're fine and one saying you're not it's human nature (even if it's not sensible) to go with the ten.
I'm not saying people shouldn't be nervous. It's part of sport and extra important when real risk is involved to be "up" for it. I'm saying that maybe people who are anxious at the lower levels shouldn't be told to "have a go", they should be packed off to a clinic and made to do whatever it is that's making them nervous again and again until they can do more than they will ever need to in competition.
 
Yes, i agree with that too, it's all part of the don't-criticise-anyone-it's-not-politically-correct bulls*** that prevails nowadays, unfortunately.
XC riding is dangerous. you can kill yourself and your horse around an Intro, if you're unlucky enough. perhaps we need to be stressing that a bit more, not this "you'll be fine" thing... well, not always, and of course it's fine for the person saying that, who isn't risking their neck...
not really related, just another stray thought or two:
i can remember seeing an absolute flying stride to the last fence at my very first BE event, as a teenager. i knew my mare very well, she loved going on a long one, we'd had a great round, it was a steeplechase-type fence, i saw a great one a long way out, and we flew it. a friend's sour-faced and very critical mother later attempted to take me to task about it, saying "never ever ride at a fence that way again" etc etc... well, tbh i politely shrugged her off, i'd seen my stride and ridden it and the horse had responded magnificently, so i really couldn't see what her problem was.
that's the trouble, i guess. it all comes down to feel (or lack of), and experience (or lack of) and luck (or terrible lack of.)
should i have listened to her? possibly.
have i arrived at fences in that way since? on occasion, on a horse that i know very well, who is jumping very well for me. not exactly deliberately, but sometimes that's the stride that's there.
i rode the last fence at Hartpury Intermediate the same way years later, on my really good mare. she flew it. Carolyn Todd saw me later and said how wonderful my mare was, how she'd seen us jump the last fence "like a bird".
hmm, depends on the beholder i guess.
sorry, rambling here. don't know what i mean by all that. one person's "lunatic stride" is someone else's "seen a great one"... as long as the horse believes in it, of course... and as long as the luck holds.
 
lec I think there are many riders who live in their own little bubble, and have a gaggle of people around them telling them how wonderful they are, regardless of whether their results and the number of horses they break (physically or mentally) tell them otherwise.

(I'm gutted to think I might not get to Badminton again, but hey ho, I love eventing and love my horses, so I'm sure I'll get over it!)
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TarrSteps wasn't it Lady Hugh Russell who used to put the fear of god into Ginny, Lucinda et al? I normally know when I've ridden badly as I'm my own harshest critic, but I'd be more than happy if someone pointed it out to me so I could go away and work on it. Maybe clone Lucinda Green, then make everyone who wishes to move up a level be assessed by her before they are allowed to do so?
 
I think you will get to Badminton again but you need to play the game. No more advanced classes instead concntrate on FEI comps and a lot more travelling. My trainer went to Luhmuhlen for first 4* came 4th and bingo then has enough points for next 2 years.
 
In terms of experienced/pro riders being more likely to have these horrific falls than crap riders like me, isn't this just a numbers game? They ride more horses in more events so statistically are more likely to have a fall? It's like saying 'sales reps who clock up over 1000 miles a week are worse drivers because they have more crashes than someone who drives 2 miles to the shops each week'. They may well be (can't make that kind of judgement off this information), but then again they may just be exposed to the risk more often, surely?

The other thing to think is, I simply cannot afford to hunt and event. I don't have the money, I have to choose. My horse has never hunted, but he has a fifth, and sometimes a sixth leg. To the point that when I had a fall doing my first Novice, the BE technical advisor returned the horse with the dire warning that there was no way that wasn't a horse fall and I needed to check with the fence judges before continuing. The horse never came close to falling (have it on vid) and in fact landed cleanly. So hunting is not the be all and end all.

Watching events this year, it has become apparent to me that lots of people who are not the required standard are having a go. I think people need to be accredited before being able to compete and they need to be assessed before moving up from PN to Novice and Novice to Intermediate. Thankfully BE seem reasonably proactive in pulling people from going XC if they are not good enough (at least round here from the rumours I have heard).
 
As to your "same stride, different response" example, it does point up one of the real problems in addressing many of the concerns - subjectivity. Who is to say the first woman was as qualified as Mark Todd's wife and a good rider in her own right to judge? But then again, who is to say it looked the same, even if you remember (memory is not reliable) it feeling the same? In the first incident you were a novice, riding an unknown horse. In the second you were much further along in your experience and riding a horse equally so. Who is to say you weren't looser in the leg or otherwise obviously less secure in the first case? Whose to say the mare's eyes weren't like saucers and you were just too young to realise it?

I won a couple of events where I also did very scary things, looking back, so people were quite right to take me to task. Perhaps even more so because I was far more likely to win my way out or think I was the bee's knees than someone at the back of the pack. (Lucinda actually did the opposite for me. My nice horse was a LUNATIC in the warm up and everyone kept telling me I had to fix it. I took him to a Lucinda clinic specifically to ask her about it and she said, "Look at Badminton, lots of horses at that level are like that. You're not being judged there and don't mess with him before xc. Learn how to manage him and be grateful you have such a nice horse!" She also told me I had "great rapport with my horse" which I think was a nice way of saying he was bailing me out a whole lot more than he should have needed to!)

This is the issue and I don't really know the solution. It used to be that experienced people in the sport - Lady Hugh Russell etc. - had almost carte blanche to speak to up and coming riders (hopefully in private 'though not always). Maybe the shock of recent events will allow people to feel free to speak candidly again.

It's tough, though. I have not been to many events here but the last one I attended I saw someone coaching an obviously older novice rider on a VERY nice, clearly experienced horse. It was pretty much obvious the horse knew more than both the people together. The coach was asking for some very odd things and ignoring some very basic issues but the horse was making up for it, often by simply ignoring it. I'm obviously not in a position to comment,having no status here (although at home I might have been tempted to have a word with the coach or, better yet, whomever had some control over the coach) but surely other people around saw the same? I really fear for that rider because she is EXACTLY who we're talking about - a rider who has means, looks the part at least on the flat when things are going well, has a very nice, capable horse, and has almost no experience or even awareness of the risks. AND she's got a person in authority telling her it's okay to do some of the not okay things they were doing in the warmup. Yikes . . . (And she got a place, I believe.)
 
i'd love to know who that coach was...
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fwiw there are people out there who aren't afraid to call a spade a spade. Mark Phillips is obviously one. my new trainer is another - she told me that two of her pupils had entered for Intro/PN BE events a week or so ago and she made them withdraw - they just weren't ready/good enough yet.
that's fine as long as they keep their faith in her, and don't decide to go to someone else who will flatter them, tell them they're fine, advise them to run, in order to keep their business... plenty of people like that around.
 
There have been some very thoughtful posts and some good ideas/possible solutions.

Let's hope the Powers That Be in BE are looking too.
 
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